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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:23 am 


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Icarus: asking permission if I can convert your guide into html (and thus to find a permanent host for it).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:39 pm 


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Vorpal wrote:
Icarus: asking permission if I can convert your guide into html (and thus to find a permanent host for it).


All my ST guides will be HTML'ised and hosted at featheredwings.net in the near future (when they are somewhere near completion). Thanks for the offer though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:54 pm 


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FINE then, I WON'T! ;p
Regardless, I put it into html format:

http://webpages.charter.net/bgspencer/garegga/strategy.html

I'm not terribly adept at website aesthetics, so I doubt you'll use the format. But at least the time consuming part is done (the conversion and addition of id tags).

Note: I have no intention of making that page public, it is entirely for your use, Icarus.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:52 pm 


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Actually, you did a good job of HTMLising it. My way of doing it was just shoving the BBCoded bits of the guide into Dreamweaver and using [Find And Replace] to convert the BBtags to specific HTML tags.

Aside from having the whole thing as one long webpage - I was planning on giving each section a seperate page, like the guide is at the moment with seperate editable posts - and a reworking of the text formatting, it looks good :) Thanks :D

You don't mind if I take your HTML version and tweak it? All credit will go to you for the format conversion of course. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:19 am 


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Quote:
You don't mind if I take your HTML version and tweak it? All credit will go to you for the format conversion of course.


That's what it's for ;)
But don't worry about crediting me, it only took about ~90 minutes to do, a fraction compared to the time spent writing the guide. Converting it into HTML oddly improved my Garegga game, actually ;) Because it had the side effect of me rereading it and thus filling in some gaps in my current strategy (which was: AHHH ITS A BOSS KILL IT KILL IT NOW), resulting in my highest scoring game so far!

Though I still refuse to milk Blackheart, he still fits into the "KILL IT KILL IT NOW" category ;p


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:39 am 


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Good :)
Glad that it's of some use (even though its roughly 40% done :P)

I saw your score you posted, good job on the progression. Even though the guide is still in progress and is incomplete, I can remember all the strategies for every stage, so if you need help on something, just ask here, and it shall be answered either by myself, or by Rando.

And about boss milking: even though it is classed as an advanced strategy, it might be a good idea to start getting comfortable with the bosses you can reach and their various attack patterns. Learning how to safely dodge each attack is important in learning how to exploit them for score.

For example, Black Heart's second form fires that rotary spread all around the screen. The trick in milking the second form is to just target one of the wings and apply sustained attack to it, and watch the bullet patterns carefully. The spread seems fast but there are large enough gaps to dodge through, and once figured out, the pattern itself is very simple.

EDIT: Decided to just get on with it and try to finish all the text-based info first before the rest of the supporting material comes. Therefore, Stage 4 guide added, still incomplete (requiring images, data and other stuff).
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:18 am 


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I can remember all the strategies for every stage, so if you need help on something, just ask here, and it shall be answered either by myself, or by Rando.


;)

On the first stage, what determines the initial direction the boss moves? That is, he comes on the screen moving downward, and will start moving either left or right. So far I've tried a few things and it seems random which direction he chooses... if I could exploit this somehow, it would make my strategy for him a lot more secure (I'm easily thrown off when something unexpected happens).

Do all non-boss enemies give added points if destroyed by the special weapon? (e.g. you mention the stationary planes at the end of Stage 3). I ask this because in replays I see, some players fire off their special weapon at groups of enemies where it is clearly overkill. Perhaps they are afraid of accumulating rank?

Is there a difference in strength of main shot bullets? Like with Wild Snal, the first upgrade is the same pattern, just larger. Are these bullets larger only so that they cover more area or are they doing added damage over the thin version?

Is the Stage 6 guide anywhere on your priority list? :P
In order to try and learn it I resorted to using save states in Mame; one at the cannon wall, another at the boss (since those are the only truly hard spots). I tried to develop a no-death strategy for the cannon wall after repeatedly dying to it for about an hour, and can only get it to work maybe 10% of the time, hardly useful if I was playing for real. And in order to beat the Stage 6 boss, does one have to be on methamphetamines? I spent roughly 2 hours on it and just don't see a feasable method of taking him down without dying.

Stage 6 is so hard I'll consider the game beat if I ever get by it ;p


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:59 am 


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Vorpal wrote:
On the first stage, what determines the initial direction the boss moves? That is, he comes on the screen moving downward, and will start moving either left or right.


As far as I know, there is no way to force the first boss to move in a specific initial direction when it appears. The only thing you can do in this regard is to have an alternate strategy in case the boss moves in a direction that you're not comfortable with.

It shouldn't really matter though. All that usually changes with these random starting directions is your attack timing.

Vorpal wrote:
Do all non-boss enemies give added points if destroyed by the special weapon? (e.g. you mention the stationary planes at the end of Stage 3). I ask this because in replays I see, some players fire off their special weapon at groups of enemies where it is clearly overkill. Perhaps they are afraid of accumulating rank?


Only specific flying enemies give bonus points for being destroyed with Weapon. For example, the group of flying enemies after the "house tanks" section in stage 2, or the ones that are parked and stationary after the 1UP in stage 3. All of them are the same type (that is, the same shape or design) so learn to recognise them, as they appear in fixed points in the game.

Besides, using Weapon actually increases rank at a higher rate than using Shot. It's just that you use Weapon a lot less, so the rank increase isn't that significant.

Vorpal wrote:
Is there a difference in strength of main shot bullets? Like with Wild Snal, the first upgrade is the same pattern, just larger. Are these bullets larger only so that they cover more area or are they doing added damage over the thin version?


Pretty much both of those points. With Shot, the strength is determined by the thickness of the bullets fired, so the thicker the bullets, the more powerful they are. Increased range is just a side-effect of upgrading to higher levels.

On that note, I recently acquired the Gamest Garegga replay VHS. The replay was an Iron Mackerel player, not as high scoring as the one on the Saturn disc, but what was interesting was that the player on the VHS never upgraded past level 2 shot, and instead relied on the thicker version of the initial Shot, plus more Options to increase the firepower.

That's one of the reasons why I love Garegga. You can come up with totally different stage strategies to other players based on your own level of skill and playing style, and still meet the same end product.

Vorpal wrote:
Is the Stage 6 guide anywhere on your priority list? :P


Yes, once I'm done typing up Stage 5 ;)

Vorpal wrote:
In order to try and learn it I resorted to using save states in Mame; one at the cannon wall, another at the boss (since those are the only truly hard spots).


CANNON WALL:
The key to passing the cannon wall safely is to concentrate on destroying one side of the wall first before the other. To do that, you must learn to lead the bullets that are fired to places that you can easily escape from when they are fired.

You can also use Homing Options to tackle the cannon wall. To get Homing Options requires a bit of setting up in stage 5. Before Black Heart is a giant green bomber. Next to the main weakpoint - the cockpit - are ten turrets, which when destroyed leave small bullets.

Image

By leaving five of these bullets to drop off the screen after you destroy the bomber, you can guarantee yourself Homing Options the next time you pick up an Option powerup.

BOSS:
  • first form:
    The first form (when it appears and moves up the screen) isn't really that difficult, Just watch out for the aimed groups of missiles.
  • second form (main core with large turret wall):
    All these turrets - and the main core of the boss itself - will fire aimed spreads at you. The amount of bullets and their speeds are determined by how many of these turrets you have destroyed.

    You can just target the main core of the boss and apply sustained damage to it in order to kill it quickly, or you can destroy just one side of the turret wall, which will force the main core to fire a spread at you. The speed of this spread shouldn't be too difficult to handle if you only destroy one side of the turret wall.
  • third form (main core):
    This thing's a pain in the ass. The turret mounted in the center of the main core is indestructible, and fires a wide spread of bullets in your direction, alternating from left-right to right-left. The only way to dodge this spread attack is to lead it from one side of the screen to another, and dodge wide around the spread pattern.

    There are also four turrets (large ones) mounted to the sides of the main core. These fire aimed bullets, which can obstruct your dodging of the main spread. You can destroy these, but once you destroy all four, the boss will fire a very fast enclosing volley of bullets at you. You can tell when this bullet volley is coming when you hear a "chime" preceding the attack. To dodge the bullet volley, stay in the center of the screen, and move around the center group of missiles when they appear.
  • fourth form (core with arms):
    If you got to this point, then well done! This form is the easiest, and most profitable.

    The arms will move about randomly, occasionally picking up a turret and placing it on the ground in front of the main core. These arms are worth a lot of points when destroyed, and are constantly regenerating, so you can feel free to milk the arms for all your worth. The turrets these arms drop can be destroyed as well.

    The main core will fire a random scatter attack around the screen, that with a bit of practice becomes easy to avoid.
  • final form (core escaping):
    The last form is a combination of the first and fourth forms - it's the main core on it's lonesome, moving down the screen. Like the fourth, it fires a random scatter attack, and like the first, it fires aimed groups of missiles at you. Lead the missiles to places where you can dodge easily, and quickly destroy the core before it escapes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:54 pm 


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Thanks for the post, valuable information.

Now knowing that the wider bullets do more damage, I've been going for those instead (I was sticking to the wide-spread thin bullets until now). It's not a huge difference, but at certain points I will notice the bonus damage, especially during Earth Crisis, it really hurts his little turrets.

I tackled the cannon wall again, and can now beat him without dying roughly 50% of the time. Sometimes it will stagger the way it fires missiles, sometimes it fires all 8 missiles at a time... when it staggers them, I usually die. However I kindof ignored your strategy ^^; Instead of destroying one side first, I hang around the middile and go for the missile turrets, sweeping side-to-side, once the missiles are all dead I'll use the special weapon to get rid of the front-turrets and the rest is easy. Next time I have a decent game going I need to try out your homing option suggestion.

Random question; what is up with the weird car that comes out of one of the tank garages in stage 6? And later on a bull dozer? That's just plain weird man ;p


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41 pm 


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Does the Saturn version dynamically slow down during bullet spam? Because on the arcade version it most definitely does, and can be exploited. As a tip for arcade users, the Stage 2 Boss when in his first form only has 1 difficult attack (the spinning bullet stream), and if you shoot while he is doing this, there will be a slowdown effect which makes it easier to dodge.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:44 pm 


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I think the Saturn version has the slowdown incorporated, and I think there is a WAIT option which allows you to switch the slowdown on or off.

I'll pop up a translation of the menu screen for those who don't use the Easy Menu option soon.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:18 am 


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Another quick question, if you don't mind, Icarus...I know that using a special option formation increases rank, but how so, exactly? Is it just a one-time increase that occurs as soon as you activate the thing, or does it make each option bullet shot increase rank even more than usual as long as it's in effect? If I activate a formation by accident, can I save myself a bit o' extra rank by quickly switching back to a normal formation, or does it not matter at that point?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:30 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Another quick question, if you don't mind, Icarus...I know that using a special option formation increases rank, but how so, exactly? Is it just a one-time increase that occurs as soon as you activate the thing, or does it make each option bullet shot increase rank even more than usual as long as it's in effect? If I activate a formation by accident, can I save myself a bit o' extra rank by quickly switching back to a normal formation, or does it not matter at that point?


No prob, I like answering Garegga questions :)

With Special Formations, the rank increases are higher than regular Option Formations vis-a-vis bullets fired from your Options. To quote Rando's input regarding these values:

Randorama wrote:
Every single bullet you shoot increases rank. How much?

NORMAL BULLETS (SHOT, NON PENETRATIVE ONES): 1 point per single bullet

NORMAL BULLETS, PENETRATIVE SHOT(S): 3 points per single bullet

OPTION SHOTS: 2 points per single bullet fired from single option

OPTION SHOTS, SPECIAL FORMATIONS: 3 or 4, can't recall -_-;


I don't think that you get an activation increase, although I might be wrong. And yes, you can save yourself the hassle of accidental Special activation, by just pressing the Option button. You will reset your Options back to the standard Spread form, which also removes the extra rank increases imposed on your Option shots.

There are some places where you will need Specials, but those are for very advanced scoring techniques (such as getting Wide to take out both sets of flying drones that appear at the sides of the screen with the large tank in stage 2, or getting Homing for the flying platforms in stage 5).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:33 am 


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Dang, I didn't even need to ask that, did I. :oops: Thanks again for the help. I'm sure I'll have more questions for you before too long...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:42 am 


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Hey, no problem :)
"Knowledge is power", and I don't mind sharing it.

It's good to see you're sticking with Rust Champion for the time being, so good luck on your progression. A few players are using non-Snail ships in the score thread (Chitta, Gain, R-Champion) so at least players are willing to try something different in this game, which is encouraging. I'm a Bat player myself, but have dabbled with Bornnam (ABC), Reinforcer and Gain (C) during my long study of the game.

I'll be done typing up stage 5 this week, and I'll post it as soon as it's done. I know a lot of players are interested in some strats for the best of the Garegga stages :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:51 am 


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Actually, Rust Champion is a version of the Wild Snail (the "shot power up" type), so I'm afraid I'm not as unique as you thought, heh heh. I've actually been thinking about asking Rando to include separate score tables in his HS thread for the different planes (the "basic" types anyways) to encourage some variety, since almost no one uses anything other than Wild Snail variations (I've tried them out, obviously, but I can't score as high with them as I do with the Snail).

But then that would be suggesting some sort of imperfection in the game, wouldn't it, and darlings, that just isn't done! :P ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:53 am 


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Hoo boy, this is even more insane than I expected. Thanks for the guide, it's really, really good. Better than I am, really, as I can't do anything in it right. :lol: Playing Ibara got me interested in trying to get good at (or at least come to grips with) Raizing-style rank based games, so I'm going to spend some time with Garegga. Wish me luck. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:59 pm 



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BulletMagnet wrote:
Actually, Rust Champion is a version of the Wild Snail (the "shot power up" type), so I'm afraid I'm not as unique as you thought, heh heh. I've actually been thinking about asking Rando to include separate score tables in his HS thread for the different planes (the "basic" types anyways) to encourage some variety, since almost no one uses anything other than Wild Snail variations (I've tried them out, obviously, but I can't score as high with them as I do with the Snail).

But then that would be suggesting some sort of imperfection in the game, wouldn't it, and darlings, that just isn't done! :P ;)


Ehr...

A) Why don't you just ask? :? (in the high score thread...)
B) Battle Garegga is perfect but i, humble mortal, i'm not, so i can add different tables.
Beside that, i still have to see a game that succeds in having all the planes to score more or less the same :?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:07 pm 


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Randorama wrote:
Beside that, i still have to see a game that succeds in having all the planes to score more or less the same :?

Heh, my apologies, I wasn't sure whether or not the scoring discrepancies between the different craft in this game was open for discussion or not. Seeing as it apparently is...

Quote:
A) Why don't you just ask? :? (in the high score thread...)

I shall, posthaste. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:22 am 


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The only problem I see with having a consolidated table is the ships differ wildly with regards to maximum possible score (Gain can get 20mil, while Snail averages around 15mil, Grasshopper about 14mil, Chitta estimated around 12-13mil etc).

Scoring with other ships usually just means reworking existing strategies to account for the strengths and weaknesses of a particular chosen craft.

Seperate tables might encourage more competition between each ships, and thus might get more players having a go. I'd like to see someone get close to an ALL with Chitta if the tables are added ;)

It's up to Rando though, if he thinks it's a good idea, and doesn't mind the extra work ;) Might give me an excuse to have another go with Flying Baron.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:30 pm 



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Please give me a few days, i'm oberated by work right now...sorry :?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:26 pm 


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Heheh, in your own time, Rando mate. No one is in any hurry for it :)
I'm in the middle of all sorts of things myself, so I know how you feel. (I'm busy with my job, writing up the Novice Mission part of the Raiden DX ST for you, and compiling stages 5 and 6 of this here Garegga guide. And taking part in an online chess tournament ;))
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:47 pm 


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Here's a question I've been meaning to ask, but keep forgetting: it doesn't have anything to do with the "core" game, and I'm not sure if you'd know it, but I'll at least give it a try. In the Saturn Garegga's "Score Attack" mode (maybe we oughta have a HS table for those? :)), is there any way to use any of the alternate "types" of planes? I've only been able to use the normal speed/normal hitbox types in that mode; if there's a way to use the extra types I haven't found it. Any official word on that?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:07 pm 


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Yes, something to do with holding X (for the B type), Y (for the C type) or Z (for the ABC type), when you select Score Attack Start.

The only problem with Score Attack I've found is that you're always started off at the lowest possible rank. If there was an option to set the rank level, it would be a pretty handy practice tool.

On a similar note, did you know of the extra game modes?

Code:
* Special modes (on title screen at Game Start)
  X + Start = "Extended" - two loops
  Y + Start = "Harder" - one loop, 2nd loop difficulty
  X + Y + Start = "Special" - Harder + Extended (oh yes, two loop, 2nd and 3rd loop diff.)
  Hold Z as well if you want stage edit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:21 pm 


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Thanks, I'll give that a try next time I pull Garegga out. :)

But honestly, what use do you think a player of my caliber has for increased difficulty and/or a second loop? :mrgreen: Though I think the Stage Edit is also enable-able in the options menu someplace.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:14 pm 


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My data is a little bit wrong. Here's the correct info for Score Attack alternate ship selection:

Code:
  At the score attack screen:
  Y + Start - Faster
  Z + Start - Smaller hit size
  X + Y + Z + Start - Faster + Smaller hit size
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:59 am 


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Another brief inquiry, if it's okay...is it known if different "sub-types" of bullets increase rank by different amounts? For instance, "option" bullets are listed as increasing rank by a set amount, but do, say, Gain's swords or Chitta's homing shots add more to rank than "normal" option shots, or is it the same for all? By the same token, do "large" bullets on your craft's "main" gun add more rank than "small" ones? If this was already listed in the ST someplace, I apologize for missing it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:44 am 


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All of your attacks fall into four categories - Shot, Option, Penetrative and Weapon - and they are governed by this list that Rando added to the ST:

Quote:
Every single bullet you shoot increases rank. How much?

NORMAL BULLETS (SHOT, NON PENETRATIVE ONES): 1 point per single bullet
NORMAL BULLETS, PENETRATIVE SHOT(S): 3 points per single bullet
OPTION SHOTS: 2 points per single bullet fired from single option
OPTION SHOTS, SPECIAL FORMATIONS: 3 or 4, can't recall -_-;
WEAPON SHOTS (WHEN YOU TAKE THEM IN EXCESS): should be 4, not entirely sure. If you're getting them as bonuses instead of bombing a lot, you're doing something wrong
WEAPON SHOTS (WHEN YOU USE THEM): 1 point, I think. Yes, this means that EVERYTHING you shoot will increase rank. Nasty, eh?


All Options, regardless of capability, are classed as OPTION, and thus are govened by it's rules of rank increase. Small and large Shot bullets are classed as NON-PENETRATIVE SHOT, while small and large penetrating Shot bullets are classed as PENETRATIVE SHOT. Therefore size of the actual Shot is irrelevant when referring to it's effect on rank, but the actual behaviour of the Shot bullets themselves are important.

Pretty evil, I might add, but also very balanced when you think about it. For instance, Wild Snail would cause the most rapid rank increase due to the fact that it has two non-penetrative and two penetrative shot bullets at lvl 5 (maximum, not special lvl6) Shot strength. To counteract this, Wild Snail has the one of the highest powers, and is also able to score the most consistently within all the stages - roughly 1.5mil to 2.5mil per stage after the first.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:18 pm 


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Hmm, that's interesting, this could open up some interesting possibilities when playing with the Mahou gang, in particular. Thanks! :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:54 pm 



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Except for Chitta, the Mahou gang is stronger (i.e. better scores). On Miyamoto: i think that if you learn to handle frequencies properly, you should be able to tear down enemies quickly and efficiently, and most important thing of all, with no more than 2 options. However, this is the most difficult thing to learn: beside learning to tap properly (i.e. try to increase speed and have the game to record a coherent stream), you have to mentally keep record of your speed. Let's do some math: by default, you go at speed 3 (i.e. three shots per second), and this means that a level 4 main shot and two options do increase the rank in a minute of:

[3x1(penetrative shot)+1x2(non-penetrative shot)+2x2(two options)]x(3 frames x 60 secs)=1620 points. This means that you will need roughly 5 minutes and an half to get to level 2 rank (10k points), which is the first 2 stages, more or less (if you don't fool aroun shooting when you don't, too). Now, since you don't really need the options (with Miyamoto) unless you want to play for score, you can even increase the speed to 4 or 5 and tear apart the first 5 stages quickly, roughly 20 minutes:

5(shot)x5x60x20=30k.

.Let's say that you do the flamingoes trick (the only score-based thing you can really need) and thus you die twice on stage 1/2: your rank will be at around 4k before those two deaths, then halved (first death) then to 1/4.

4k->2k->500 pts.

You do the second stage (let's say another 5k rank points) an die, so you go

500+5k->1,25k (assuming that you go back to your last life).

third stage:

1,25k+5k->1,5k (roughly)...etc, you get a rough increment of a few hundred points overall, as long as you keep your trick of last life going. Mind you: if you use your penultimate life instead it's:

500+5k->2,7k then 2,7k+5k->3,9k etc, and in both cases, you can reach stage 6 on rank 1 (first case, it's around 3k or something; second case, 8k,so be careful).

This is were the real battle begins: first, from now on, the game is hard, regardless of rank. The best thing to do is starting the stage with an extend at hand and then learning to squeeze this stage for points. This is a pain in the ass, as the stage is poor (intention of the designers...it's all about blasting stuff and see who's the strongest, fuck stupid suicide tecniques). The turning point is this: if you can learn to do well this stage, you can get a couple of M and thus a couple of extends. Rank will increase consistently (because you need at least 2 options, a good fire rate, etc) and you surely will trigger the second rank.

If you're next to an extend and you can suicide, do it immediately and then start collecting lives. You should be able to stay in the 2k rank points range and accumulate two lives (say, you're to 4,9 M and you have one life in stock: blast yourself and then get two extends at 5 and 6). This stage should be 4 minutes long, and thus the rank increase is about 8 to 10 k (according to number of options and frequency: if you do it well, frequency 4 and 2 options are enough). This means that that your rank level may or may not switch to 2 by the last stage...suicide again if you're in time (see bullets' speed at stage 7, if it appears to be faster, store the life). From now on, quickly go to bosses. If you're on ranks 1 or 2, there may be a good chance, as they don't have too many hit points and thus they will die in a decent amount of time (well, 20% less, but this means about 2-3k rank points less. If you have triggered the second rank, it's nice to keep it low, the third starts at 5k!).

From this point on, what matters is having a bomb at disposal: the only true mind-boggling attack by Black Heart mkII is the vulcan spread before it explodes, as it requires pixel-perfect precision and can fuck you two lives you if panic-bomb too early. Learn to dodge it for at least a few seconds and bomb at the very last moment, so you will cancel less bullets and the bomb may last enough.

Glow Squid... fuck it, power-up and learn to do it well, rank at thi point is uninfluent, as the difference is only between maxed out and non-maxed out. This also means that it's a wall of difficulty, so don't expect to change things by this moment.

Chaotic explanation, i know, but please let me know what you can (and cannot) understand.

AND NO ISTOGRAMS OF THE RANK INCREASE


:lol: :lol:
_________________
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.


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