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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:38 pm 


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Yes, and that's exactly what we're discussing, Panasonic's OLED technology is not even good enough to make regular OLED panels, so the idea that they could build the much more difficult transparent panels is a bit much.

Panasonic certainly is working on dual-layer LCDs, and the technology is promising, at least in terms of contrast ratios, but Panasonic is hardly alone in working on it. HiSense also has two dual-layer TVs coming to market at the same time, using a 960x1080 backlight LCD layer to provide one million local dimming zones. This is far less than the full 4K backlight layer that Panasonic MegaCon is usinG (what a terrible name, that), but I'd imagine HiSense's approach will be dramatically cheaper, and as such will make it into far more homes. Especially since HiSense is a budget Chinese brand, and consumers may wonder why they should pay for Panasonic's display if they can get HiSense's almost-as-good solution for much cheaper, or LG's OLEDs for a bit more expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:41 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Still, if they can make the image decent and the display transparent enough when not in use, maybe these are the bedroom and living room windows of the future. It would be a great space saver. I'd put a TV in my kitchen window and glass shower partition.


I would be concerned about what UV is doing to the tech with the sun beating on it everyday.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 am 


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Just been announced a l that LG 9 series of OLEDs are now going to be Gsync compatible. Glad I just picked up 77c9 last week.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:59 am 


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LG's press release: http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2019/09/lg-un ... xperience/

nVidia's press release: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/ne ... en-gaming/

The TVs will only support g-sync on nVidia's Turing cards, so the 1600 and 2000 series. What's actually happening is that nVidia is adding HDMI VRR support to Turing cards despite them only being HDMI 2.0 (HDMI VRR was added in the HDMI 2.1 spec), and presumably LG is making some firmware tweaks to allow VRR on HDMI 2.0 connections too.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:23 am 


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Waiting on HDMI 2.1 cards, but very glad to see this level of support for VRR so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:22 pm 


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I thought VRR support is bandwidth limited at HDMI 2.0 ~18 . Wouldn't there be some kind of resolution trade-off or something?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
I thought VRR support is bandwidth limited at HDMI 2.0 ~18 . Wouldn't there be some kind of resolution trade-off or something?


No. In general, we're just dynamically changing the amount of lines in vblank each frame.
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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:49 pm 


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The LG 2019 OLEDs don't support 120Hz at higher than 1440p, as I understand it. Full 4K120 may work if you had an HDMI 2.1 GPU, which doesn't currently exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:05 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
The LG 2019 OLEDs don't support 120Hz at higher than 1440p, as I understand it. Full 4K120 may work if you had an HDMI 2.1 GPU, which doesn't currently exist.



That's OK, neither does most consoles and PCs in 2019. Current consoles can barely manage 4k 60hz (if you're lucky) and only the very top spec PC's can take advantage of higher refresh rates with the res set to 4k. There is practically zero broadcast or streaming services offering higher refresh rates and movies are still 24fps. So it's probably hard to convince LGs execs that it's what a majority of customers want now.

On the other hand, these new TV's seem to incorporate a bunch of features that hardly anyone can take advantage of yet. This "build it and they'll come" approach has not been particularly effective. The majority of content is still 1080p or less and where is all the HDR stuff? Meanwhile, Samsung is already selling 8k tv's like they haven't even noticed that nobody's with them.

As a side note, any 4k display capable of 60hz should have the bandwidth for 1080p 120hz. So, when 8k tv's become the norm, 120hz 4k should be the norm for most TVs too.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:26 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Still, if they can make the image decent and the display transparent enough when not in use, maybe these are the bedroom and living room windows of the future. It would be a great space saver. I'd put a TV in my kitchen window and glass shower partition.


I would be concerned about what UV is doing to the tech with the sun beating on it everyday.


Good point. That could be a serious barrier to it being used for exterior windows. Any sort of film I ever left out in the sun got destroyed by it eventually.

The window tint films used on car windows are obviously made with the UV protection to last in the sun but they still fade with time. The adhesive used to attach them is a different story. Heat softens glue and these displays are comprised of multiple layers held in place with a transparent adhesive.

The adhesives made for outdoor advertising materials last longer in direct sun than most but people expect expensive TVs to last more than 4-7 years. Maybe this is one they are pitched as a "life-style piece". If they can't be used in windows then what else could they be aside from style over function.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:19 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:

The adhesives made for outdoor advertising materials last longer in direct sun than most but people expect expensive TVs to last more than 4-7 years. Maybe this is one they are pitched as a "life-style piece". If they can't be used in windows then what else could they be aside from style over function.


Well, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I assumed this was at the root of current use-case scenarios for the tech. I've seen concepts advertised for the shower door to check the stock market and kitchen use to look at recipes online. That kind of stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:40 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
The LG 2019 OLEDs don't support 120Hz at higher than 1440p, as I understand it. Full 4K120 may work if you had an HDMI 2.1 GPU, which doesn't currently exist.



That's OK, neither does most consoles and PCs in 2019. Current consoles can barely manage 4k 60hz (if you're lucky) and only the very top spec PC's can take advantage of higher refresh rates with the res set to 4k. There is practically zero broadcast or streaming services offering higher refresh rates and movies are still 24fps. So it's probably hard to convince LGs execs that it's what a majority of customers want now.

On the other hand, these new TV's seem to incorporate a bunch of features that hardly anyone can take advantage of yet. This "build it and they'll come" approach has not been particularly effective. The majority of content is still 1080p or less and where is all the HDR stuff? Meanwhile, Samsung is already selling 8k tv's like they haven't even noticed that nobody's with them.

As a side note, any 4k display capable of 60hz should have the bandwidth for 1080p 120hz. So, when 8k tv's become the norm, 120hz 4k should be the norm for most TVs too.


Everyone is kind of assuming with a wait and see attitude that the 2019 LG's will fully support HDMI 2.1 once devices outputting it start coming out.

A number of older games can definitely run at 4K 120Hz without the absolute high-end GPUs, or settings can be turned down and resolution slightly lowered to further increase the frame rate. Combined with VRR, you can hit 90 FPS and still see an appreciable difference.

No need to count your chickens before they hatch of course- I want to see an actual reviewer confirm that an HDMI 2.1 GPU works fine with a 2019 LG with all of the expected features before I'd plan to buy either. But 4K 120Hz is useful today with some tweaking (and still a not insignificant investment, but that's PC gaming for you).


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:20 am 



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vol.2 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:

The adhesives made for outdoor advertising materials last longer in direct sun than most but people expect expensive TVs to last more than 4-7 years. Maybe this is one they are pitched as a "life-style piece". If they can't be used in windows then what else could they be aside from style over function.


Well, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I assumed this was at the root of current use-case scenarios for the tech. I've seen concepts advertised for the shower door to check the stock market and kitchen use to look at recipes online. That kind of stuff.


I've seen transparent lcd screens and clear projector screens advertised for years (in my digital signage business) but I have never seen a major outdoor facing implementation. It's one of those things people see as cool but ultimately impracticable.

The obvious potential use is window advertising but the reality is that clear screens are somewhere between hard and impossible to see in direct sunlight. So who would really buy one? They make even less sense for shop windows if they need to switch to opaque to use them.

Pitching it as a lifestyle piece is probably the only way they'd be able to sell them at the silly high prices they'll no doubt want. "it doesn't have to have a practical application or make sense, interior designers will mount them at the end of rich people's beds".

It's certainly not the first time someone has tried to sell clear TV screens. This image is well over 10 years old:

Image

I've still never met anyone who uses one at home or at work though. I'm not sure using Oled tech changes it's real world desirability. We didn't buy clear lcd or projection TVs because they seem like a novelty product.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:13 pm 


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Sony is launching sales of their microled TVs. 4K at the low, low starting price of only $720,000!

But don't worry, you can get a 1080p TV for only 180 thousand.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14883/so ... -consumers


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:22 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Sony is launching sales of their microled TVs. 4K at the low, low starting price of only $720,000!


I suppose the hope is that they manage to get the size and price to a reasonable level. It could be that Sony's lack of showing in the OLED consumer market is due to a corporate preference for the micro led tech in the long run. There are certainly advantages if they can properly mature the process technology.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:22 pm 


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Samsung has already demonstrated a 75" 4K prototype, so they've already got the size down to consumer levels. They just need to work on getting the manufacturing process down to consumer-level pricing.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:31 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Samsung has already demonstrated a 75" 4K prototype, so they've already got the size down to consumer levels. They just need to work on getting the manufacturing process down to consumer-level pricing.


Yeah, I was just gonna say that I thought Samsung were the furthest along with consumer micro-led. Sony seemed to have pulled out of the TV manufacturing business. Their current TVs are made with other companies panels. I wasn't even aware they were working on new consumer display tech until I saw this:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14883/so ... -consumers

I see no issue with a new display tech starting in larger sizes to replace traditional projector based home theaters. Smaller sizes are already well taken care of with Oled. But... a minimum of 220" for a 4k set makes it unlikely that it will go in anyone's house. Even if you had 9 foot ceilings you'd struggle to fit a TV that large. My 110" screen filled 7/8 of my living room wall (floor to ceiling).

The pricing too makes it hard to take seriously. I don't know how rich you'd have to be to invest $720,000 on a new TV but I suspect the market is hyper-limited. If they sell any, it will probably be large commercial installations like the outdoor digital signage already done with regular led panels. Maybe Goldman Sachs will install one in their lobby to show important stuff like the news....


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:07 pm 


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That much is okay for private millionaires, and pocket money to billionaires, and there's never been more in history.

Though I imagine they're more interested in actual theatres with the highest quality projection.

Filthy rich people don't give a damn about TV or video games anyway (well their kids maybe, just a little while)
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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:24 am 


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Can you even call it "micro-led" when you're talking 220" for a 4K display?

That's 3840 pixels in 4.87 metres, or 1.27mm per LED. It's near the borderline, but you can find regular LEDs under that size.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:47 am 



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Guspaz wrote:
Can you even call it "micro-led" when you're talking 220" for a 4K display?

That's 3840 pixels in 4.87 metres, or 1.27mm per LED. It's near the borderline, but you can find regular LEDs under that size.

My understanding is that, yes, they can call it that, because it's still smaller than your typical LED; presumably a similarly-structured display using what's widely-available now would be even larger. It's not like they're only using a handful to backlight an LCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:10 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
Can you even call it "micro-led" when you're talking 220" for a 4K display?

That's 3840 pixels in 4.87 metres, or 1.27mm per LED. It's near the borderline, but you can find regular LEDs under that size.


There is definitely not the clear water between existing fine pitch led signage and Sony's micro-led tv's that you'd expect. Pitches have been getting finer on led panels for years and the current crop is already sufficiently fine that you can't tell if it's an led pitch or a large LCD from a reasonable distance.

The problem is that people get a lot closer to the screen in their homes. While micro-led will offer superior contrast to any existing projection tech, we don't really know how far you need to be from the screen to not see individual pixels and the gaps between panels.
At 220", the pixel density is not that great even with a 4k image.

Perhaps the more worrying aspect for Sony is that Samsung have already demonstrated a 140" 4k micro-led. And it's similarly modular so it can match any size needed and with greater pixel density. You have to wonder if Sony are a day late and a dollar short... again..


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 Post subject: Re: Gaming on 77" Oled
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:24 pm 



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I just read up on Samsung's 2019 micro-led demo of their 75" 4k version. If you believe everything that is said, they also have some crazy ideas on pricing:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/6/18168 ... y-ces-2019

They only want $100,000 for their 219" model (which makes Sony's pricing seem even more insane). Given the modular nature of these things, the assumption is that the 75" will cost "tens of thousands of dollars". Given that I just spent less than $4000 to put a 77" Oled in my living room, Samsung's micro-led would literally have to blow Oled out the water to attract that kind of cash.

This "same great blacks but with higher brightness" pitch won't cut it. Micro-led might well be brighter but Oled is already capable of greater brightness than my eyes can tolerate. Nobody looks at my TV and says "that's a bit dim". Any extra brightness would only be of help with outdoor advertising. Samsung claims that burn in will not be an issue but, LG claims the same about Oled. So, we'll see.

I really hope one of them figures out how to make micro-led tv's at sensible prices. We need the competition to make sure we can afford one of LG's larger rollable Oleds and I really want a micro-led TV made of modular 480 line panels so it can double as an awesome vintage gaming monitor.


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