shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:43 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Whats it gonna Be??
An exciting return to the series after a 30 year hiatus 58%  58%  [ 7 ]
Another Soundtrack CD 42%  42%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 12
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 1001
Location: Fairfax, VA
Herr Schatten wrote:
Marc wrote:
plays and behaves exactly like the original from what I remember.

So it plays like shit?


That's pretty much every version of SOTB in a nutshell though, right? :lol:
_________________
YouTube | Twitch | Website | STG 1CC List


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:50 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Austin wrote:
That's pretty much every version of SOTB in a nutshell though, right? :lol:


Actually, no. It's known that some developers were painfully aware of the shortcomings of the original design, and (maybe coupled with the fact that they just couldn't replicate the visual splendor) worked around corners to make the game less punishing and more playable.

Last time I checked DMA design's PCE-CD version seemed the more balanced of the lot. But also the SMS version has its fans.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 1001
Location: Fairfax, VA
Turrican wrote:
Austin wrote:
That's pretty much every version of SOTB in a nutshell though, right? :lol:


Actually, no. It's known that some developers were painfully aware of the shortcomings of the original design, and (maybe coupled with the fact that they just couldn't replicate the visual splendor) worked around corners to make the game less punishing and more playable.

Last time I checked DMA design's PCE-CD version seemed the more balanced of the lot. But also the SMS version has its fans.


I was more referring to the "playing like shit" part. I think the PCE CD version falls in that category for one reason or another, as other versions do. They all have their quirks. That said, I'm still a fan of it, and a lot of the other versions. Even the US Genesis version that plays too fast (it was the first version of Beast I finished. Brutal). Lynx one has always held a special place for me especially. I really like what they added and how they reworked the existing levels. It's the most manageable gameplay-wise too, but it's still not what I would call "kind" to the player. Timing is still strict.

I have no idea how anyone could enjoy the SMS port though. There's got to be a contrarian or two in every circle, I guess.
_________________
YouTube | Twitch | Website | STG 1CC List


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:58 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2879
Location: Germany
Austin wrote:
I have no idea how anyone could enjoy the SMS port though. There's got to be a contrarian or two in every circle, I guess.

I haven't played it myself, but I remember it getting quite good reviews back in the day, which puzzled me even then. Videos of it make it look exactly as dire as you'd expect, though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:58 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Herr Schatten wrote:
I remember it getting quite good reviews back in the day, which puzzled me even then. Videos of it make it look exactly as dire as you'd expect, though.


I think It was a combo of amazement that It was getting a port at all, three good years since the original, on a japanese 8bit console, by a californian developer. That and the fact that they had shuffled things a bit (not to the extent of SMS ghouls n ghosts, but you get the idea). The complete name of the release, according to the manual, should in fact be "Shadow of the Beast Mastermix '92", although no one refers to It that way.

Remember, in 1992 the Master System was already long dead in the US. The reviews therefore were from an european continental or more likely from a British publication. Virgin Mastertronic was the distributor and responsible for the SMS fortunes this side of the pond, so for British magazines It was delightful to assess the clout of their soft power (I think SMS Kick Off was the highest rated software *ever* for the console on Mean Machines and / or CVG). The fact that they had "Beast" sold to the world was a bit like when they had given the world Beatles. :wink:
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:46 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 2599
Location: Wigan, England.
Austin wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote:
Marc wrote:
plays and behaves exactly like the original from what I remember.

So it plays like shit?


That's pretty much every version of SOTB in a nutshell though, right? :lol:


Honestly, back in the day I enjoyed the C64 cart version enough to complete it.
Still very European, but they'd jettisoned a lot of the shit in the Amiga version and it wasn't bad at all.
_________________
XBL & Switch: mjparker77 / PSN: BellyFullOfHell


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:40 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Marc wrote:
they'd jettisoned a lot of the shit in the Amiga version and it wasn't bad at all.


It's a well known story. To quote the relevant passage:

"Cinemaware ported Defender of the Crown to a plethora of other platforms over the next couple of years. Ironically, virtually all of the ports were much better game games than the Amiga version, fixing the minigames to make them comprehensible and reasonably entertaining and tightening up the design to make it at least somewhat more difficult to sleepwalk to victory."

Rough diamonds that need another cut. If you read along the lines, you'll see It's the story underlying this thread too.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:46 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 1368
Location: UK
Turrican Flashback on the way - regular retail release cut dowm from the anthology collection:

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/ ... n_december

Regular retail release for Amiga Turrican 1 & 2, and Mega and Super Turrican. I suppose they can't undercut the anthology release but I find it a bit odd to release a cut down version for regular retail. Super Turrican 2, although it's a more linear departure for the series, is still worth the admission price of the anthology. Presumably they'll slap it out on the eshop later separately?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 1785
Location: Colin's Bargain Basement. Everything must go.
Sneaky. Definitely woundn't have pre-ordered the March/April release if I'd have known there was a retail version coming in December. Won't fool me twice!
_________________
The biggest unanswered question is where is the money?

1CCS


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:40 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4703
Location: Finland
Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:
Sneaky. Definitely woundn't have pre-ordered the March/April release if I'd have known there was a retail version coming in December. Won't fool me twice!


Worth noting that this and the releases from Strictly Limited Games do not have the same content, with SLG's having more games included, assuming you got both of the Turrican Anthologies either individually or as part of the Collector's Editions.
_________________
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.

My videos
Rolling Start!! - Arcade Racing Game Forum


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:57 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 1785
Location: Colin's Bargain Basement. Everything must go.
^We get all the director's cuts/remixes then a CD, artbook and bluray "documentary". I think ST2 is basically worthless, time will tell if all this is worth the extra time and money. Oh and it's April/May release.
_________________
The biggest unanswered question is where is the money?

1CCS


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:26 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 1368
Location: UK
Super Turrican 2 might be a stylistic departure for the series but what makes it worthless?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:17 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 1785
Location: Colin's Bargain Basement. Everything must go.
ST2 is a mish-mosh of poorly implemented ideas rolled together. In no particular order: The pointless tank section, the bland 3D bike levels, the horrible 3D flying level, the cringeworthy 'cinematic' interludes and a final boss that would look more at home in a Sonic the Hedgehog game. Everything that made the first couple of games great ie. open level exploration, great situational weaponry and excellent tunes have been erased in favour of Factor 5 trying to emulate whatever they were playing in their lunch hours. The decline started with T3 which played decently but was obviously an unsuccessful attempt to remake Contra 3 (that Terminator boss) rather than produce a legitimate continuation. There's more Contra 3 ideas show up in ST2 - missile leaping, driving.

Huelsbeck was well into his 'orchestral' phase (probably getting ready to score Rogue Squadron) and I have to say that besides 'wormland' there isn't a single memorable tune in the whole game.

The underwater bit! Ugh. I think that less than 50% of the game is actually platforming.
_________________
The biggest unanswered question is where is the money?

1CCS


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:12 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:
ST2 is a mish-mosh of poorly implemented ideas rolled together. In no particular order: The pointless tank section, the bland 3D bike levels, the horrible 3D flying level, the cringeworthy 'cinematic' interludes and a final boss that would look more at home in a Sonic the Hedgehog game. Everything that made the first couple of games great ie. open level exploration, great situational weaponry and excellent tunes have been erased in favour of Factor 5 trying to emulate whatever they were playing in their lunch hours. The decline started with T3 which played decently but was obviously an unsuccessful attempt to remake Contra 3 (that Terminator boss) rather than produce a legitimate continuation. There's more Contra 3 ideas show up in ST2 - missile leaping, driving.

Huelsbeck was well into his 'orchestral' phase (probably getting ready to score Rogue Squadron) and I have to say that besides 'wormland' there isn't a single memorable tune in the whole game.

The underwater bit! Ugh. I think that less than 50% of the game is actually platforming.


I agree on everything but not on the harsh judgment on Mega/3. Mega/3 was a solid attempt at making something different than the previous ones, ie an action console game. The fact that It takes a couple of visual cues from a Contra game doesn't make It an attempt to ape Contra more than It apes Thunderforce IV (yes, I'm sure everyone has notice the Rynex scraps in the junkyard section).

So I'd reverse your point of view, rather than "beginning of decline" It was the "last hurrah". Not the old formula but a fully fleshed deserving title in another vein.

It's absolutely true that Snes got the short end of the Stick here, with the first Super trying to cling to the original formula but being just too severed in content and not fully fleshed out to pass the cut. Nowadays I play more Universal Soldier than this when I just want to explore stages. And the second has all the issues that you mentioned, that to be fair to Factor 5 were the "trend" of the moment. After Earthworm Jim or Gunstar Heroes no one was trying to do an action platform without interrupting It with the most random weird gameplay sequences. Alien Soldier and to a degree Contra Hardcorps fit the same mold. Of course there's an abyss in gap with ST2 results which never feel particularly compelling. Nice spider boss though.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:20 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Which of course It's not to say that an abriged collection Is anything excusable. These are a bunch of roms taking hardly 20 megabyte of space all together.

Just the idea of splitting the collection into two volumes Is beyond insanity to me.

Having a "standard" release with less roms inside is... Well It stinks beyond words can describe.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 1785
Location: Colin's Bargain Basement. Everything must go.
Turrican wrote:
(yes, I'm sure everyone has notice the Rynex scraps in the junkyard section).
Not with my extremely limited Amiga palette.

T3/Mega is fine, with arguably the best soundtrack in the series (watery dungeon, holy shit!) - but why abandon the things that really made the series stand out (360 laser, wide open levels) only to copy 'trendy' console games?

Another game that springs to mind is Rocket Knight, where the robot fight and the flying stages break the pace nicely. Actually, the flying and swimming was implemented fine in the first three Turricans. ST2 feels like one of those old movie tie-ins where its a bunch of disconnected minigames stitched together to try and resemble a story. Like Batman the Movie, with the factory then the driving then the flying. -And there's a part where the badguys capture Turrican and he has to break out of jail. But you don't play this part, it's just described in some between-levels text. Even Beast 2 got this part right!!

Oh, and I recently confirmed that the golden Turri trick does not work in Mega.
_________________
The biggest unanswered question is where is the money?

1CCS


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:15 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Sly Cherry Chunks wrote:
why abandon the things that really made the series stand out (360 laser, wide open levels) only to copy 'trendy' console games?


Turrican II was definitive. They probably felt that way (and rightly so). More in the same footsteps would have probably felt tired imitation. Boring to play again, boring to code again. Everyone wanted to stay clear of the "more of the same" approach, or the "Golden Axe II Syndrome"... I support their idea to try and shaken things up a bit. It only worked with Mega/3 though.

Mega/3 has not enough roaming, but the weapon system does justice to the old days, I feel. Spreadshot, Laser work as intended and the white wall bouncing weapon is a passable substitute: you definitely want to play certain sections with the right weapon, as in the previous games.
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:30 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 2599
Location: Wigan, England.
Turrican wrote:
It's absolutely true that Snes got the short end of the Stick here, with the first Super trying to cling to the original formula but being just too severed in content and not fully fleshed out to pass the cut. Nowadays I play more Universal Soldier than this when I just want to explore stages. And the second has all the issues that you mentioned, that to be fair to Factor 5 were the "trend" of the moment. After Earthworm Jim or Gunstar Heroes no one was trying to do an action platform without interrupting It with the most random weird gameplay sequences. Alien Soldier and to a degree Contra Hardcorps fit the same mold. Of course there's an abyss in gap with ST2 results which never feel particularly compelling. Nice spider boss though.


I've warmed considerably to Super T1 these days. Retains all the good bits of the originals, but gets to the point a lot quicker.
I've also just realised that I've never actually played that Universal Soldier game. Even at the time, the look if it was just..... eeewwwww.

This new release is a pretty shitty thing to do though.
_________________
XBL & Switch: mjparker77 / PSN: BellyFullOfHell


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turrican 30th
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:26 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4629
Location: Landorin
Marc wrote:
I've warmed considerably to Super T1 these days. Retains all the good bits of the originals, but gets to the point a lot quicker.


To me it's the opposite. I began in awe since it retained a classic mood of free roaming (mostly in the first world), but nowadays I feel retaining that isn't worth the trade. 'Cause when I need roaming / explore I always go to unmatched OCS Turrican II, or if I'm stuck on console hardware, I opt for the NES one.

But mostly what diminished ST1 in my eyes todays is that, for the developing reasons most of you already know by now, it shares a lot of assets with Mega/3. But here's the point: the stuff it doesn't get from Mega/3 happens to be my favorite in that game: swimming underwater world with creepy octopus boss; junkyard section filled with lots of nice little touches; epic last section with nuts and screws stage and proper last fight.
ST1 ditches all of that, and trades it for Ice stage and Volcano stage, both of which aren't really special. Ice in particular is the dreaded generic location that you'd expect to find unchanged in platformers such as Robocod or Fire & Ice. I like the steam factory world, but am not really thrilled by the mode seven biggie face boss.

I guess this video does a good job to sum my feelings nowadays. Especially in the 15-to-4 bosses encounters comparison.

I'm no fan of the rope, but Mega/3 just flows better with much more content. That, and the freeze beam doesn't really add anything gameplay-wise. That, and the ST1 "beta" stuff marketed recently as "director's cut" only reinforced me in the impression that everything that had beed cut out from the initial commercial release, the game was really better without...
_________________
Image
X - P - B


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group