ST: Under Defeat (WIP)

Kiken · Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 3812

The scoring video that was linked to was my stage 5 comparison vid. The first half is UD HD running on a 360, the second half is the DC version. Both were played in tate. As I stated before when I first wrote up my thoughts on the newer version, slowdown is inconsistent between Yoko and Tate. The reason why you aren't seeing that horrendous slowdown during the second form of the stage 5 boss, DTP, is because you are playing in Yoko.

DrTrouserPlank · Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 1084

Kiken wrote:

The scoring video that was linked to was my stage 5 comparison vid. The first half is UD HD running on a 360, the second half is the DC version. Both were played in tate. As I stated before when I first wrote up my thoughts on the newer version, slowdown is inconsistent between Yoko and Tate. The reason why you aren't seeing that horrendous slowdown during the second form of the stage 5 boss, DTP, is because you are playing in Yoko.

OK, fair enough. At least that explains it.

Erppo · Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 1141 Location: Finland

Haha, wow. This makes a pretty big difference in that phase with everything but the main cannon attack becoming really trivial to dodge. Guess I have to bother rotating my screen for once.

DrTrouserPlank · Joined: 09 Jan 2009 Posts: 1084

I'm going to try posting here, but I don't have a specific question.

I have said that I could potentially clear this game, that is to say that I can actually complete all parts of the game without losing unreasonable amount of lives. In fact I can no-miss a lot of it, but not necessarily all in one run.

Other than trying to get better at points where I'm weaker (stage 4 really) is there anything else I can do apart from keep grinding out hundreds of credits in arcade? It just feels like a case of attrition more than anything which I can't believe is a good thing to be thinking. I can play practice mode all day long but that's not actually going to get me my 1cc; eventually I've got to actually run the game a few times.

Scoring isn't too bad. Assuming about 800k from stage 5 I'm on for about 2.4M for the clear.

Erppo · Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 1141 Location: Finland

DrTrouserPlank wrote:

Other than trying to get better at points where I'm weaker (stage 4 really) is there anything else I can do apart from keep grinding out hundreds of credits in arcade? It just feels like a case of attrition more than anything which I can't believe is a good thing to be thinking.

Put more thought into it. Just because you have a method of doing some part doesn't necessarily mean it's a good method. You might be attempting to do things in a needlessly risky way, or just not noticing some detail.

EmperorIng · Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 4164 Location: Chicago, IL

Sorry to bump, but as far as rank works, if I'm not playing for score, will suiciding early in the game make some of the later stages (esp. stage 3!) easier?

Or should I just proceed as normal and hope for the best?

I can get through the first two stages without much difficulty (a mistake might cause a death in stage 2), but it's not really until the stage 3 midboss, or boss that I really start feeling the pain.

[[I love how the DC version does practice mode though. I hated how in Ikaruga, to practice a stage you needed to beat it. Seems sort of counter-intuitive for a console release. I'm glad I can actually spend time getting to know the stages instead of just playing stages 1 and 2 over and over again.]]

Kiken · Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 3812

EmperorIng wrote:

Sorry to bump, but as far as rank works, if I'm not playing for score, will suiciding early in the game make some of the later stages (esp. stage 3!) easier?

Or should I just proceed as normal and hope for the best?

I can get through the first two stages without much difficulty (a mistake might cause a death in stage 2), but it's not really until the stage 3 midboss, or boss that I really start feeling the pain.

[[I love how the DC version does practice mode though. I hated how in Ikaruga, to practice a stage you needed to beat it. Seems sort of counter-intuitive for a console release. I'm glad I can actually spend time getting to know the stages instead of just playing stages 1 and 2 over and over again.]]

Suiciding early is a tactic purely done for score, I don't recommend using it until you're very familiar with the game. If you're spending time in Practice Mode, push stage 3 to rank +10 and play with it there. The thing that also needs to be said is that stage 3 is easily the most difficult level in the game (especially to score well on). Another thing that will really help with playing against the stage 3 midboss (and the game in general) is having a good sense of where the hitbox is... the best visual cue I can give you is the center of the rotor assembly (the grey pentagon that the blades are attached to). Keep a close eye on that and carefully thread that between the horizontal rain patterns that the midboss launches.

EmperorIng · Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 4164 Location: Chicago, IL

Trying at rank 10?
Yikes :oops:

Thanks for the advice though, in case I went and did something stupid! Sometimes it is hard to keep track of the hitbox, but I think whenever you die the game reminds you where it is for a brief moment.

As it stands right now, I've gotten to stage 5 on 5 credits; as far as stage 3 goes, I usually use a bomb on the midboss and just sort of use Cannon or Rocket to kill it off quickly. It was actually killing the midboss quickly that I discovered (at least I think) that the game has "reward" enemies that show up if you kill certain enemies quickly.

Stevens · Joined: 01 May 2014 Posts: 3101 Location: Brooklyn NY

Super necropost inbound.

I wrote this up at the request of another forum member, it is a small stage 5 boss guide (2nd phase), and at the suggestion of a 2nd forum member I am posting it here:

--

Spoiler: show

I always use the rocket option.

In general during phase 2 I am usually to one side of the screen, and I try to always let that be the opposite side the cannon is facing. the only time I am at the bottom is if I am dodging the vulcan attack.

Phase 2 has 3 attacks (from the inside out), and generally how I deal with them:

1- The giant cannon in the middle, it will track you before it attacks.
If the cannon spins, faces you, and waits it is going to fire. I get to the opposite side of the screen (generally the bottom corners) as fast as possible. If you're quick enough the screen will cut off part of the attack off making it easier to dodge. It will turn to you again and you simply go to the opposite side again. Sometimes the attack won't be cut off and you'll have to dodge between the shots. When it uses this attack it will fire 3 times before switching to the next attack. Practice mode!!

2- The twin vulcan machine guns. These are actually easier to dodge on 2-5, go figure.

These will start to spin and fire first, then track you. When they start to spin I position myself at the bottom middle of the screen and start firing. When it sweeps past I pick my window and dodge and then dodge again. You will have to do this about 3 times total before it gets bored and moves on to the next attack. This one is really just a matter of learning the spacing between the bullets. Again practice mode!

3- The starbursts on the outside, it will track you before it attacks.
This one is the biggest pain in the ass. As the cannon is turning to face you it will usually start firing before it stops. I wait till I am about to get hit and bomb. If there is one left move to the opposite side and dodge or bomb if you need to, but one of them isn't too bad.

My only plan with this phase is to destroy the left most starburst first in hopes that I can save a bomb should I need it on phase 3. When the timer hits 165 and it begins to face you I get on the left. As soon as it is a live target I fire the rocket at the left starburst and keep shooting the shit out of it. From this point it will pick its first attack and I refer you to numbers 1,2, or 3 up top.

The final stage is basically a big boss fest. Two tanks at the start, the plane, the train, and those three flying nightmares from hell (after much failure I own those bastards now!). It is the hardest stage (was for me anyway) and definitely took the longest for me to no miss.

Typically if I get to stage 5 with 1 ship in reserve I'm in good shape, and I can usually no miss to that point but not always. If I die more than once before the final stage its probably a lost cause :lol:

Remember - practice mode is your friend, and the one is UD is damn good.

--

I would happily write more if anyone needs help with anything else in the game.

Stevens · Joined: 01 May 2014 Posts: 3101 Location: Brooklyn NY

Stage 4 Boss NMNB Strategy.

Stage 2-4/Difficulty Hard - This has also been tested and works on the default settings in loop one.

Special Notes - The main gun runs on a four one thousand count. It starts up for two and fires for two.

Takes three rockets to get it done.

-----

Spoiler: show

-----
RNG Fuckery

Spoiler: show

BareKnuckleRoo · Joined: 03 Oct 2011 Posts: 4569 Location: Southern Ontario

Of the three helicopters available in the updated releases that include New Order, what's generally considered the easiest for survival to use? Currently I'm assuming:

• The default helicopter is the fastest, has the second-easiest time shooting down homing missiles, and has a charge shot. The best for scoring, possibly the best for survival due to having faster movement than the other two helicopters.

• The white helicopter sucks due to a lack of a charge shot, and lower movement speed. The spreadshot does make it the best at stopping enemy homing missiles and small helicopters though. It's awkward to hit with the Cannon weapon but it's probably the best choice on the final boss due to how its Vulcan and Rocket weapons are spread out more.

• The big red helicopter may be better than default for survival? The homing missiles interfere with scoring, it may possibly have a bigger than normal hitbox, and it has lower movement speed than the original helicopter, meaning you can't make some dodges as safely. It also has the hardest time dealing with enemy homing missiles due to a thin main shot. Better than the white helicopter thanks to its charge shot capabilities for sure. I can't tell if the extra damage and blasts from the homing missiles it launches make up for its lower movement speed though.

I assume the standard helicopter is identical whether using the red or the green version; its performance seems to be the same.

EmperorIng · Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 4164 Location: Chicago, IL

Another bump!

It's fun to see the me that was just starting out playing shmups a few posts above :wink:

In the 8 or 9 years since that post I've come back to this determined for a 1ALL. I've made it to the 1-5 boss a couple of times! I was wondering if there was a reliable way to gauge when the main cannon fires its shot. Sometimes it seems to shoot immediately, other times, it wiggles around a long time, and sometimes it is in-between! I cannot grasp a good consistency and I figured I would ask because my most recent run earlier today ended by that big fucking cannon blasting me in the middle of the screen, making me really upset.

So Stevens, Kiken, any advice or insight on that attack? :mrgreen:

I -think- I notice a pattern in which the main cannon's fire, when it spawns those thin lines, alternates with a spread that is aimed inbetween your current position, and then aimed in the center of your current position, if that makes sense. At least it seems that way when I was trying earlier. I doubt it is randomly chosen.

Kiken · Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 3812

EmperorIng wrote:

Another bump!

It's fun to see the me that was just starting out playing shmups a few posts above :wink:

In the 8 or 9 years since that post I've come back to this determined for a 1ALL. I've made it to the 1-5 boss a couple of times! I was wondering if there was a reliable way to gauge when the main cannon fires its shot. Sometimes it seems to shoot immediately, other times, it wiggles around a long time, and sometimes it is in-between! I cannot grasp a good consistency and I figured I would ask because my most recent run earlier today ended by that big fucking cannon blasting me in the middle of the screen, making me really upset.

So Stevens, Kiken, any advice or insight on that attack? :mrgreen:

I -think- I notice a pattern in which the main cannon's fire, when it spawns those thin lines, alternates with a spread that is aimed inbetween your current position, and then aimed in the center of your current position, if that makes sense. At least it seems that way when I was trying earlier. I doubt it is randomly chosen.

Unfortunately, the cannon wiggle is total RNG shenanigans. Sometimes it'll play cat-n-mouse with you, other times it clearly has had enough of your games and just fires. The linear vertical shafts of return fire can be dodged by simply maneuvering over the center of the H on either of the helipads, however, this only works 85% of time. The other 15% of the time you're going to need to perform a quick tap dodge to avoid being hit.

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