Do You Consider Doom a shmup?

[Pedro Lambrini]

I'm sure this has been asked before but I had a quick look and couldn't find a suitable thread.

I'm just curious as to what people's thoughts are on the Id classic Doom and its ilk.

I've always thought of Doom as a twin stick shooter but, talking to a friend the other day they scoffed at the idea. I was pretty surprised. I just presumed everyone thought of it as Robotron.

So, what do you guys think? Do you see Doom as a shmup or am I weird?

[BIL]

Mechanically it's basically Asteroids. Would need only the barest of tweaks to play comfortably in IDDT mode (surely I'm not the only one who likes goofing around with that occasionally). All the usual 2D shooting handling techniques (bullet herding, micro-dodging, macro-dodging) are apparent.

That said, I don't consider DOOM etc and topdown shooters the same sorts of games in practice. I won't play one when I'm in the mood for the other. The POV distinction is more stylistic than categorical, but it's still there.

I'll go put some popcorn on in case the usual "what is shump" passions heat up.

[Udderdude]

There almost was an Asteroids clone in the automap, too .. http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Automap_asteroids

[Durandal]

Maaaaaybe?
I'd find it hard-pressed to judge whether something is a shmup solely by how much projectiles it throws at you given games like Gradius and R-Type which Doom could draw more similarities towards given its level design, though the presence of hitscan enemies makes it hard to always think Doom a shmup, and the whole structure of the game. For more shmuppy first-person shooters with a larger emphasis on throwing loads of boolets at you and dodging them, try games like Descent or Marathon 2/Infinity/Phoenix. The upcoming DUSK also seems to adhere to the idea of projectile hell as well.

[qmish]

it's first person shooter and that's it, dammit

though on some maps with many projectiles it does feel like bullethell

[Obscura]

No.

[ZellSF]

I really don't see what purpose having genres serve if we can't mostly agree on them. Categorizing things into genres isn't just a mechanical thing, it's a matter of popular opinion.

Doom isn't a shmup by that standard in case that isn't obvious.

[KAI]

rail shooters are shmups
assault suit games are shmups (imo)
but Doom is not a shmup, it's a labyrinth simulator with guns.

[drauch]

I think the idea that dodging a lot of bullets somehow throws it into a category with shmups is a lot of baloney. Especially in a game like Doom where dodging said bullets isn't that big a deal if you take a couple of hits, and not all hits are created 'equal' (like, just imagine if every Grunt shot dealt the same damage as a Baron).

[Skykid]

No

[Ex_Mosquito]

Definitely not. They don’t play or feel even remotely similar. This reminds me of the Shmups Facebook group classifying Metal Slug as a shmup..... shmups don’t have gravity and a jump button.

[Ruldra]

Reminds me of the old "Is Paperboy a shmup?" thread.

[Udderdude]

I really don't see what purpose having genres serve if we can't mostly agree on them. Categorizing things into genres isn't just a mechanical thing, it's a matter of popular opinion.

Genres are a tool, they're supposed to be useful. If you're endlessly trying to categorize things that don't 100% fit a certian mold, you're just wasting your time.

[Shepardus]

No. It's got similarities to shmups, but I don't think you can call it a shmup without stripping the label of any useful meaning. Sure, you could turn it into a twin-stick shooter by changing the perspective, but that's a pretty fundamental change you'd be making.

[kitten]

no, not even close.

consider how important topography is to some maps, particularly some with crushers/moving platforms/etc. some later maps also have numerous gaps you have to crossover, etc. you wouldn't be able to see switches, either. a lot of the game's challenge also relies in a keen situational awareness that is deliberately designed around throwing you off when you can't see behind you - particularly in enclosed spaces. multiple audio cues tune you into noticing something is out of your view and part of the game is anticipating where they are and reacting based on what you can't see.

and that's just talking about the practical, without even going into how much the game's visuals are designed around the first-person perspective. these are pretty intrinsic to the experience! there's also the manner of non-linear exploration and backtracking playing key roles in a lot of the experience, as well as secrets and resource management - pretty non-shmuppy things. i mean, if doom is a shmup, it kind of begs the question of what action games aren't with some minor tweaks or perspective changes.

[ZellSF]

I really don't see what purpose having genres serve if we can't mostly agree on them. Categorizing things into genres isn't just a mechanical thing, it's a matter of popular opinion.

Genres are a tool, they're supposed to be useful. If you're endlessly trying to categorize things that don't 100% fit a certian mold, you're just wasting your time.

I'm actually a bit confused whether or not you're agreeing with me here or not.

[KennyMan666]

Doom is extremely not a shmup. Doom is the game that codified the genre of first person shooter to the point that for many years the genre was called "Doom clones".

It is also extremely not a twinsticker, given that the defining characteristic of twinstickers is independent movement of character and firing direction, which you can't do in Doom at all.

[Despatche]

I care little for the obsession over the very specific definition of "shmup" that threatened to call things like Guwange and Tempest "borderliners" and throw StarFox away like garbage. Doom is whatever, but situations like these are just wrong.

Genres are 50% gut feeling and 50% random superficial mechanic, and they always cause more harm than good. Most games actually come from a string of inspirations that are sometimes arguably different subgenres or even genres entirely, and it would be way better to point these out than to bleat about some ad-hoc "genres" or whatever. "Mystery" means something very specific in a written narrative. "Puzzle" means many wildly different things in games and has basically no real meaning. This is all why we have subgenres, and this is also all why subgenres get unmanageable very quickly to where people hate seeing them or talking about them, because it's just page after page after page of bickering over irrelevant gut feeling.

So, my answer to "Do you consider Doom a shmup?" is "That's a bad question, I just want to see an FPS or even a TPS that plays kinda like a CAVE game". I mean we even have this for StarFox. It's called the Kingdom Hearts II gummi ship missions, and they're great. I will say that Doom could totally work as something like Out Zone or Fixeight though, especially since there's no jumping in the original Doom design. It'd be amazing, pretty sure!

[Sumez]

I don't care if you call Doom a shmup, it's much closer to the real old-school arcade shmups than it is to what you'd consider a first person shooter today (ie. Call of Duty, Bioshock, ...) especially when you consider the earlier ones which played more with unique gameplay ideas, and possibly wouldn't even be recognized as genuine shmups today (ie. Asteroids, Defender, ...)

So, I get what you're coming from, but purely speaking there's no advantage to calling it that. It's the same as calling games like Contra and Cuphead shmups. There are similarities, but they are fundamentally different. And Doom's first person perspective as well as its "tank controls" is a central part of its gameplay, that completely separates it from the genre.

That said, the "shmup" moniker isn't really useful unless you limit yourself the same way this forum does. Because it's the only way to separate the good old traditional shoot 'em up with its 8 way movements, arcade structure, and a focus on bullet dodging, from all the other things that are trying to assimilate the concept :3 Like, euroshmups.

[Obscura]

So, my answer to "Do you consider Doom a shmup?" is "That's a bad question, I just want to see an FPS or even a TPS that plays kinda like a CAVE game".

Go look up Combat Shock 2. Or, if you mean more in the sense of scoring, Wrack.

[Lord Satori]

Absolutely not. Why is this even a thread?

edit: Wow, my number of posts is the same as the year I joined.

[qmish]

By that logic Doom is dungeon crawler too

[PFG 9000]

Where's that guy who used to have the signature, "No, not like Doom."? (Bulletmagnet, maybe?) That one line explains everything.

[evil_ash_xero]

Absolutely not.

[Specineff]

Where's that guy who used to have the signature, "No, not like Doom."? (Bulletmagnet, maybe?) That one line explains everything.

Close. It's forum member No_Not_LIke_Quake.

[Austin]

DOOM is a First Person Shooter, not a SHMUP. Pretty simple, honestly.

That said, you can play some of the higher level WADs like Sunder or Sunlust and it will feel like a first person bullet hell.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Hi there. No.