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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:56 am 


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I have a 36HS420 in my shop. Im currently using a 36FS210 in my gaming room. Its great for 240p/480i stuff, but if Mike can make a lagless mode (540p or 1080i ) thats accepted by the HS420 I would very likely make the HS my main gaming TV. It will allow for 480p, 480i (bob), and 240p and it offers a sharper picture than the FS210. It would pretty much be the perfect giant retro set for everything up to PS360 gen.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:00 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
I have a 36HS420 in my shop. Im currently using a 36FS210 in my gaming room.


I have a HS510 32" in storage. Last time I messed with it, I got a raspberry pi setup to display in 540p and it looked excellent. It took an awful lot of messing around to get the modeline right though. If Mike gets the 540p/1080i thing working, I'll definitely be interested to see how that goes. To be specific, I'd be interested in 480p in a 540p frame, centered timings and 960i in a 1080i frame, centered timings. That's what you're after, right?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:31 am 



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I'm glad you guys like yours. Sadly my experiences were less positive. First encounter with a HD-CRT was saving up all summer and buying a 36in monster with my Best Buy employee discount (side note: their extended warranties are a totals scam). Still came out to be $2000+. At the time, I never figured out why 240p games didn't look right (I mean I didn't even know what 240p was back then). Ended up giving the set to my parents. The set also had shit geometry and convergence.

2017 rolls around, got back into retro-gaming and totally forgot about this. Bought ANOTHER shitty 1080i CRT with shit convergence and geometry that wouldn't look right. Took me 3 months to get rid of that thing and stumbled onto a FV310 for $40 :D

Interesting to hear that 540p is a nice work around. I'd always kind of assumed these things were the worst of HDTVs with their garbage first gen video scalers and all the ills of CRTs (weight, geometry convergence).


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:43 am 


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That definitely sucks you spent money you felt you wasted. That's never fun. :(

Yes, you can work around the DRC chip in the service menu, as long as you feed it a 33kHz signal and turn on the bypass. I've never had bad geometry issues with the 32" 4:3 set I have. It was goofy when I first got it, but nothing a tweak in the service menu couldn't fix.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:07 am 


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Quote:
I'm glad you guys like yours. Sadly my experiences were less positive. First encounter with a HD-CRT was saving up all summer and buying a 36in monster with my Best Buy employee discount (side note: their extended warranties are a totals scam). Still came out to be $2000+. At the time, I never figured out why 240p games didn't look right (I mean I didn't even know what 240p was back then). Ended up giving the set to my parents. The set also had shit geometry and convergence.

2017 rolls around, got back into retro-gaming and totally forgot about this. Bought ANOTHER shitty 1080i CRT with shit convergence and geometry that wouldn't look right. Took me 3 months to get rid of that thing and stumbled onto a FV310 for $40 :D

Interesting to hear that 540p is a nice work around. I'd always kind of assumed these things were the worst of HDTVs with their garbage first gen video scalers and all the ills of CRTs (weight, geometry convergence).


Ouch, that sucks Mike. Do you remember what models they were? My HD CRT story dates back to November-December 2002-- I began looking for a set earlier that year, as I had purchased a set of GC component cables direct from Nintendo when they released and really wanted to experience this true 480p picture everyone was talking about. I got a deal on a shelf demo 36" Hitachi Ultravision Digital at Conn's for $900. I think price on brand new units were around $1300 at the time. It had a great picture-- curved tube, slot- shadow mask, very deep blacks. Could also accept 640x480 and 800x600 VGA in.

I too noticed that 240p looked pretty shit and also didnt really understand why, but 480p Metroid Prime via the component cables (one of the first titles I played through on the set) was glorious, as were all other 480p enabled titles on GC and Dreamcast VGA. The input lag, to my memory, was not even noticeable on 240p/480i, certainly at least not at the 48ms level which plagues the Sony HS/XBR sets. Sadly, the flyback went out on the set around 2009 and I went back to an SD CRT until getting my plasmas in 2013.

So yeah as Vol 2. has said, the sets look for a ~33- 33.75 KHz signal for its 1080i. When turning on the HDPT (HD Pass-through) option in the svc menu, this mode is 0 ms lag with a Time Sleuth. The goal for the 5X would be to produce a centered 240p/480i/480p image in a 540p (1080i non field shifting) frame.

My particular set accepts HDMI or component, and it appears that the component is more non-discriminant in accepting a source, such as 240p, while the HDMI port will only accept 480i, 720p, 1080i. I tried 240p from the Time Sleuth and the set doesnt take it in HDMI, but if I use a DAC and transcoder such as the GBS-C in passthrough mode and connect to the component port, it takes the 240p signal in all its 48ms of laggy glory. This is why Im not sure if the set will actually accept "540p" at the HDMI port, but it will definitely accept 1080i. Correct me if Im wrong, but a "non shifting field" 1080i mode should be indistinguishable from a theoretical 540p no? If so, that would be the most plausible mode to try for compatiblility sake, but if 540p is much easier to implement, by all means try that first and we can see if it works.

Other Sony HD CRT sets vary from HDMI input to DVI input for their digital in. In any case, when you decide to play around with it, I can certainly test pre-release firmware for you on the set and report back the results so you can perfect the mode to work on these sets prior to release. Thats totally up to you, I'd be more than happy to assist in that way.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:37 pm 



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Haha, I bet that shadow mask HD-CRT was something else!

I'll knock something out, hopefully soon-ish and DM it to you and vol.2. Kind of curious to see if it tracks on my 20L5. I'm not sure if the wife will let me get another CRT at this point, though LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:31 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Haha, I bet that shadow mask HD-CRT was something else!

I'll knock something out, hopefully soon-ish and DM it to you and vol.2. Kind of curious to see if it tracks on my 20L5. I'm not sure if the wife will let me get another CRT at this point, though LOL.


Awesome! Take all the time you need. According to this, the 20L5 is 1080i capable, so Im guessing it should. Will be interesting to see how the HD CRTs vs the 20L5 sync up to the 1080i/540p stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:38 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
This is why Im not sure if the set will actually accept "540p" at the HDMI port, but it will definitely accept 1080i. Correct me if Im wrong, but a "non shifting field" 1080i mode should be indistinguishable from a theoretical 540p no?


The HS510 absolutely accepts 540p. It's shows as 1080i when you are in the service menu. AFAIK, you have to use the digital input for these sets to bypass the DCR chip, because the signal path from the analog inputs turns off the HDPT bypass. Basically, the digital chip behind the HDMI/DVI input just looks for the vertical frequency and it bins the resolution as one of the things it can do. when HDPT is turned on, anything that comes in at ~32-34kHz is just binned as 1080i and sent straight to the tube. It doesn't care anymore that is progressive than an SD TV cares that an NES is 240p. If you go too far away from 33kHz, it turns the DCR chip back on and tries it's best to bin the signal and process it.

Sorry, mike, I probably can't give you feedback on this right now because my 510 is in storage. I'm deep in the woods on a couple IRL work projects and realistically test it out until the fall of this year (I'm seriously swamped). Hopefully Josh can test things out for you, and I also know that user Bahn Yuki has like 3 HDCRTs, and he would probably be into it (he's expressed interest before), if he has a tink5. I don't have one yet myself, so there's that also. I didn't get to the site in time when you sold out in like 2 minutes, and then I got overwhelmed by work stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:41 pm 


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So my 5X Pro decided to partially die on me today. I turned it on and heard a high pitched whine coming from the unit which disappeared a few seconds later. After this happened I noticed that the SCART RGB input will not work. S-Video and Component seem to work ok, but none of my RGB SCART systems will display anything. The 5X Pro is getting some sort of signal as the screen goes black and I can hear sound, but I'm seeing nothing on the screen. Sometimes I'll get some blinking pixels or a weird green garbled rectangle, but usually it's just black. I've tried all my SCART systems and they all do the same thing. I also tried bypassing my SCART switch and plugging it in directly to the 5X Pro but that didn't work either. My systems are all working fine on my CRT through a Shinybow so it's not the systems and it can't be the TV or HDMI output because as I said, S-Video and Component are both working just fine. I tried reflashing the latest firmware but it didn't fix anything.

I sent a note to Mike. I'm guessing something died inside but for the life of me I can't imagine what. It's not like any of my systems are doing TTL sync or anything like that.

EDIT: And he already got in touch with me and offered to look at the unit. No one does customer service like Retrotink


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:19 am 



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Yikes, SCART strikes again. Nice that it will be looked into, will be interesting to know what went wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:17 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Yikes, SCART strikes again. Nice that it will be looked into, will be interesting to know what went wrong.


Due to the fact that everything else on the 5X still works, Mike thinks that the SCART port itself may have fried somehow. I have no idea how that could happen though as literally nothing has changed in my setup. We went through my setup (Insurrection cables and two Otaku switches) and nothing there should be the problem. If it was something else like a power supply issue then nothing would work so it can't be that. You'd think that if something in my setup was causing the issue it would have happened before now as I've been using the 5X for a month now. I just turned it on and heard that high pitched whine for a second and that was it. I still get sound out of the SCART port so it's partially working.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:40 pm 



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mikechi2 wrote:
Haha, I bet that shadow mask HD-CRT was something else!

I'll knock something out, hopefully soon-ish and DM it to you and vol.2. Kind of curious to see if it tracks on my 20L5. I'm not sure if the wife will let me get another CRT at this point, though LOL.


Can't wait to see how this turns out. This will make HDCRTs an amazing purchase. Locally, no one snags them due to not being ideal for classic gaming. If this works it'll make these HDCRTs downright amazing for classic gaming. Thanks for your awesome products and support!


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:03 pm 



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Tempest_2084 wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Yikes, SCART strikes again. Nice that it will be looked into, will be interesting to know what went wrong.


Due to the fact that everything else on the 5X still works, Mike thinks that the SCART port itself may have fried somehow. I have no idea how that could happen though as literally nothing has changed in my setup. We went through my setup (Insurrection cables and two Otaku switches) and nothing there should be the problem. If it was something else like a power supply issue then nothing would work so it can't be that. You'd think that if something in my setup was causing the issue it would have happened before now as I've been using the 5X for a month now. I just turned it on and heard that high pitched whine for a second and that was it. I still get sound out of the SCART port so it's partially working.


Thanks for reporting you guys' findings. So many things can go wrong with SCART connectors and ports that you'll probably never know for sure what happened.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:12 pm 


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fernan1234>
Please stop with that. Sounds unlikely that the SCART connector is to blame. More likely it’s a fault with the signal coming from the console, the switch or it’s the RetroTink itself that had a fault.

I know that you constantly feel the need to bring up how horrible a connector SCART is, but I live in Europe and I’ve never personally had a single issue with loose SCART connectors nor do I know of anyone else who had.
Your crusade against SCART is for the most part unjustified and I fear that your posts can lead to other people feeling unsafe using it, which just isn’t fair.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:36 pm 


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People should absolutely feel unsafe using SCART with the RT5X, because if that SCART cable is sending TTL sync, it could damage the RT5X. So people need to verify their cable is actually adhering to the SCART spec and sending video-level sync. They don't need to worry about that if they're using any of the RT5X's other inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:44 pm 



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Konsolkongen wrote:
fernan1234>
Please stop with that. Sounds unlikely that the SCART connector is to blame. More likely it’s a fault with the signal coming from the console, the switch or it’s the RetroTink itself that had a fault.

I know that you constantly feel the need to bring up how horrible a connector SCART is, but I live in Europe and I’ve never personally had a single issue with loose SCART connectors nor do I know of anyone else who had.
Your crusade against SCART is for the most part unjustified and I fear that your posts can lead to other people feeling unsafe using it, which just isn’t fair.


Please don't take negative opinions about SCART personally, or as if it reflects on you simply because you are a SCART user. If it has worked well for you, then just happily rock on.

If faulty signals were sent to the RT5X it has to be because the SCART format or construction made it possible to do so. We can't be sure what exactly was at fault ultimately, but obviously it was enabled by the SCART port in some way.

My feel to bring up the ills of SCART connectors is not constant, but it is indeed healthy. If as a result people end up using better formats and connectors type instead, who loses or is harmed from this? SCART itself is not a person with feelings or rights to talk about it not being fair, so who is harmed?


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:18 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
People should absolutely feel unsafe using SCART with the RT5X, because if that SCART cable is sending TTL sync, it could damage the RT5X. So people need to verify their cable is actually adhering to the SCART spec and sending video-level sync. They don't need to worry about that if they're using any of the RT5X's other inputs.


What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me :)

You are right that enthusiast solutions like using professional equipment like Extron RGBHV matrixes can be problematic if you’re not cautious. I would hope that most consumer grade SCART switches follow the appropriate standards. Should one output at TTL level it’s a piece of trash, obviously :)

fernan1234 wrote:
Please don't take negative opinions about SCART personally, or as if it reflects on you simply because you are a SCART user. If it has worked well for you, then just happily rock on.

If faulty signals were sent to the RT5X it has to be because the SCART format or construction made it possible to do so. We can't be sure what exactly was at fault ultimately, but obviously it was enabled by the SCART port in some way.


The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15. They are just passive connectors. Why do you think it's unlikely that a part failed inside the RetroTink? Not saying that it did, but parts can fail :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:22 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
fernan1234>
Please stop with that. Sounds unlikely that the SCART connector is to blame. More likely it’s a fault with the signal coming from the console, the switch or it’s the RetroTink itself that had a fault.

I know that you constantly feel the need to bring up how horrible a connector SCART is, but I live in Europe and I’ve never personally had a single issue with loose SCART connectors nor do I know of anyone else who had.
Your crusade against SCART is for the most part unjustified and I fear that your posts can lead to other people feeling unsafe using it, which just isn’t fair.


I don't think he said anything incorrect.
It isn't a slight against SCART itself, it's the makeshift "SCART ecosystem" that we have now. Yes, you live in Europe, where SCART is and was common and an official standard, but if you come to North America practically EVERY SCART cable you come into contact with should be met with skepticism because unlike in Europe almost all SCART accessories that made it to North America are of dubious knockoff Chinese origin or are of dubious hobbyist origin.

Even Mike said earlier in this thread he left SCART pins unconnected because he couldn't trust what was going to come out of the cables.

It's just like saying "Don't plug a USB drive you find on the ground into your computer or you may potentially face huge malware/security issues" -- no one would infer that's because of the USB connector itself

Konsolkongen wrote:
What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me :)


Funny you said "appropriate" to exclude various real situations where inadvertently plugging in an "inappropriate" SCART cable would cause damage (see: ntsc vs. pal Nintendo scart cables)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:23 pm 



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Konsolkongen wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
People should absolutely feel unsafe using SCART with the RT5X, because if that SCART cable is sending TTL sync, it could damage the RT5X. So people need to verify their cable is actually adhering to the SCART spec and sending video-level sync. They don't need to worry about that if they're using any of the RT5X's other inputs.


What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me :)

You are right that enthusiast solutions like using professional equipment like Extron RGBHV matrixes can be problematic if you’re not cautious. I would hope that most consumer grade SCART switches follow the appropriate standards. Should one output at TTL level it’s a piece of trash, obviously :)

fernan1234 wrote:
Please don't take negative opinions about SCART personally, or as if it reflects on you simply because you are a SCART user. If it has worked well for you, then just happily rock on.

If faulty signals were sent to the RT5X it has to be because the SCART format or construction made it possible to do so. We can't be sure what exactly was at fault ultimately, but obviously it was enabled by the SCART port in some way.


The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15. They are just passive connectors. Why do you think it's unlikely that a part failed inside the RetroTink? Not saying that it did, but parts can fail :)


A general system failure would be odd, since the RGB and YPbPr systems share many of the same ICs, just using different pins (i.e. MUX) and in this case only the pins related to SCART it seems like are fried. Again obviously I'd have to get it and see.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:30 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me :)


Many (most?) consoles send TTL sync and rely on resistors in the cables to attenuate it. But you can find for sale cables with and without the appropriate restitors, because there are often many consoles that use the same connector (like, everything from RGB-modded NES through the GameCube) that may have different requirements (sometimes even different between regions), and RGB mods often have the ability to select from TTL or 75ohm, and the enduser isn't necessarily going to know if they don't have the right cable. They probably won't even know that TTL sync exists. You will never find a component cable that is sending anything but video level sync, but you can certainly find SCART cable/console combinations that will happen in the real world (perhaps through ignorance) that do this. Many SCART switches will get fried by TTL level sync too...

Konsolkongen wrote:
The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15.
There is one difference there, which is that we expect separate TTL sync on DSUB15 as this is the defined standard for using a DSUB15 as an RGBHV connector. So you will at least not have to worry about frying the device.

Any signal can be sent down any cable, but the cable/connector changes what is expected, what is permitted, and what the positive/negative scenarios are.

EDIT: And yes, the NTSC vs PAL SCART cable problem that was mentioned is certainly real, if you plug an NTSC SNES SCART cable into a PAL SNES console, you will send 12 volts down the sync line and bad things will happen. This is a risk with other connector types, but if we consider all the cable types supported by the RT5X, SCART is the only one where the 12v sync issue is possible, because none of the other types supported by the RT5X use that pin on the SNES multiout.


Last edited by Guspaz on Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:32 pm 



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darcagn wrote:
It's just like saying "Don't plug a USB drive you find on the ground into your computer or you may potentially face huge malware/security issues" -- no one would infer that's because of the USB connector itself


This is true, but also want to add that I personally do find fault with the connector itself simply because there are way better alternatives, which takes me to...

Konsolkongen wrote:
The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15. They are just passive connectors. Why do you think it's unlikely that a part failed inside the RetroTink? Not saying that it did, but parts can fail


One key difference is that a DSub-15 connector is much less likely to become accidentally dislodged from a socket, very much unlike a SCART cable which can shift even by its own weight or lack of locking for its bulky structure, and that already is a potential failure entry point.
edit: plus the other cases mentioned above. And again don't take these critical comments as anything personal. The connector/format choice is not you :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:37 pm 


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darcagn wrote:
It isn't a slight against SCART itself, it's the makeshift "SCART ecosystem" that we have now. Yes, you live in Europe, where SCART is and was common and an official standard, but if you come to North America practically EVERY SCART cable you come into contact with should be met with skepticism because unlike in Europe almost all SCART accessories that made it to North America are of dubious knockoff Chinese origin or are of dubious hobbyist origin.


I admit that I don't know anything about sourcing RGB SCART cables in the US. Then again isn't there plenty of reputable sellers of RGB SCART leads these days? I guess I can see the issue where someone who cheaps out and buys from an unknown seller in China could end up with a bad cable, but I don't see how that applies to only SCART, that could be true for all cables.

darcagn wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:
What console sends dangerous video levels through its appropriate SCART cable? I don't know of any, but if I'm wrong please do correct me :)


Funny you said "appropriate" to exclude various real situations where inadvertently plugging in an "inappropriate" SCART cable would cause damage (see: ntsc vs. pal Nintendo scart cables)


Well of course. I would assume that one uses the cable that fits their console. I agree that Nintendo SCART cables are a mess, but that's entirely Nintendos fault.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:38 pm 


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It might be Nintendo's fault, but you're never at risk of sending 5v or 12v into the RT5X with a composite, s-video, or component cable. SCART is the only input on the RT5X where you have to worry about frying it by using the wrong cable with the wrong Nintendo console.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:48 pm 



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I feel like there's a rising impetus in the retro atmosphere toward shifting to component, and even though my personally preferred approach is RGB via DE-15, I'd be more than fine if the retro scene moves in that direction more, phasing out SCART. The Tink products do seem to be playing a role in that cultural shift. We just need HDRetrovision cables (and perhaps some other competition for the benefit of all) to be stocked more, and to cover more systems, and perhaps with ramped up demand and production also lower prices.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:14 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
It might be Nintendo's fault, but you're never at risk of sending 5v or 12v into the RT5X with a composite, s-video, or component cable. SCART is the only input on the RT5X where you have to worry about frying it by using the wrong cable with the wrong Nintendo console.

...

Many (most?) consoles send TTL sync and rely on resistors in the cables to attenuate it. But you can find for sale cables with and without the appropriate restitors, because there are often many consoles that use the same connector (like, everything from RGB-modded NES through the GameCube) that may have different requirements (sometimes even different between regions), and RGB mods often have the ability to select from TTL or 75ohm, and the enduser isn't necessarily going to know if they don't have the right cable. They probably won't even know that TTL sync exists. You will never find a component cable that is sending anything but video level sync, but you can certainly find SCART cable/console combinations that will happen in the real world (perhaps through ignorance) that do this. Many SCART switches will get fried by TTL level sync too...


Yes, you are right about this when it comes to mods it does get a bit more complicated.

I guess I never really considered that anyone doing modwork or selling premodified systems would not go to great lengths to explain every little detail of the mods or any precaution the client might have to take into consideration. I know I do when I mod something for another person.

You make a good point. I accept that this could lead to some potentially unfortunate mixups :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:15 am 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
I admit that I don't know anything about sourcing RGB SCART cables in the US. Then again isn't there plenty of reputable sellers of RGB SCART leads these days? I guess I can see the issue where someone who cheaps out and buys from an unknown seller in China could end up with a bad cable


There are great reputable sellers but most people who buy cheap cables are not going to be aware that it even matters to the degree that damage could be done.

Konsolkongen wrote:
but I don't see how that applies to only SCART, that could be true for all cables.


SCART is unique, being not a video standard but a connector standard that carries multiple video standards. It means sometimes there is a necessity to include components in the cable instead of in the console, without which (e.g. in a cheap knockoff cable) can mean unexpected results
None of the other common video standards does this

Konsolkongen wrote:
Well of course. I would assume that one uses the cable that fits their console. I agree that Nintendo SCART cables are a mess, but that's entirely Nintendos fault.


Yeah, it is Nintendo's fault there. But it doesn't matter whose fault it is, at the end of the day if you connect random SCART cables found in North America you will easily end up with dead equipment, and not just on Nintendo hardware. And this doesn't happen with composite cables, s-video cables, component cables, or HDMI cables.


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:24 am 


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darcagn wrote:
SCART is unique, being not a video standard but a connector standard that carries multiple video standards. It means sometimes there is a necessity to include components in the cable instead of in the console, without which (e.g. in a cheap knockoff cable) can mean unexpected results
None of the other common video standards does this


Just about every console manufacturer were happy to put the required components in the cable rather than the consoles themselves to save a few pennies. We are not going to disagree that it would be a lot simpler if all SCART cables were just straight through :)


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:33 am 



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Posts: 204
Guspaz wrote:
And yes, the NTSC vs PAL SCART cable problem that was mentioned is certainly real, if you plug an NTSC SNES SCART cable into a PAL SNES console, you will send 12 volts down the sync line and bad things will happen.

How about a PAL Saturn sending +9 Vdc down the composite video line if you use a NTSC cable?

Potential NTSC-cable-on-PAL-console high voltage blacklist:
- SNES
- GameCube
- Saturn

Other systems of note:
- NES (some RGB mods)
- Superguns (various)

Missing any?

Guspaz wrote:
It might be Nintendo's fault, but you're never at risk of sending 5v or 12v into the RT5X with a composite, s-video, or component cable. SCART is the only input on the RT5X where you have to worry about frying it by using the wrong cable with the wrong Nintendo console.

Looking like you need overvoltage protection if you're receiving SCART, basically. Voltage clamping on the pin 20 video/sync line for sure, but I suppose a supergun could do it down any of the video lines. I could see somebody screwing up voltages on pins 8+16 for blanking and switching too I guess.

Konsolkongen wrote:
The RGB signal from the console would be no different where it passed through another connector, like a DSUB15.

I think BNC and DE15 into SCART cables are major contributors here as anything using BNC and/or DE15 on the output side will be TTL. Didn't Retro Gaming Cables recently stop selling certain versions of these cables for just this reason?

See also: All those video cables meant for MiSTer and RetroPie builds...


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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:52 am 



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Posts: 519
Preface: this is not a recommendation or feature request :D

I live in a PAL territory so I have SCART cables for GameCube and Wii but I would have no problem if SCART was removed as long as RGsB was supported on the RCA input since I would be happy to use component for both of those consoles and I already have an Extron DVI to RGB interface (can be set to output RGsB/RGBs/RGBHV) which I currently use with my ultraHDMI when feeding it into my GBSC for downscaling.


Last edited by strayan on Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:56 am 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 204
Invzim over at Arcade Projects seems to have figured out broad input voltage on the video lines with the Retro Scaler A1?

https://irkenlabs.com/retro-scaler-a1/introduction
https://www.arcade-projects.com/threads/retro-scaler-a1.9597/


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