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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:52 pm 


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Decoryah wrote:
Would multiformat PVM/BVM work as a retro PC (486/Pentium) monitor for DOS games?

not exactly, many/most DOS games use 70Hz vertical refresh, which even the multiformat sets do not support

there are some PC video modes they can display (60Hz) but you will be limited to a narrow cross section of DOS games that use them


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:46 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Decoryah wrote:
Would multiformat PVM/BVM work as a retro PC (486/Pentium) monitor for DOS games?

not exactly, many/most DOS games use 70Hz vertical refresh, which even the multiformat sets do not support

there are some PC video modes they can display (60Hz) but you will be limited to a narrow cross section of DOS games that use them


Too bad :( So good quality PC CRT will be better option then?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:03 pm 


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Is there a way to get TV output from a switch when used with a flipgrip or held in tate mode?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 am 


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CRT question for the knowing:

What's the best way to determine the "quality" of a PVM? I've got a couple identical models--would measuring peak brightness at full contrast provide a clue as to the age of the tube? Is this helpful? I've got one that only outputs 130nit, while another goes to 170nit.

Can I assume the 170nit one has seen fewer operational hours?

Bonus question: are CRTs for gaming calibrated to 100nit like TV-viewing?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:53 am 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Is there a way to get TV output from a switch when used with a flipgrip or held in tate mode?


I think DigitalFoundry is using a custom solution right now, but it took them awhile before they started it- so certainly possible but I'm doubting it's simple. Likely more in line with those closed-source 3DS video capture mods.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:04 am 



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EDIT: Scratch that, I went ahead and installed an LM1881 instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:06 am 



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New question:

Is 220uf really a fully sufficient value for RGB video coupling capacitors? I notice that the CXA1145 datasheet says to use 470uf.

I'm presently building a bunch of my own cables, and I'm ready to invest and get some good quality OS-CON polymer caps. The difference between getting a few dozen 220uf caps and a few dozen 470 caps is negligible enough. Perhaps the better question is: Is there any reason not to just use 470 all around?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:26 am 


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SamIAm wrote:
Perhaps the better question is: Is there any reason not to just use 470 all around?

Short version: Bigger is better, but bigger usually needs more space.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:27 am 



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Unseen wrote:
SamIAm wrote:
Perhaps the better question is: Is there any reason not to just use 470 all around?

Short version: Bigger is better, but bigger usually needs more space.


I'm using breakout boxes with my cabling, so size is essentially not an issue.

What I understand so far is this:

The resistors and the caps in the video lines are going to effectively create high-pass filters, and the corner frequency for a HPF for video should be 10Hz. When calculating the capacitor value for this, both 75 ohm resistors at the source and the termination point should be considered as the load value i.e. 150 ohms. This being the case, 106uf is the amount of capacitance the math says we need, and even with a 75 ohm load, the value is 212uf. Thus, a 220uf cap should be sufficient (source).

However, there will be coupling caps on the TV end as well (apparently by law). Since putting capacitors in series results in the capacitance being less than the lowest value cap, this could theoretically result in capacitance going below what's required for a 10Hz filter. For example, if the TV has only a 100uf cap internally, then a 220uf cap on the console end would result in about 68uf (source), which would give us a 15Hz HPF. A 470uf cap on the console end would work out to 82uf, which is about 13Hz. 1000uf would be 91uf and 11.6Hz.

Is this right?

I see that like the CXA1145, the datasheet for the MB3516A in the Neo Geo CDZ also specifies 470uf caps. At this point, I'm very inclined to get 470uf caps or greater, though I do wonder if the difference would actually be perceptible.

Not to mention, this is all going through an Extron Crosspoint anyway. I'm not even sure what the consequences there are going to be.


Last edited by SamIAm on Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:21 pm 


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Can 240p YPbPr be sent over your garden variety red, white, and yellow RCA cables? If I'm reading things right, component cables have a higher impedance which allows them to carry signals up to 1080i. They are both RCA style connectors. I guess, I know that the yellow composite cable can carry a 240p signal (not sure if RGB/YPbPr matters even) but I'm more worried about the red and white cables. If they are the same thickness as the yellow wire, it should be able to handle 240p?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:48 pm 



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geiger9 wrote:
Can 240p YPbPr be sent over your garden variety red, white, and yellow RCA cables? If I'm reading things right, component cables have a higher impedance which allows them to carry signals up to 1080i. They are both RCA style connectors. I guess, I know that the yellow composite cable can carry a 240p signal (not sure if RGB/YPbPr matters even) but I'm more worried about the red and white cables. If they are the same thickness as the yellow wire, it should be able to handle 240p?


Nice quality YPbPr/Component cables are like $7.50 shipped off Amazon...why not just pickup some? These are what I used on my first ~10 setups or so and they always worked great - no image degradation I could see on my Sony PVM or BVM's (used with a ton of cheap RCA to BNC adapters of course) - was usually running RGBS over them (using one of the audio wires for sync...so your plan might work...but why?).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008U ... =UTF8&th=1


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:49 pm 


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geiger9 wrote:
Can 240p YPbPr be sent over your garden variety red, white, and yellow RCA cables? If I'm reading things right, component cables have a higher impedance which allows them to carry signals up to 1080i. They are both RCA style connectors. I guess, I know that the yellow composite cable can carry a 240p signal (not sure if RGB/YPbPr matters even) but I'm more worried about the red and white cables. If they are the same thickness as the yellow wire, it should be able to handle 240p?

short answer: yes it will work

longer answer: all video lines should ideally be 75ohm impedance, lower quality cabling usually is not, regardless of the colors used or if it was intended for composite vs component

if you have good quality "red white yellow" cables then they will probably be just as good


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:15 am 



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SamIAm wrote:
What I understand so far is this:


I've been playing around with this circuit simulator. If you change the value of the capacitor, you can see how the voltage in the "scope" on the right changes. It's interesting how even at 30Hz, a 0.7Vp-p signal winds up dropping 40mV in amplitude if the coupling capacitor is 100uf. At 60Hz, a 220uf capacitor results in only a 1.25mV loss

Also, I looked into polymer caps some more, and I was surprised at how high their leakage currents can be. Some of the larger capacitance ones are around 1000uA, or 1mA. A large Nippon-Chemicon KMG series, which is a cheap general use electrolytic cap, is only 49uA after five minutes of on-time. The datasheet for OS-Cons even says not to use them in coupling circuits.

Right now, I'm thinking of getting some 6.3V 1000uf electrolytics. Anybody think that's a bad idea?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:54 am 


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Maybe someone here can direct me to the right product, as my googling skills aren't coming up with anything.

Is there a way to get resolutions larger than 1920x1080/1920x1200 from Displayport/HDMI to VGA adapters?
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm 


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LEGENOARYNINLIA wrote:
Maybe someone here can direct me to the right product, as my googling skills aren't coming up with anything.

Is there a way to get resolutions larger than 1920x1080/1920x1200 from Displayport/HDMI to VGA adapters?

I suppose it's possible, but almost all the analog video hardware you see runs out of bandwidth after 1200 lines


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:41 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
LEGENOARYNINLIA wrote:
Maybe someone here can direct me to the right product, as my googling skills aren't coming up with anything.

Is there a way to get resolutions larger than 1920x1080/1920x1200 from Displayport/HDMI to VGA adapters?

I suppose it's possible, but almost all the analog video hardware you see runs out of bandwidth after 1200 lines


I'm pretty sure that VGA does 2048x1536 and that my old 17" CRT actually did that 20 years ago (@ crappy 60Hz, though). If any digital->VGA adapter support resolutions > 1600x1200/1920x1080 it is questionable, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:01 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
LEGENOARYNINLIA wrote:
Maybe someone here can direct me to the right product, as my googling skills aren't coming up with anything.

Is there a way to get resolutions larger than 1920x1080/1920x1200 from Displayport/HDMI to VGA adapters?

I suppose it's possible, but almost all the analog video hardware you see runs out of bandwidth after 1200 lines


I'm pretty sure that VGA does 2048x1536 and that my old 17" CRT actually did that 20 years ago (@ crappy 60Hz, though). If any digital->VGA adapter support resolutions > 1600x1200/1920x1080 it is questionable, though.

yeah CRTs can handle it (although the vast majority can't actually resolve that much detail due to the mask/grill), I was referring to the DACs and switchers and even cabling that are on the market today


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:35 am 


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anyone aware of a lag-free HDMI -> YPbPr converter on the market? IQ is not really important, as it will only be for testing, just 0 latency


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:15 pm 


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Does anyone make/sell good quality component cables for the original Xbox? I have bought a couple on eBay but they are ridiculously noisy.

I am tempted to just graft the end onto a better shielded cable, but I would rather not have to do that! Official or monster cables seem to be very difficult to get hold of here.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:34 pm 


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Kez wrote:
Does anyone make/sell good quality component cables for the original Xbox? I have bought a couple on eBay but they are ridiculously noisy.

I am tempted to just graft the end onto a better shielded cable, but I would rather not have to do that! Official or monster cables seem to be very difficult to get hold of here.

HDRV has hinted they might do it, but no one does at this time I'm aware of


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:47 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
HDRV has hinted they might do it, but no one does at this time I'm aware of


Did anybody ever ask RA / RGC why neither of them sells a simply PS2/OGBX component cable? IIRC they both sell SCART and BNC cables for the PS2 and RGC even sells an OGBX SCART cable, but neither sells the most likely most popular simple component cable. Kinda weird, especially since the difficult part, the console side connector, is already done. Maybe because of the optical breakout for OGXB?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:53 pm 



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You can take a 360 component cable and replace the console-side connector with an OG Xbox connector (from, say, a cheap composite cable). It's even possible to keep the optical out, but without 3D printing a shell, it looks a little hacky. If you don't care about optical out, it looks just fine. That is what I am doing. The official 360 cable has individual shielding on the lines, so it's a good cable to use. It's not even that difficult of a modification to do. Though it would still be nice if someone else made them.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:37 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
HDRV has hinted they might do it, but no one does at this time I'm aware of


Did anybody ever ask RA / RGC why neither of them sells a simply PS2/OGBX component cable? IIRC they both sell SCART and BNC cables for the PS2 and RGC even sells an OGBX SCART cable, but neither sells the most likely most popular simple component cable. Kinda weird, especially since the difficult part, the console side connector, is already done. Maybe because of the optical breakout for OGXB?

I'm not sure about RGC, but, as far as Retro-Access goes, I imagine they simply haven't had enough demand for component cables to bother adding them to their website; component cables for YPbPr-capable consoles, namely the PS2, PS3, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360, were widely available, so there's not much reason to pay a boutique manufacturer for a custom one when you can still get one for a few dollars on Amazon or eBay (even if it's garbage quality). Of course, if you still want one, you could send Retro-Access an email; I'm sure they'd be willing to make you a custom, high-quality PS2/PS3 or Wii component cable using the same cabling they use for SCART/BNC cables with the RCA connectors they already use for LR audio.

Now, if Retro-Access could source the AV connectors, they could very well make Xbox component cables. Additionally, if they use their screw-top connector body design (Like the ones pictured here and here), they could offer one with a plain, flat-top lid to serve as a typical third-party component cable, and then offer another with a bubbled or cutout lid for a version with a TOSLINK board/jack.

I don't think the existence of official TOSLINK breakouts for the Xbox really negate the need for a high-quality, aftermarket component cable; rather, I think their current rarity and high price, including the Monster Cable cable and this official one that I just learned about, should warrant availability of high-quality and TOSLINK-enabled aftermarket versions. I've also read that the HD AV Pack can negatively impact video quality (I'll edit if/when I find that source), so there's another reason why people might want a newly-manufactured, high-quality cable from a trusted source.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:01 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
HDRV has hinted they might do it, but no one does at this time I'm aware of


Did anybody ever ask RA / RGC why neither of them sells a simply PS2/OGBX component cable? IIRC they both sell SCART and BNC cables for the PS2 and RGC even sells an OGBX SCART cable, but neither sells the most likely most popular simple component cable. Kinda weird, especially since the difficult part, the console side connector, is already done. Maybe because of the optical breakout for OGXB?

I'm not sure about RGC, but, as far as Retro-Access goes, I imagine they simply haven't had enough demand for component cables to bother adding them to their website; component cables for YPbPr-capable consoles, namely the PS2, PS3, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360, were widely available, so there's not much reason to pay a boutique manufacturer for a custom one when you can still get one for a few dollars on Amazon or eBay (even if it's garbage quality). Of course, if you still want one, you could send Retro-Access an email; I'm sure they'd be willing to make you a custom, high-quality PS2/PS3 or Wii component cable using the same cabling they use for SCART/BNC cables with the RCA connectors they already use for LR audio.

Now, if Retro-Access could source the AV connectors, they could very well make Xbox component cables. Additionally, if they use their screw-top connector body design (Like the ones pictured here and here), they could offer one with a plain, flat-top lid to serve as a typical third-party component cable, and then offer another with a bubbled or cutout lid for a version with a TOSLINK board/jack.

I don't think the existence of official TOSLINK breakouts for the Xbox really negate the need for a high-quality, aftermarket component cable; rather, I think their current rarity and high price, including the Monster Cable cable and this official one that I just learned about, should warrant availability of high-quality and TOSLINK-enabled aftermarket versions. I've also read that the HD AV Pack can negatively impact video quality (I'll edit if/when I find that source), so there's another reason why people might want a newly-manufactured, high-quality cable from a trusted source.


I have a OEM HD AV Pack and it has always given me flawless quality

I also have a knock off HD AV Pack (that has just the word "BOX" printed in the circle) that looks like butthole, maybe people are conflating the two? They look very alike other than the logo


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:46 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
I'm not sure about RGC, but, as far as Retro-Access goes, I imagine they simply haven't had enough demand for component cables to bother adding them to their website; component cables for YPbPr-capable consoles, namely the PS2, PS3, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360, were widely available, so there's not much reason to pay a boutique manufacturer for a custom one when you can still get one for a few dollars on Amazon or eBay (even if it's garbage quality).


OEM cables for many of those systems can still be hard to find, especially for a decent price. Like some of those options you talked about there is definitely money to be made if one of the retro gaming cable manufacturers jumped into the market.

Take PS2 for example - I had 3x knock-off cables (I researched them on forums even), and the video quality was pretty bad. I finally gave up and looked for an OEM cable in mid 2018 and it took me MONTHS of daily alerts to find something for around $25 which is what I wanted to pay (considering they used to be like $5 at Gamestop back in the day lol).

Just the other week I needed another PS2 set for a dual-monitor Time Crisis setup, and there wasn't a SINGLE listing on eBay for under $50. Craziness. I then found that HD Retrovision had their own version of them, brand new for $30 and they got my sale.

OEM OG Xbox HD AV Packs were around $60 when I was looking for another one last year (I do see one on eBay for $42 today though).

Even official Wii component cables cost me $22 + shipping a couple months ago (that was after trying two different knock-off ones which were initially fine, then went to crap after a short period of time).




maxtherabbit wrote:
I have a OEM HD AV Pack and it has always given me flawless quality


I found the same too. I have two of them, and they seem to match the quality of my OG Xbox Frozen VGA cable (setup to output RGBS for my BVM/PVM's).


Last edited by Dochartaigh on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:47 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
HDRV has hinted they might do it, but no one does at this time I'm aware of


Did anybody ever ask RA / RGC why neither of them sells a simply PS2/OGBX component cable? IIRC they both sell SCART and BNC cables for the PS2 and RGC even sells an OGBX SCART cable, but neither sells the most likely most popular simple component cable. Kinda weird, especially since the difficult part, the console side connector, is already done. Maybe because of the optical breakout for OGXB?

I'm not sure about RGC, but, as far as Retro-Access goes, I imagine they simply haven't had enough demand for component cables to bother adding them to their website; component cables for YPbPr-capable consoles, namely the PS2, PS3, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360, were widely available, so there's not much reason to pay a boutique manufacturer for a custom one when you can still get one for a few dollars on Amazon or eBay (even if it's garbage quality). Of course, if you still want one, you could send Retro-Access an email; I'm sure they'd be willing to make you a custom, high-quality PS2/PS3 or Wii component cable using the same cabling they use for SCART/BNC cables with the RCA connectors they already use for LR audio.

Now, if Retro-Access could source the AV connectors, they could very well make Xbox component cables. Additionally, if they use their screw-top connector body design (Like the ones pictured here and here), they could offer one with a plain, flat-top lid to serve as a typical third-party component cable, and then offer another with a bubbled or cutout lid for a version with a TOSLINK board/jack.

I don't think the existence of official TOSLINK breakouts for the Xbox really negate the need for a high-quality, aftermarket component cable; rather, I think their current rarity and high price, including the Monster Cable cable and this official one that I just learned about, should warrant availability of high-quality and TOSLINK-enabled aftermarket versions. I've also read that the HD AV Pack can negatively impact video quality (I'll edit if/when I find that source), so there's another reason why people might want a newly-manufactured, high-quality cable from a trusted source.


In Europe the situation regarding component cables is a bit more dire since the official PS2 / OGBX component cables were never released here and even authorized 3rd parties were not allowed to sell them in this region. OGXB had EDTV/HDTV removed at the video BIOS level and PS2 PAL games like GT4 also had high res support removed. So prices are a bit worse. I had to pay boutique prices to get a proper component cable for my PS2, might as well have bought one from RGC. The 5EUR component cables look like crap with lots of weird ghosting/ringing errors.

btw, many people don't know this, but for like 2-3 bucks there are small interposers for the AV connector of the OGXB that add optical out. Using one of these, very handy.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:10 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
I have a OEM HD AV Pack and it has always given me flawless quality

I also have a knock off HD AV Pack (that has just the word "BOX" printed in the circle) that looks like butthole, maybe people are conflating the two? They look very alike other than the logo

I think this is the source I previously found. I haven't opened mine to verify it, but, if the official breakout boxes are indeed unshielded, like I expect the knockoffs to be, then that could be a potential problem. That said, I, too, have not seen any quality issues with my official HD AV Pack (with the original cables, as well).

ASDR wrote:
btw, many people don't know this, but for like 2-3 bucks there are small interposers for the AV connector of the OGXB that add optical out. Using one of these, very handy.

I was aware of these, but I wasn't able to find them when I posted. Plus, last I saw (whenever that was), whatever one seller was selling them didn't ship outside the UK.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:17 am 


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Thanks for the info all - converting a 360 component cable seems relatively painless/cheap. I think I will have a crack at that and see how I get on!


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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:39 pm 


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In case you guys missed it, citrus3000psi's lag tester is open for preorder:

https://shop.dansprojects.com/time-sleu ... ester.html
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 Post subject: Re: Questions that do not deserve a thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:14 am 



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Awesome! Leo Bodnar has some actual competition now and maybe they'll have the incentive to improve their product line now.

OK question:

I've been wondering for the longest time why s-video cables have not been used to carry RGB signals instead when there's enough pins to support independent color lines, including one for H/V sync. This has been my "Elephant in the room" issue for awhile now.
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