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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:43 am 


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Despatche wrote:
I would agree, but making games more "accessible" is no longer about being less harsh and encouraging people to get better. Now, it's about the kind of garbage masterfrog worships. This is why I've said before that we need to redefine what it means to be less harsh and more encouraging; we have to trick people out of what they've been tricked into.

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying here. (I'll probably expand on this later but I don't have time right now)

Edit: Too lazy to repeat what I've said before
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Last edited by Shepardus on Sun May 29, 2016 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:16 am 



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Play Darius, you have a shield there so no one hit death, do you even know Darius right?

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:53 am 


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Quote:
Shooters are so busy proving that they are shooters (in other words... stg developers are so busy proving that they are legit), that they have forgotten that they are also supposed to be games and that, ultimately, the game should meet the needs of the player, rather than giving the player requirements and dealing out life and death on a whim.


Quote:
The genre never changes... and this is why it has become a niche.
When someone attempts innovation, those in the niche reject it as "not being a real shooter"... and you lose the support of the niche and the game fails...


Quote:
However, for the average joe, the shmup genre remains inaccessible and unappealing due to its perceived (even if this perception is skewed) difficulty level.
Then there's the shmup fans... :P


Quote:
But, it's the fans of these shmups that have been driving demand for the genre, the ones that are buying the same exact game over and over again with different colors and scoring systems, that have been stifling the genre and keeping it in a rut for all of these years.



So is this really the point you're trying to make here?
"What you guys like is problematic because I and others don't enjoy it as it is now!" we've seen how that goes, and you're attempting the same idiotic approach.
You never even specified from whose perspective you're talking about when you see this as a "problem", and it's kind of hindering the discussion, just like you not answering to any of my posts.

Why would we, current shmup fans, want to start sacrificing things from the genre (that we find fun)? Why do YOU want to pick a niche genre and start changing it for the sake of mass-appeal? Why are you even discussing this? This "experiment" of yours is something seen in shmup discussions all the time, you're not as enlightened as you think and are proving nothing nor making a good experiment with this thread.

Seriously man, try to answer my questions here. It's not that hard.

Also your shmup experience is so hilariously shallow and misguided that I don't know where to start. You sound like a grandma talking about a computer. Sure, there's probably a market for grandma-friendly computers, but that's not what your average computer user wants his shit to be adjusted to, much like how non-cocky casual shmups are not what the average shmup fans want their games to be like. It's really simple, and there's nothing even remotely hipsterish about this and you're not smart for figuring this out with your experiment.

I will again suggest you to play the games and not ragequit like a baby when you lose. Try to clear, try to get a high score. Try to find out why shmup players value the genre instead of quitting and complaining at the first sights of discomfort.
What you're doing right now is like if I played some platformer, lost and didn't like it, went to a platfromer forum and made a post 'The problem with platformers as a genre', explained that the genre is too cocky and the players are wrong for enjoying it, and then act like a revolutionary genius when people protest. :lol:
And in that state, I would be smart enough to not try to make a platformer or think that I'm even qualified to talk about them sensibly. (Besides "you just move and jump" which is equivalent to "you just shoot and dodge").

Literally EVERY sub-genre of entertainment could be enhanced from the perspective of people that don't currently like it, and shmups are no different. Usually the fans of these genres would also not like to start changing things just for the sake of wider appeal. How isn't this obvious to you? :lol: You don't need to make threads about it to figure it out.
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Last edited by Cagar on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:06 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Most people should stay away from shmups. Especially millenials and up.


But who will play shmups when this forum's people would retire?
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:30 am 


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:31 am 


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qmish wrote:
Xyga wrote:
Most people should stay away from shmups. Especially millenials and up.

But who will play shmups when this forum's people would retire?

The genre will die some day or at least enter indefinite coma, to the point there will be only one new very average game released - worldwide - every year, or two, or three if not much more.
Even diehard retroplayers who basically make the life of the community and now also sometimes the production, will also disappear for various reasons, the whole thing will shrink to smaller-than-niche level to remain a vague curiosity only an extremely small number of people on Earth will continue to care about (old men with grey hair and a belly, indeed).
Even the internet didn't change that things make their time and some day fade to oblivion, only archived knowledge might last a very long time, c'est la vie...

But I see no point and no future in trying to question and change the genre, shmups have occupied their own natural space in the world of video games for decades, and most of it has been explored, beyond its natural limits it's not shmups anymore, you'd have to name a new genre.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:33 am 


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Oh.

I was just asking about how to seed love to shmups in new generations of players. By the way, as much as i dislike Underfail (though i like it's music and that spider girl), i hope at least some of its fans decided to go and play "real shmups" after that.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:56 am 


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qmish wrote:
I was just asking about how to seed love to shmups in new generations of players.

Nothing we do will be enough, there'll always be a few young newcomers and resurgences, but always for a particular reason that leaves the essence of the genre standing second, or third, or even lower position as a motivation to play.

Touhou is one example of that, even though it attracted and produced a number of excellent players over time, its reason to be and why it attracted so many people is before everything the Touhou universe. I don't see in what way it really benefited the genre historically speaking, since it became more like a branch with is own characteristics, a cousin, almost completely detached from the rest of the games and players crowd/family.

Every little thing that created a 'shmup buzz' outside of the traditional production and players base, from the Ikaruga thing to 'hardest boss video', has been mostly that: a temporary interest, a trend.
It's too fickle to make the GENRE become actually popular and industry-worthy again, we just can't reproduce that today, it would require a fucking miracle.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 12:57 pm 


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pop music is set apart by many things including arrangements, composition and vocals.

arcade STG are set apart by many things including stage/boss design, mechanics and artstyles.

you'd have to be a complete moron to think that following either of the above's norms results in everything being the same. OP, you are unbelievably stupid. there's a difference between structure or norms, and content. that you fail to recognize something so simple is baffling.

you gloss over mechanics completely in every post you've made. shmups that aren't mechanically different, unless they're exceptionally well made, are pretty much bound to be forgotten. just look at the hordes of toaplan/raiden/gradius/euroshmup/generic danmaku clone games. They almost never enter the consciousness of even fans of the genre, let alone a larger audience. you don't understand that games usually become beloved largely because they are different. you also cannot just totally gloss over the differences in art and sound design, stage design and boss patterns. all of it fits together to create unique games, you're just acting all high and mighty because you don't like the typical game structure. 1 hit kills, 5 or 6 stages, maybe a loop. this is tried and true because guess what, short bursts of fun is fun. it's that simple. STGs don't lend themselves well for playing your ass off like many other genres do, leave that to the hardcore. most people will burn out fast when they try to play a pure action game that's fast paced and intensely challenging. it's also fucking hard to create exceptional action content. short length with a focus on making every second of gameplay as purely fun as possible, that's shmups in a nutshell.

there are many, many more or less experimental STG that try something new or different. like most games or things in general, they will struggle to enter people's consciousness. your harsh judgements are based on nothing but your own ignorance. i don't believe that there's anything wrong with trying something new and eschewing the popular structures and norms, either, that should be encouraged (i am HUGE on games that do something radically different) but when people start talking about how shmups should be casualized to fit the tastes of a wider audience, then that ticks me off because 1. it's not simple or easy and it will nearly always result in a spectacular failure. shmups are pretty much completely the opposite of what most gamers want. any of the popular ideas people like you always have to casualize shmups more (more content, healthbars, etc) are antithetic to good design. 2. i'm firmly against the idea that more somehow accessible to a wider audience = better. just no fucking way. the basics of shooters are shooting and dodging. there's so fucking much that's been done with that. why would you just throw all of that in the bin? i'm amazed you have the gall to think you're a fan, you're just another self entitled gamer nobody who doesn't get action games whatsoever. go to a fighting game, racer game, side scroller forum, say the same things you have here. i doubt you'll get much better responses. you're one of those people who would say all reggae, hip hop or heavy metal sounds the same, too, and that they have to adapt more and incorporate outside influences instead of trying different things within their own spheres.

fucking gamers are so damn entitled, anyone can tell this guy has absolutely no clue what he's talking about, routinely ignoring so many key details, yet he acts like he's reached enlightenment.

seriously don't even understand that action games are meant to be fun. that the thrill of playing action games is meant to be enjoyable. you don't understand that the problem lies with you, you don't like STG and you came here to complain about it, nothing you're saying is any news, there's been hordes of entitled ignorants before you saying the same things. shooters are more alive than you think, too. numerous, numerous people are pouring their love into these games. niché it may be and there's nothing wrong with it. if you want something that combines some element of STG with other stuff (like undertale or that gungeon thing) then just say so. don't go around trying to fool yourself and others with all this bs. and if you actually do want some real STG that are completely different and unique then just open your eyes already and search. there's more out there than fucking radiant silvergun, damn.

tldr: casuals are dumb
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:12 pm 


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Radiant Silvergun does have a sequel by the way.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:32 pm 


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The script says that now we wait for the clueless enlightened one to victimize himself by only responding to the insults of Chum instead of the great points he made.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 2:30 pm 


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Let's not gang up on the kid too much. Enough people have voiced disagreement that I think it's time to ease up before it starts to turn into a mob.

I find some of the things he's said kinda insulting, but hey, we were all 14 once. I wish he'd give some of us an inch and say something like "okay, there's no reason why the games you like and the games I like can't co-exist, so that everyone can be happy", but eh, whatever. I don't wanna make em cry over it or anything.

Froggy, I gave you the best advice I could give on being a game designer, and if you pick up any book on game design or take a class on it, you'll see similar advice being doled out. That's the best I can do. I hope you come to at least respect my tastes and hobby's (as opposed to un-empathetic statements like "what you find fun and exciting shouldn't be made :twisted: "), and I hope you fulfill your dreams of being a game designer. Good luck.


P.S: I would suggest abandoning this topic for a while and thinking long and hard about some of the things some people have said. Don't go for the knee-jerk reaction that we're all just hipsters afraid of change: many of us (myself included) would love to play something genre-straddling and different (see: Undertale again), but at the same time it's incredibly cruel and rude to tell us to stop liking something that we find a unique and cherished source of entertainment, espeically when there's no reason one cannot have BOTH. And please, next time you start a thread like this, whatever forum or topic it may be on, be more humble. I tried to restrain myself as best I could while staying honest, but you're not going to get much positive feedback from people in general if you constantly talk down to others and assume you know better then they do. You may not have intended your posts to come off that way, but that's what happened.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:09 pm 


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Look, I'm gonna make this real easy for you.

How many of you have ever coded your own game?

Look up at the forum title... what does it say? It says "development". As in... the iterative process of building a game from prototype, to alpha, to beta and finally to release. This forum is for people "interested in creating new shmups". Wow. That's me!

Let me think... is this forum for people who have played a lot of shmups? Is this forum for people who want to call other people names? Is this forum for people who want to act like a know-it-all and call other people know-it-alls? The answer is... no. It's not for any of those things.

It's cute that you people actually think you can call me stupid... like, adorable. I get it. You're bored. Nothing to do, maybe moderation is light here. I don't know. But hey, here's a game we can all play. What have you ever personally done that demonstrates your intelligence or qualifies you to speak authoritatively on... well, anything at all?

I know it's unusual for somebody to question you rather than just debating endlessly the nonsense that you spew, and yet... there it is. Forum posters are generally just talkers, trolls, noise makers. Usually there are some intelligent people who know how to communicate above a middle school level, and this forum only has ONE... and that is Shepardus. Everyone else is basically a herp derp troll. I wanted to see what you guys would say about shmups being a bad genre... and you all came out like a bunch of vagrants who've been living in the streets to throw garbage and hurl insults. Cool. Shmups are dying, you guys are lame and nobody cares.

I know you want a flame war sooo bad. You just need it. You gotta get that hate fuel to make you feel good about yourself. Maybe the next numb nuts who wanders in here will give you the show you're after... but your petty antics and childlike name calling literally does nothing but make me judge you, extremely harshly as not being all that bright.

So, I'm going to go back to working on games now... been real fun. Keep it going. This is going someplace productive, I can feel it.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:20 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Every little thing that created a 'shmup buzz' outside of the traditional production and players base, from the Ikaruga thing to 'hardest boss video', has been mostly that: a temporary interest, a trend.
It's too fickle to make the GENRE become actually popular and industry-worthy again, we just can't reproduce that today, it would require a fucking miracle.


...Because shmups were designed for no other purpose than to eat quarters and have always been targeted at guys who like to show-off.

Now there are no quarters and nobody gives a flying fuck about high scores.

Whatever virtues the genre had, insane action, beautiful patterns, imaginative boss designs... has all been replicated in other genres and taken to new levels.

It's over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZjviMmXIY8


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:26 pm 


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I am a c++ programmer and a computer science student, and I am indeed coding my own shmup game as well as my own war/strategy game.

It seems your post above implies some insults towards me, so I guess it was a waste of time stretching out the olive branch *shrugs*

Oh look, another response while I was typing, I'll give one more shot.

Quote:
...Because shmups were designed for no other purpose than to eat quarters and have always been targeted at guys who like to show-off.

Now there are no quarters and nobody gives a flying fuck about high scores.

Whatever virtues the genre had, insane action, beautiful patterns, imaginative boss designs... has all been replicated in other genres and taken to new levels.

It's over.


They aren't replicated, the fundamental feel is always unique. Shmups will always have their own corner, just as every type of game and every sub-genre of every genre will always have its own corner. As long as one person with a computer has a fun idea for a new one, and one person has a hankering to try out a new one, they and everything else will always keep getting made. There is nothing wrong with this, more power and more choice to more people.

And some of us still enjoy scoring just for the sake of doing it, even if the community is small (or even if nobody else but oneself plays the game). It's not about showing off, it's about the excitement of the game.

Nothing is ever over. Everything is unique. Remember this.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:33 pm 


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High suspicion now of him being one of us, or some angry returnee who created this account just to fuck with shmupsfarm. 8)
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:49 pm 


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masterfrog wrote:
Look up at the forum title... what does it say? It says "development". (...) Let me think... is this forum for people who have played a lot of shmups?

Of course it is. Without having played and analyzed a lot of examples of your genre of choice (you know, to find out what works and what doesn't and why) you can't expect to make a somewhat decent game of any genre. This is doubly true if you aspire to actually transcend genre boundaries.

Otherwise you end up with something like the infamous euroshmups of the 16-bit era, which actually tried to 'enhance' the gameplay in the way you seem to have in mind, for example by adding shops (Xenon 2, Blood Money) or gving the player a lot of options for customizing his ship (X-Out), but failed to get the core gameplay right, because their makers weren't actually well-versed in the genre.

You can be sure that the vast majority of developers in this forum are also avid players of shmups.

masterfrog wrote:
I wanted to see what you guys would say about shmups being a bad genre...

Erm... why? And what reaction did you expect? You go on a forum for fans of a certain genre, tell them what they like is crap. Did you expect them to say: "Thank you. You're right. We were wrong all the time." Of course they disagree with you to varying degrees.

masterfrog wrote:
Shmups are dying, you guys are lame and nobody cares.

Since what you seem to suggest is suicide for fear of death, I'd rather wait for shmups to die of natural causes.

masterfrog wrote:
I know you want a flame war sooo bad. You just need it.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. So far the answers have been quite polite, even surprisingly so if you take your own rather hostile attitude into account.


Xyga wrote:
High suspicion now of him being one of us, or some angry returnee who created this account just to fuck with shmupsfarm.

I agree that this is highly likely. I was actually having Icy flashbacks when reading the last few posts. Reading his responses in the other two development threads makes me think differently, though. They seem genuine to me.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:19 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I am a c++ programmer and a computer science student, and I am indeed coding my own shmup game as well as my own war/strategy game.

It seems your post above implies some insults towards me, so I guess it was a waste of time stretching out the olive branch *shrugs*

Oh look, another response while I was typing, I'll give one more shot.

Quote:
...Because shmups were designed for no other purpose than to eat quarters and have always been targeted at guys who like to show-off.

Now there are no quarters and nobody gives a flying fuck about high scores.

Whatever virtues the genre had, insane action, beautiful patterns, imaginative boss designs... has all been replicated in other genres and taken to new levels.

It's over.


They aren't replicated, the fundamental feel is always unique. Shmups will always have their own corner, just as every type of game and every sub-genre of every genre will always have its own corner. As long as one person with a computer has a fun idea for a new one, and one person has a hankering to try out a new one, they and everything else will always keep getting made. There is nothing wrong with this, more power and more choice to more people.

And some of us still enjoy scoring just for the sake of doing it, even if the community is small (or even if nobody else but oneself plays the game). It's not about showing off, it's about the excitement of the game.

Nothing is ever over. Everything is unique. Remember this.


Okay, fine. You're not so bad. Shmups are what they are. I like the power the ships have, but the difficulty that seems standard in the genre is a bit much. It's kind of like Megaman games. Always liked Megaman. Mad respect for Megaman. Megaman games are too fucking hard, though... and hey, look at that. The series is dead.

I find it fascinating that people still insist upon difficulty when it so clearly kills games chances of popularity.

Funny, I think you coding shmups in C++ is fitting. Old-fashioned language, old-fashioned gameplay... both supposedly unmatched in their awesomeness for some intangible reason, but in reality, there are other ways to go and they're pretty awesome if you try 'em. C# is the best language ever, when you embrace it. But a lot of people who started in C++ still insist upon C++, even though advances in technology have rendered it old hat. Much like shmups, C++ had its time when the hardware was different than what it is now. These days, it makes sense to use higher level languages that make development faster. To each his own, though. I think you need to be able to code in C/C++ to be an effective C# programmer, but I can't imagine going back to C++ for any reason. Anyway, that is amusing to me.

Shmups may have a few hits in the future, just like pure C still has some usefulness. But C/C++ has been left in the past and the world has joyfully moved on. Just because something isn't over, over... doesn't mean you have to stay with it. There's no shame in abandoning a sinking ship. There will always be die-hard people who stay to the bitter end... and even after that. I like shooting stuff but I am already seeing that flying around shooting in space is limiting. I'm beginning to think that a better direction for shooters is twin-stick style action, and bring it to top-down, on the ground level action. I mean, hell, all this flighty space business was a cool as hell gimmick back in the 90's, but these days everyone can do it. Maybe this is just the end of a very long, very prolific tangent... definitely what it seems like to me. The shmup genre will never be as popular as platformers, fps or puzzle games. Golden age is definitely gone.

At any rate, it seems like you guys have had this discussion a million times before, so no need to keep beating a dead horse.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:21 pm 


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Herr Schatten wrote:
So far the answers have been quite polite, even surprisingly so if you take your own rather hostile attitude into account.


It's fitting that your avatar is a horse, since you seem to be wearing a pair of blinders.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:24 pm 


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Megaman isn't a whole video game genre. By the same logic Sonic being dead means that Sonic games were too hard. Or Spyro games. Or Crash games. All video game franchises that died out because that's what tends to happen to those.

I don't really care what you think about shmups as a whole, it's not the most alive genre in video games and even people here tend to talk more about it than actually play it. But comparing a genre with a franchise doesn't make much sense, especially when only the first couple games were actually hard and it got easier as the whole thing went on.
In general you don't seem to understand that no one here cares about higher accessibility to the genre but for some reason you keep pushing just that, which doesn't make sense either. Not to mention that you clearly don't understand why shmups are "liked" around here. If you want to talk about something, any topic in particular, you should at the very least have a basic understanding of what you want to talk about but that doesn't seem to be given in this case, unfortunately.


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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:27 pm 


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masterfrog wrote:
I find it fascinating that people still insist upon difficulty when it so clearly kills games chances of popularity.


That's why I prefer for all games (in general) to have multiple difficulty selections, so everyone from little babies to reflex-worn grandpa's can play.

This is also (one of the reasons) why deeper scoring systems were developed. To allow greater optional challenges to exist for those who wanted to get more mileage, depth, and replay value out of the game.

masterfrog wrote:
Shmups may have a few hits in the future, just like pure C still has some usefulness. But C/C++ has been left in the past and the world has joyfully moved on. Just because something isn't over, over... doesn't mean you have to stay with it.


I play shmups and I play new stuff. It's not either or. All these games, in all these different genres, all channel a different feel and style with each of their unique mechanics. There are certain design philosophies I'm more partial to then others (for example, I prefer small amounts randomness in ai and enemy pattern design over static patterns, because I enjoy the feeling of improvising and using my brain on the fly), but I generally try to keep an open mind and try out everything. To me, the arcade-style "single sitting" style of design is not better or worse then a full length adventure (like Dark Souls or something), they're simply different flavors. Just like 2d combat is always inherently different from 3d combat, but never better or worse.

But like I said, shmups are unique. And they scratch a number of fundamental itches that nothing else does, or can, scratch, due to their unique attributes. There is no need to abandon them or to abandon anything else. Diversity is good.















(btw I also do C#. I like C in general, but C++ was what I learned first due to senior advice).
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Last edited by Squire Grooktook on Sun May 29, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:32 pm 


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masterfrog wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote:
So far the answers have been quite polite, even surprisingly so if you take your own rather hostile attitude into account.


It's fitting that your avatar is a horse, since you seem to be wearing a pair of blinders.


It's fitting that you don't actually recognize what his avatar is, since that appears to be the case with your outlook on shmups as well. :)

masterfrog wrote:
I find it fascinating that people still insist upon difficulty when it so clearly kills games chances of popularity.


There's this game series, a phenomenon even, called Dark Souls? Check that out.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:04 pm 


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masterfrog could rename his nick to masterskip. He literally skips around 90% of points being made that contradict with him, but would push the discussion forwards. Sad

masterfrog wrote:
I wanted to see what you guys would say about shmups being a bad genre...

Haha what a smart "experiment!" :D
I'll try that too. I'll start with a genre that I have barely played, and therefore have very limited knowledge of. I don't like the genre either, I have no idea why the fans of it play it. It's MOBAs. Should I go to Dota or LoL forum? Maybe I'll start my own MOBA after that! Surely that's a good idea!

Seriously, you say that WE are "bored" for calling you out on this idiotic experiment?

Quote:
There's no shame in abandoning a sinking ship. There will always be die-hard people who stay to the bitter end... and even after that.

Quote:
I find it fascinating that people still insist upon difficulty when it so clearly kills games chances of popularity.

How can it be so impossibly hard for you to comprehend, that people like different things?
Do you always get upset when some people like something that is not popular?
Why would we want to sacrifice our own fun for the sake of popularity? Why would anybody want that to happen to their interest?

By the way, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to say that I've done more for the genre than you, if that really is an importance to you.



EDIT:
Quote:
At any rate, it seems like you guys have had this discussion a million times before, so no need to keep beating a dead horse.

It's hilarious when it's you who constantly skips points and questions that contradict with your own, so surely it might feel like 'beating a dead horse' when the subject is not going anywhere thanks to you. I know you'll probably not answer the questions I presented in this post either.
Though you've already shown that you really don't want to discuss things constructively, you just want to repeat your own misguided nonsense regarding the genre and condemn the current playerbase for liking something that isn't popular or to your own tastes, as if we were somehow 'wrong' because of that.
I mean... can't this guy just get banned? Surely this counts as straight up trolling/shitposting? It's almost as pure trolling as trolling can get.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:20 pm 


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Cagar wrote:
masterfrog could rename his nick to masterskip. He literally skips around 90% of points being made that contradict with him, but would push the discussion forwards. Sad


yep, forums in a nutshell.

what, you expected him to address anything?!

better to stay an elitistic ignoramus, of course. i mean, god forbid he'd actually admit to being wrong about something, gasp.

this is classic trolling by someone who is clearly actually being completely honest, guys, and i find that terrifying.

dude's been completely roasted and should go back to wherever he came from. or he could try the same routine in some other niché forum if that's what he's into. hay kvlt guys your grim black metal really needs some trip hop influences and autotune so it can be more popular! all ur rikers sound de same xd

edit: does he really not know what moomins are or is he actually a shitposter and not honest to begin with

i feel like my feelings have been toyed with

how old are you froggy?
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:34 pm 


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Hello, sorry to butt in.

I've read the opening post and wanted to address it. I have only skimmed the rest of the replies, so pardon if I'm retreading something that was already argued to death. I just wanted to give my opinion on what you've said.

For the record, I don't think I'm a hardcore shmup fan. I've never gotten into the genre until about 5 years ago and don't really associate it with arcades because I've never been in a real one, so I just play them to win more than to highscore or anything. I have gotten into the mechanics of shmups more than anything though and I have heard the sentiment that the genre as a whole has been kind of stagnant before.

I think you're right on some level. Shmup as a genre probably has been less transformative than other genres between the nineties and now. It's kept the same basic premise that it had before and the control schema between two vanilla shmups between then and now is probably nigh identical.

It's fair to generalize it as dodging between orbs, in the same vein as people jokingly refer to first person shooters as very fast point and click games. It's likely arguable that the genre has it's own sub-culture that is totally ok with it tho. I think some posts before have already mentioned that maybe it's just what some people like, but I think you refer more to shmups as a genre with mainstream appeal?

If that's the core of your argument then we could focus on it and formulate some ideas with a common ground?
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:57 pm 


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Quote:
I think you're right on some level. Shmup as a genre probably has been less transformative than other genres between the nineties and now.


Of course, that is true. Everyone knows that, that's fine.

It being a "problem" though?
That's absolutely subjective, and this is what OP clearly doesn't understand... seeing how he's making comparisons of optional genres of entertainment vs. functional programming languages, and condemning us for liking something unpopular and old-school as if we were somehow "wrong".

Quote:
I like shooting stuff but I am already seeing that flying around shooting in space is limiting. I'm beginning to think that a better direction for shooters is twin-stick style action, and bring it to top-down, on the ground level action. I mean, hell, all this flighty space business was a cool as hell gimmick back in the 90's, but these days everyone can do it.

Not only are actual "space" themed shmups rare (did Jamestown even have a space stage?), but a better direction is twin-stick style action?
Oh man... You really, really, really don't know much about shmups or their releases these days? You're repeating the same shit as tens of other thick-headed people before you, even on this forum. Like an utterly ignorant robot.
It's really saddening, I don't even mean this as an insult: I'm legit feeling emphatic about the harsh truth you're going to understand some day, and how incredibly stupid you were in this thread.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:05 pm 


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Probably, also true. Though it can be argued as to how much of a problem it is or isn't, or how much it actually matters.

Personally I'm ok with it as it is as a whole, but to be honest, it's always been a thing that bugged me about say, Gradius. Even Gradius V. Even with all the new it still felt a bit old. I don't know if I'm alone in that opinion, but it feels like something worth talking about.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:07 pm 


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Every game feels different to me. Even the smallest design changes create a different experience and playstyle in my eyes. This applies to all genres though, not just shmups.

There's no such thing as right or wrong in the realm of entertainment though. Therefore "problems" are impossible. The only possible problem would be if something that somebody wanted didn't exist. But something existing that you don't like is never a problem. You're the problem, in that case.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:20 pm 


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Aaaalso arguable. Bad design decisions are a problem when they become a trend. That can apply to both new elements that don't work and old ones that outgrow their popularity. It's what decides how many people are willing to play a game, even if they are not the part of the genre's old guard. Specifically concerning this argument, if the mechanics don't go with the times and reduce the interest in the genre they represent, aren't they killing it?

I'm certainly not implying that's the case, tbh. But I would like it to be considered if only because this is the kind of thing that actually spurs new ideas.
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 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:20 pm 


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chum wrote:
Cagar wrote:
masterfrog could rename his nick to masterskip. He literally skips around 90% of points being made that contradict with him, but would push the discussion forwards. Sad


better to stay an elitistic ignoramus, of course. i mean, god forbid he'd actually admit to being wrong about something, gasp.

this is classic trolling by someone who is clearly actually being completely honest, guys, and i find that terrifying.

dude's been completely roasted and should go back to wherever he came from. or he could try the same routine in some other niché forum if that's what he's into. hay kvlt guys your grim black metal really needs some trip hop influences and autotune so it can be more popular! all ur rikers sound de same xd

edit: does he really not know what moomins are or is he actually a shitposter and not honest to begin with

i feel like my feelings have been toyed with


how old are you froggy?


I'm old enough to have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. In all seriousness... there are reasons why I don't respond to certain people, while I do to others and why it all feels like a big troll, but I'm actually being serious and getting people to talk and share ideas. It's called leading a discussion, I've been doing this a long, long time and there are certain children who don't like to play nice... like you. You aren't worth responding to directly unless I want to turn the entire discussion into a pile of steaming garbage where everybody else feels left out. Why? Because people who insist upon attacking the OP, insist upon throwing themselves in front and becoming the center of attention by derailing the entire discussion are big, wailing babies who demand recognition for the fits that they are throwing. Meanwhile, more mild-mannered (and always more intelligent) people actually try to stay on topic and ignore the personal back-and-forth and dick measuring that is going on. It's a delicate balance you have to strike if you want to keep everyone somewhat engaged. Be fucking honest. Are you not entertained?

Okay, then.

This has been a nice distraction. It has led me to question whether or not the shmup genre is inherently shit, or if it just is only for a certain group of gamers and I am definitely not a part of that group. I think it's probably a combination, 60% not my cup of tea, 40% the genre is just not the most fun, in general.

Honestly, people... something that has never made sense to me... if you hate me, my attitude, the things I have to say SO much then do what you do when somebody posts a game asking for feedback here on these forums and ignore me.

:twisted:


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