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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:56 am 


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Would it be good to make a different thread with some simple "try this generalized process" steps, along with some known moddable TVs with notes? This is all assuming a prelude where CRT safety is stressed, etc.
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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:05 pm 



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 13
Voultar wrote:
capsulej wrote:
Well, I gave this a try on my MW24FN1R and I couldn't get it to do much more than give me a blank screen. I lifted the RGB pins on the IC out of the circuit (not fun btw, very small pins) and did the 0.1uf cap/75 ohm resistor setup and +5v to blanking like Voultair suggested. I may try it with 10uf caps but im all out for now, will have to order more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0j8MA ... w?ths=true


OSD_Y is your blanking, that's what you should be tying your low voltage source to.


Yep, I used pin 59, and tied it to the 5V from a console scart cable. When I turn the console on the screen just goes black. I tried removing the cap/resistors and even soldering directly to the pins on a ps1, just to see if it was the scart cable, but it did the same thing. Shouldn't I at least get some sort of signal?

Speaking of which, should i still be able to see the osd? I mean i can see it when the console is off but everything is black. Im assimg thats because i pulled out all of the colors when i lifted the pins?


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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:08 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
capsulej wrote:
Well, I gave this a try on my MW24FN1R and I couldn't get it to do much more than give me a blank screen. I lifted the RGB pins on the IC out of the circuit (not fun btw, very small pins) and did the 0.1uf cap/75 ohm resistor setup and +5v to blanking like Voultair suggested. I may try it with 10uf caps but im all out for now, will have to order more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0j8MA ... w?ths=true


I hate lifting pins on ICs. Some mods leave me no choice and when that happens I almost always end up breaking the leg completely off and soldering to a stump buried in the IC. If you can follow the traces (or better yet the schematic) and remove all components that are inline upstream of your pins, that is a much easier way to isolate. If you can avoid touching any legs of the IC you will make your modding life much easier.

For example on my Zenith I removed all the SMD 0.1's from the circuit, and ran wires to the pads. I then installed easy-to-work-with through hole caps on a breadboard to replace what I'd removed. I'm still waiting for some oddball 3K resistors to show up (I hate to just run 3 1K's in series) for the sound circuit, for now things are just a bit loud and distorted because I substituted 1Ks.


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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:19 pm 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
capsulej wrote:
Yep, I used pin 59, and tied it to the 5V from a console scart cable. When I turn the console on the screen just goes black. I tried removing the cap/resistors and even soldering directly to the pins on a ps1, just to see if it was the scart cable, but it did the same thing. Shouldn't I at least get some sort of signal?


My thoughts:
1. If the screen goes black you succeeded at blanking the screen for OSD. If your R/G/B are properly wired, even without the FB hooked up, you should see your game coming in through the "holes" of the OSD. Full-screen menu is a great test if your TV has one.
2. Maybe your R/G/B is not terminated properly and thus it has no contrast. My set gave me a poor picture without termination, but maybe yours just defaults to black. Also of course make sure you're grabbing/putting RGB in the right place.
3. ...You did establish a common ground between the SCART and the TV's motherboard, right? (I had some problems because I had wired the ground properly on my end, but the Chinese SCART cable I was using left the composite video ground open on its end, so I had to fix the SCART cable.)

capsulej wrote:
Speaking of which, should i still be able to see the osd? I mean i can see it when the console is off but everything is black. Im assimg thats because i pulled out all of the colors when i lifted the pins?


Yes. You will want to wire up a switch (4PDT or higher) to allow you to go back to OSD RGBY. You will need your OSD working to fiddle with service menu adjustments.


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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:09 pm 


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capsulej wrote:
Well, I gave this a try on my MW24FN1R and I couldn't get it to do much more than give me a blank screen. I lifted the RGB pins on the IC out of the circuit (not fun btw, very small pins) and did the 0.1uf cap/75 ohm resistor setup and +5v to blanking like Voultair suggested. I may try it with 10uf caps but im all out for now, will have to order more.



Do you have a datasheet for that Jungle I/C?

I didn't look at the circuit path, were there capacitors in circuit before the Jungle?

Are you sure that it's not TTL (digital) RGB, and not analog signal?

That's a combo unit, so it could be doing all kinds of wonky things.

Let's look at your termination site. This might not be ideal for what you're trying to achieve..

It looks like this chip is the endpoint between your signals and the neckbeard.

Try terminating here:

Image

These are most certainly analog inputs. See pin 35? That's the NTSC color-burst frequency. This chip is ultimately responsible for color modulation/demodulation. This will probably be the winner for you.

My bet is that you were terminating into low bit digital RGB inputs. Undo everything you did there and put it back. Terminate to the chip that I outlined for you.
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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:25 pm 



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 13
Voultar wrote:
capsulej wrote:
Well, I gave this a try on my MW24FN1R and I couldn't get it to do much more than give me a blank screen. I lifted the RGB pins on the IC out of the circuit (not fun btw, very small pins) and did the 0.1uf cap/75 ohm resistor setup and +5v to blanking like Voultair suggested. I may try it with 10uf caps but im all out for now, will have to order more.



Do you have a datasheet for that Jungle I/C?

I didn't look at the circuit path, were there capacitors in circuit before the Jungle?

Are you sure that it's not TTL (digital) RGB, and not analog signal?

That's a combo unit, so it could be doing all kinds of wonky things.

Let's look at your termination site. This might not be ideal for what you're trying to achieve..

It looks like this chip is the endpoint between your signals and the neckbeard.

Try terminating here:

Image

These are most certainly analog inputs. See pin 35? That's the NTSC color-burst frequency. This chip is ultimately responsible for color modulation/demodulation. This will probably be the winner for you.

My bet is that you were terminating into low bit digital RGB inputs. Undo everything you did there and put it back. Terminate to the chip that I outlined for you.


Well, I undid the work on the old IC and gave the chroma chip a try, and now i cant event get the screen to blank. It did change the OSD to white but i didn't see anything overlaid on it. Either i damaged something or didn't solder the blanking pin correctly, which is entirely possible since its all surface mount stuff.

I looked before for a data sheet for either of those 2 chips but i was unable to find them. Its my suspicion that you may be right and the extra hardware is causing issues.

The chips are on the bottom of the main board and i have to take apart the whole TV to get to them, which makes it a pain to keep troubleshooting it. I think im going to throw in the towel on this one, at least for now. I might revisit it later.

I will probably look for a simpler TV if i try this again. That KV-27FS100 looks good and its about the size im looking for.

Thank you for your help Voultar.


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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:02 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
All parts are here, and ready to do the mod .. just figuring out the attack plan now. I'm sure many of you would be in the same boat. The big problem I see is that all the standard stock connectors are part of the chassis. The case actually has nothing on it. So when I install the switch and SCART connector on the case, I'll need to come up with a solution to "quick disconnect" the case from the chassis (for future service).

That being said, we're talking about a pretty HEFTY quick discount!! Here are all the wires as far as I see it:

original red from OSD (to switch)
original green from OSD (to switch)
original blue from OSD (to switch)
original blanking pin from OSD (to switch)
red output from switch
green output from switch
blue output from switch
blanking output from switch (5V or tie to original blanking)
SYNC (into composite video on chassis)
AUDIO LEFT (into white port on chassis)
AUDIO RIGHT (into red port on chassis)
GROUND

That's a total of 12 wires! Any suggestions on how to reduce this, or am I stuck? If I can reduce it to 9 pins, I was going to use DB9 male/female ports with proper plastic shielding, but at this point I'm not crazy about DB25!


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 Post subject: Re: 27" Trinitron to RGB mod success (KV-27S42)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:07 pm 


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leonk wrote:
All parts are here, and ready to do the mod .. just figuring out the attack plan now. I'm sure many of you would be in the same boat. The big problem I see is that all the standard stock connectors are part of the chassis. The case actually has nothing on it. So when I install the switch and SCART connector on the case, I'll need to come up with a solution to "quick disconnect" the case from the chassis (for future service).

That being said, we're talking about a pretty HEFTY quick discount!! Here are all the wires as far as I see it:

original red from OSD (to switch)
original green from OSD (to switch)
original blue from OSD (to switch)
original blanking pin from OSD (to switch)
red output from switch
green output from switch
blue output from switch
blanking output from switch (5V or tie to original blanking)
SYNC (into composite video on chassis)
AUDIO LEFT (into white port on chassis)
AUDIO RIGHT (into red port on chassis)
GROUND

That's a total of 12 wires! Any suggestions on how to reduce this, or am I stuck? If I can reduce it to 9 pins, I was going to use DB9 male/female ports with proper plastic shielding, but at this point I'm not crazy about DB25!


Quick Connects.

Image

And More Quick Connects.

Image
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:22 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 1201
I have a 14" Samsung Techwin 700 line S-video monitor that was given to me.

i could use another small rgb monitor though.

It is Composite and s-video only.

Its probably just some sort of s-video converter IC in there right?

i couldnt find any service info on it and am trying to figure out if its worth messing with.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:42 pm 


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mvsfan wrote:
I have a 14" Samsung Techwin 700 line S-video monitor that was given to me.

i could use another small rgb monitor though.

It is Composite and s-video only.

Its probably just some sort of s-video converter IC in there right?

i couldnt find any service info on it and am trying to figure out if its worth messing with.


If you can't find any sort of datasheets or can't identify any ICs on the board as being what you're looking for, then I doubt anybody else could.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:43 am 



Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 73
mvsfan wrote:
I have a 14" Samsung Techwin 700 line S-video monitor that was given to me.

i could use another small rgb monitor though.

It is Composite and s-video only.

Its probably just some sort of s-video converter IC in there right?

i couldnt find any service info on it and am trying to figure out if its worth messing with.


Open it up and locate the jungle IC. Search for the part number printed on it, if it's something like ZN76814 try searching just 76814 datasheet.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:08 am 



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 322
Voultar wrote:
It looks like this chip is the endpoint between your signals and the neckbeard.

Best typo or autocorrect ever. :D

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:27 am 


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Ever since it got typo'd to "neckbeard" on IRC, it stuck as being obviously the best term.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:05 pm 


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It was never a typo. ;)
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:08 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 306
So I have an old GE/RCA 19" that accepts only Composite, but the case has a marking on the back for S-Video (I presume for a higher end model).
I've had this since 1992 and am thinking of taking it and several other electronic things to a recycle facility soon. Of course finding service information for this TV is impossible there is no information that exists.

Also have another old 27" Symphonic (From about 2000) that also only accepts Composite.

I have the remote for neither, the Symphonic needs it to switch to the AV inputs, and on both the solder joints on all the RCA jacks have become broken making proper connection a pain in the ass.

They've both been sitting around collecting dust for years. I used the GE to play some Genesis games a few years ago and that just reminded me of how bad the composite was on that system hah. I also used it to play GCN games ...about 5 years ago.


If they have compatible ICs do you think this'd probably be a worthwhile thing to give them a new life (And maybe re-homed instead?) instead of being recycled?

I haven't soldered in ages and I don't have the equipment anymore so i'd have to buy all that wazoo. (Probably should since there's another project I need to work on. Replacing the 3.5mm audio socket on a headphone DSP I have that I once ripped out while repairing it for fun because I thought i'd never need the headphone socket... heh)


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:48 pm 


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Posts: 13990
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North Americans finally getting RGB. Where was this info 10 years ago? I seriously applaud you guys. I'm far too scared to get electrocuted (I barely opened my PVM) to do this, and don't have the space, but it does make me want one. :D
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:22 pm 


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GaijinPunch wrote:
North Americans finally getting RGB.


Yeah, it's weird that only now are we figuring this out, 10 years after they stopped making CRT's.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:37 pm 


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Was it possible to find service manuals that readily 10 years ago? They cost a lot and you probably had to be certified in some way if you wanted to buy one. That would be a good explanation.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:55 pm 


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The idea isn't extremely new, and I'm certainly not the first to do it. There is not a lot written about it online, though, so that's why I wanted to create a thread.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:01 am 


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mikejmoffitt wrote:
The idea isn't extremely new, and I'm certainly not the first to do it. There is not a lot written about it online, though, so that's why I wanted to create a thread.


I remember talk about it here a while back... pretty sure I had moved back to Japan by then and had a Trinitron with AV-Multi so didn't follow it that much. You would think Sony would have tried something when the Playstation came out. I mean... shit... they made the fucking TVs. :)
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:56 am 



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 7
Ive been trying to get RGB on a toshiba tv and I have the RGB inputs lifted from the pcb and the blank pin tied to 5v but its not working. I get a green picture thats scrolling but no graphics. Maybe my ic is digital RGB levels or YUV colorspace not sure?

TV service mauel schimatic
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/958566 ... =18#manual

IC with RGB in that we are tapping.
http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/2 ... 283FP.html

Anyone know how to tell if the inputs are analog like we need and if they're using RGB or YUV


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:48 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
Finally got around to complete this project. The surgery was done on a 2003 Sony 27FS100 .. what a great CRT.

progress pictures:

Image

Image

The quick connects I decided to use is DB15. The 75 ohm and 0.1uF caps were all installed on the female SCART port. The 4PDT switch was installed with composite video down, RGB up. Composite video and audio left / audio right were fed into Video 3 / composite input.

Image

Image

End results / what I discovered:

Because I use mostly composite video for sync, if I don't feed 5V via SCART connector, the TV just thinks regular composite video is being fed in. This is a great A/B test as one can quickly see the difference in quality just by flicking the switch. This TV allows you to set color temperature, brightness, etc. All these pictures settings effect RGB! So set desirable settings in composite mode, and then switch to RGB to play.

Sega Genesis model 1 csync / sync booster SCART cable:

Image

Image

This system just shines in RGB on this TV. The best picture I've seen. Equivalent in every way to my 20" PVM.

Nintendo SNES mini with RGB amp:

Image

Exact same color and brightness as composite video. Much cleaner picture.

NESRGB in my Top Loader (using exact same sync on composite video cable as the SNES):


This is where I run into trouble. This is what it looks in regular composite video from NESRGB:

Image

Now same picture in RGB:

Image

Yes, it actually does look "darker".

SMB3 world 1 level 1 shows the issue best:

Image

Notice how much darker everything is. Also, the sky doesn't have uniform color. That white bloom is actually there! The other thing I noticed is "noise" in the picture. Diagonal lines of "noise" every few pixels apart, across the entire picture. Especially visible in the solid colors. Very hard to photograph, but if you look at the big "Mario Bros" title screen, you can clearly see it in the blue text.

This system looks and acts perfectly on my PVM .. I play it every day and never an issue.

2/13/2015: The issue is the cable. The diagonal lines are there in the SNES image above as well. When one uses CSYNC cables instead of sync on composite video, all the problems go away.


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
UPDATE:

I switched my composite video from V to CS# on NESRGB and all the problems went away!

Image

Image

I can confirm that it is RGB, and looks AMAZING. If I switch to comp video input, the video goes away but audio remains.

2/13/2015: ignore the picture shift to the right. I was playing around in the service menu and forgot to correct it.


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:55 pm 



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 7
Nice work leonk. Got mine going yesterday as well and am happy with the results. Had to terminate with 100ohm instead of 75 to get the brightness up. Other than that nothing out of the usual.

http://imgur.com/a/FzNr7

Edit: You can check out the work flow log in the link below if you are interested.

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... d_toshiba/


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:50 pm 


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darknezz19 wrote:
Nice work leonk. Got mine going yesterday as well and am happy with the results. Had to terminate with 100ohm instead of 75 to get the brightness up. Other than that nothing out of the usual.


Did you not put couple caps on your terminations? If you don't restore the black level, you're not going to have a purdy picture.

100 ohm resistors won't match the impedance of your 75ohm load vidya signals.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:23 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
Hey Voultar, how do you connect your NESRGB to your RGB modded NES? CSYNC? Any issues? cropping?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:22 am 


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Location: USA
leonk wrote:
Hey Voultar, how do you connect your NESRGB to your RGB modded NES? CSYNC? Any issues? cropping?



Composite Sync all the way.

I can see Composite Video or Luma creating some line delay that will cause a slight horizontal shift.

Keep in mind. Composite Video, and S-Video go through several post processing filters, such as comb for example.

RGB doesn't, and that in itself will produce a line delay, depending on how the jungle handles it. You can have a slight horizontal shift (typically in the east direction).
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:12 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
UPDATE:

- Next, tried my TG16 with Tim's AV-Driver in it. Uses composite sync:

Image

Image

Just perfect. Notice no jail bars, perfect saturation. This thing is a dream.

But I did notice something, and confirmed it with all other sources. The menu system is still visible!!! I use 5V source from the console. When I press MENU, nothing is visible except for a faint shadow of the menu - I can almost make it out. On black screen, the shadow reads "Video 3!!"

Only way I think this can happen is if the original blanking pin is cross talking somehow! But the only way they come close to one another is in the switch. Bad switch!?


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:11 am 


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Location: San Jose, CA
The MCU's 5V blanking output is influencing the line a tiny bit still. There are actually two OSD Y outputs on the MCU. One is for solid areas, and one is for "outlines". That may be related, and you can try taking both out of circuit. It's kind of handy to have the menu noise there if you need to use it.

If you use S-video input for composite sync you might have your horizontal shift solved. Otherwise, the service menu will help you.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:22 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 1026
Location: Toronto, Canada
...


Last edited by leonk on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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