XRGB-mini Framemeister

[GohanX]

Hey guys, I've got a question. I've had the Mini for years now, decided to mess around with seeing how it upscales a laserdisc. I currently run my LD player composite into a Panasonic DVD recorder, which puts out an excellent 480i or 480p component image. It has HDMI too, but I'm not crazy about the HDMI output. The recorder doesn't scale to 720p worth a crap.

Anyway, I tried hooking it into the mini through component and there's all kinds of noise in the image. It's very distracting. Is that normal for the Mini's component input, or could it be that I have a cabling issue? I'm trying to see if I can get a "good enough" image out of the Mini before spending cash on a DVDO or something specifically for the LD player.

[Shuco13]

Does your capture card have the option to switch the color matrix from BT.709 to BT.601 when capturing RGB?
That should fix the problem instead of having to switch from RGB to YCbCR.

The driver I'm using for the Micomsoft SC-500N1 doesn't have that option. Maybe a newer driver has it?

I can switch between 709 and 601 on my TV, but it doesn't seem do change anything when the Framemeister outputs in RGB mode. Probably because my TV doesn't have to do a conversion for RGB. So even if I could fix RGB on my capture it would look off on my TV. Switching to YCbCr solves it for both devices.

After I had read your last post I did a few tests with another screen an came to the following conclusion:
If you will see changes in black level or not when updating to the most recent firmware depends on your display. My PC-monitor which doesn't support YCBCR expects RGB and showed no black crush on AUTO/YCBCR. I had visible black crush on my TV on the other hand, using the same settings on the mini. If you were on AUTO before, adjustments are needed if the display differentiates between the two color spaces. If you don't want to keep your previous settings I'd recommend sticking with AUTO/YCBCR since there is less color conversion going on.

@GohanX
Noise can be reduced by setting A/D and COLOR settings correctly. It's also source dependent and will never disappear completely.

[copy]

Hey guys, I've got a question. I've had the Mini for years now, decided to mess around with seeing how it upscales a laserdisc. I currently run my LD player composite into a Panasonic DVD recorder, which puts out an excellent 480i or 480p component image. It has HDMI too, but I'm not crazy about the HDMI output. The recorder doesn't scale to 720p worth a crap.

Anyway, I tried hooking it into the mini through component and there's all kinds of noise in the image. It's very distracting. Is that normal for the Mini's component input, or could it be that I have a cabling issue? I'm trying to see if I can get a "good enough" image out of the Mini before spending cash on a DVDO or something specifically for the LD player.

May I suggest trying your LD player's composite output directly into the Mini? I believe the Mini has a decent comb filter.

[austin532]

Alright, here is my new (and hopefully improved) list of 240p scanline settings for 1080p. They apply to firmware 2.03 and possibly later as that is when the scanlines seemed to have slightly changed. You will notice that there really isn't any patterns that they go by and can be very inconsistent. Basically the farther apart Line and Smooth are, the thinner they get and the closer they get the thicker they are. I have created a Thick, Even, and CRT like before but this time I also created a Thin and 480i as well. Please keep in mind that what appears to me as Thin may not necessarily appear Thin for you so a little trial and error may be needed.


THICK



0 INT LINE
60 INT SMOOTH

10 INT LINE
60 INT SMOOTH

20 INT LINE
65 INT SMOOTH

30 INT LINE
65 INT SMOOTH

40 INT LINE
70 INT SMOOTH

50 INT LINE
75 INT SMOOTH

60 INT LINE
80 INT SMOOTH

70 INT LINE
85 INT SMOOTH


EVEN



0 INT LINE
70 INT SMOOTH

10 INT LINE
70 INT SMOOTH

20 INT LINE
70 INT SMOOTH

30 INT LINE
75 INT SMOOTH

40 INT LINE
80 INT SMOOTH

50 INT LINE
85 INT SMOOTH

60 INT LINE
87 INT SMOOTH

70 INT LINE
92 INT SMOOTH


CRT



0 INT LINE
76 INT SMOOTH

10 INT LINE
76 INT SMOOTH

20 INT LINE
76 INT SMOOTH

30 INT LINE
81 INT SMOOTH

40 INT LINE
81 INT SMOOTH

50 INT LINE
86 INT SMOOTH

60 INT LINE
91 INT SMOOTH

70 INT LINE
96 INT SMOOTH


THIN



0 INT LINE
80 INT SMOOTH

10 INT LINE
80 INT SMOOTH

20 INT LINE
80 INT SMOOTH

30 INT LINE
80 INT SMOOTH

40 INT LINE
85 INT SMOOTH

50 INT LINE
90 INT SMOOTH

60 INT LINE
95 INT SMOOTH

70 INT LINE
95 INT SMOOTH


480i



0 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

10 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

20 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

30 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

40 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

50 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

60 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH

70 INT LINE
115 INT SMOOTH



I guess if I had to explain why I made these it would be that I was highly inspired by FBX. His profiles have done so much for the community. Another reason is I am sort of a purist when it comes to retro gaming. I like the image to be as close to CRT as possible and scanlines definitely help. Let's face it, the Framemeister's glory days are sadly behind it and I thought this would help give the unit some more life before people throw in the towel.

[bytestorm]

Ouch.. I just bought some ps1 games and was about to order a xrgb-mini when I read about it loosing signal when some games switches resolution.. (i just bought chrono cross like 45min ago..) and when Google pointed me to this thread I kinda loosed hope

I was hoping to use the mini with:
Snes
Neo geo aes
Ps1

Does it still have the slow switching problem when some ps1 games switches resolution in the menus?

Glory days over? It is not working properly anymore or what has happened? Saw some ppl praise it on YouTube so I thought it would be a good choice for me since I can't find any crt in Japan now with J21/jRGB input (

Is there any better choice for the systems I mentioned above? If I can't source a CRT that is...?

Thanks

[blizzz]

The Framemeister still loses sync for several seconds when any game switches resolution, not limited to just PS1. I wouldn't say that its glory days are over, for me they just began thanks to the latest firmware update.

An alternative for games that do switch resolution is the OSSC, however it's not yet available for immediate purchase and it only outputs in 480p. It can do 720p, but the TV compatibility is limited.

[bytestorm]

Hmm... If it was a big cheaper then I could buy it anyway but for this price I am almost tempted to just buy a good pc screen with a nice panel and just emulate them .. but then again I like having the games, complete in their nice boxes with manuals to read and such. . ( never read em but always think I will)...

[axlblazeadam]

As long as there are no real good and versatile alternatives, the Framemeister glory days are far from over.

[Shuco13]

@austin532
Thanks a lot, those settings look great. They'd also be acceptable for 5x and 6x profiles if there wasn't an additional (odd?) line introduced between every even line. Still having my fingers crossed for Micomsoft to fix this issue some time.

[Braca862]

How does the quality of games using the framemeister look like on TV's with a screen size of 32" and below? Cause I read those are the sizes recommended for bedrooms.

[fafangus]

How does the quality of games using the framemeister look like on TV's with a screen size of 32" and below? Cause I read those are the sizes recommended for bedrooms.

https://youtu.be/XvjFqPIuvw8
https://youtu.be/DyNxrXfuzMs
https://youtu.be/he-7mE3Od3g

Some videos I took from my old samsung 32" (edge led)
The super famicom is a pal one (nothing high graded - no 1chip or rgb board inside) my old console...

[FBX]

@austin532
Thanks a lot, those settings look great. They'd also be acceptable for 5x and 6x profiles if there wasn't an additional (odd?) line introduced between every even line. Still having my fingers crossed for Micomsoft to fix this issue some time.

It's an error with Int-Smooth. Turn it all the way up to 127 to get rid of the unwanted extra lines.

[Shuco13]

Yes int-smooth is definitely flawed. Turning it up isn't a real solution to me since setting it to 127 makes scanlines to thin. Basically that third line is just a misalignment of what should be two faint lines next to each even line. They should finally stop ignoring that issue.

[austin532]

What extra line are you talking about? I feel like I of all people should know this. There is only Int Line and Int Smooth when the image is integer scaled. If not then Dec Line 1, Dec Line 2, and Dec Smooth appear. Is that what you mean?

[FBX]

What extra line are you talking about? I feel like I of all people should know this. There is only Int Line and Int Smooth when the image is integer scaled. If not then Dec Line 1, Dec Line 2, and Dec Smooth appear. Is that what you mean?

It's in regards to anything above 4x (Smart_2X) integer scaled. The Int_Smooth function doesn't line up properly even though the image is scaled properly to 5 x or 6x or what have you. So you end up having to turn Int_Smooth off by setting it at 127, but of course the remaining scanlines are much too thin.

[Everblue]

Is it just my impression that when using FM at 1080p, the picture is slightly widescreen rather than proper 4:3? It seems when I switch to 720p the picture is real 4:3, but not when 1080p (without changing any settings and using FBX's settings).

Thanks!

[BuckoA51]

You could check that in the 240p test suite.

[FBX]

Is it just my impression that when using FM at 1080p, the picture is slightly widescreen rather than proper 4:3? It seems when I switch to 720p the picture is real 4:3, but not when 1080p (without changing any settings and using FBX's settings).

Thanks!

Depends entirely on the profile (some I set to 4:3 and some I set to square pixel). If you want to adjust width, go into the ZOOM settings and adjust the value for ZOOM_WIDTH.

[Everblue]

Is it just my impression that when using FM at 1080p, the picture is slightly widescreen rather than proper 4:3? It seems when I switch to 720p the picture is real 4:3, but not when 1080p (without changing any settings and using FBX's settings).

Thanks!

Depends entirely on the profile (some I set to 4:3 and some I set to square pixel). If you want to adjust width, go into the ZOOM settings and adjust the value for ZOOM_WIDTH.

Thanks! I am using Megadrive and PC Engine x4 profiles. I am also using a Neo Geo AES with Megadrive settings (if there is a better option let me know

[FBX]

Is it just my impression that when using FM at 1080p, the picture is slightly widescreen rather than proper 4:3? It seems when I switch to 720p the picture is real 4:3, but not when 1080p (without changing any settings and using FBX's settings).

Thanks!

Depends entirely on the profile (some I set to 4:3 and some I set to square pixel). If you want to adjust width, go into the ZOOM settings and adjust the value for ZOOM_WIDTH.

Thanks! I am using Megadrive and PC Engine x4 profiles. I am also using a Neo Geo AES with Megadrive settings (if there is a better option let me know

I've only done Genesis profiles of those you listed, and the 320 mode ones are in square pixel format, while the 256 ones are set to 4:3.

[Ripthorn]

I've only done Genesis profiles of those you listed, and the 320 mode ones are in square pixel format, while the 256 ones are set to 4:3.

Any chance of you make 8:7 SNES profiles?

[Fudoh]

Do you really want such a screwed up aspect ratio ? If so, all you have to do is pull up a 4x or 5x profile and reduce the horizontal width until you got your "emu" aspect ratio...

[CkRtech]

Haha. I am with camp Fudoh on this one, but I suppose choice is always a good thing.

[austin532]

What extra line are you talking about? I feel like I of all people should know this. There is only Int Line and Int Smooth when the image is integer scaled. If not then Dec Line 1, Dec Line 2, and Dec Smooth appear. Is that what you mean?

It's in regards to anything above 4x (Smart_2X) integer scaled. The Int_Smooth function doesn't line up properly even though the image is scaled properly to 5 x or 6x or what have you. So you end up having to turn Int_Smooth off by setting it at 127, but of course the remaining scanlines are much too thin.

That line tends to disappear around 100 Smooth but yeah by then they are too thin. Even if they fix that they still won't look right IMO.

[Pasky]

Where is the force YCbCr option located?

[blizzz]

HDMI_SET > OUTPUT_COLOR > AUTO (forces YCbCr) or RGB (for RGB output)

[NormalFish]

Can someone clue me in to the actual differences between DVI and HDMI? I've heard things ranging from less artifacts to more accurate colours, and honestly have no idea what's still true, if at all.

Basically: I'm using a 1080p60 Asus computer monitor for my mini, should I swap to DVI output?

[Ripthorn]

Come on guys, a lot of games looks squashed with 4:3 aspect ratio

Do you really want such a screwed up aspect ratio ? If so, all you have to do is pull up a 4x or 5x profile and reduce the horizontal width until you got your "emu" aspect ratio...

Thanks, I will toy a bit with the horizontal width option.

[Guspaz]

But they're supposed to look like that. Japan doesn't use 8:7 aspect ratio TVs.

[blizzz]

Can someone clue me in to the actual differences between DVI and HDMI?

DVI and HDMI are just slightly different ways to transport digital video. HDMI can transmit either in RGB or YCbCr and also add extra stuff like audio channels, while DVI is limited to RGB and has no audio. Although it is technically possible to transmit audio over a DVI cable too. Since we're talking about digital video, neither of them has any more artifacts than the other.