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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:11 am 



Joined: 23 Feb 2016
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Turrican wrote:
This thread needs more Technos.

Lots of advice "don't play that, play this instead" but still no one saying things straight: Final Fight with its big sprites came and won the hearts of gamers, but anything Technos had done before / was doing in that moment was actually more substantial / more technical / overall better.

They tended to be more gimmicky but that doesn't equal a better game or even a more substantial one, take DD1 for example, nice useless moveset because anything that isn't the elbow is trash. Combatribes is ridiculously badly balanced on default settings. Renegade was great at its time tough. Final Fight kept controls clean and simple but the challenge high.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:40 am 


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Yeah, Double Dragon was were it all started for me. My local Chinese take away had two cabs side by side - Street Fighter II and Double Dragon. The two genres I still spend most time playing. Due to a lack of knowledge and tools for emulation ,I haven't actually revisited DD since, except on my old Amstrad....might be time to put that right.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:06 am 


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Hagane wrote:
After all these years, the advice still holds strong: don't play Final Fight.

If you want something oldschool, go for Punisher, Captain Commando, or Cadillacs. If you want to play the games that took the genre to new heights, play Alien vs. Predator, Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow over Mystara or Armored Warriors. Final Fight is archaic and doesn't hold up at all.


I still think that Final Fight is better than all of those games, it has certain mechanics that these other games just can’t replicate. The strictness of the gameplay just makes it a better game, no other belt scroller has that level of enemy AI. It’s brutal but in a good way. To say that it doesn’t hold up at all just isn’t accurate, I’d say it’s more seminal than the rest of Capcom’s output by far.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:31 am 



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Even if it didn't hold up it would be the most seminal. In terms of impact and mindshare nothing comes close; I think Hagane is one of very, very few who would say otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:46 am 


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Vludi wrote:
DD1 for example, nice useless moveset because anything that isn't the elbow is trash. Combatribes is ridiculously badly balanced on default settings. Renegade was great at its time tough.


Funny thing about DD is that the NES versions actually play better than the AC versions, even with the odd experience system of DD1 NES.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:33 am 


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Really? That's interesting and the first time I read that.

So many reviews of Double Dragon IV bemoaned the fact Arc Sys Works used the NES versions as a template, over the the Arcade versions. Though, I suppose they could've been solely talking about the graphics. I assume the gameplay is much the same?
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:45 am 


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Stevens wrote:
poptart wrote:
why because its easy and offers no challenge on any difficulty bar mania? they don't even play remotely similar in any way.


I wasn't at all referring to the difficulty, it is just a far better game by every measure. I don't understand the love that it gets.

Since I fired first shots and don't want to derail further - serious question: why do people like it so much?


you think this because you are bad at it though and can't figure it out. Aside from aesthetic stuff it's pacing and mechanics are amazing, you always have to be thinking and readjusting on the spot with the a.i but you can when good be super satisfyingly aggressive, no bmup has replicated how cool it feels to boss a crowd of 15 enemies with one suplex after the next with haggar for example aswell as herding with the back jump etc, it's just instant fun and good shit that no matter how many times you play will keep you on your toes. I used to hate it at first aswell but after forcing myself to learn its quirks and such it became apparent why its so loved.

as for sorr which is also great but the A.I on mania is just retarded, making everybody usain bolt is the daftest way i've ever seen of making something harder, i still prefer sor3 U.S on hard, now that's a good challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 am 



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Leviathan wrote:
Really? That's interesting and the first time I read that.


Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that at all. The arcade DDs are certainly flawed in retrospect, but as with most games of the time, they shat all over their respective home ports. DD1 in particular didn't just disappoint with the lack of 2P action - the fighting was stiff and with little sense of impact.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:43 pm 


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poptart wrote:

you think this because you are bad at it though and can't figure it out. Aside from aesthetic stuff it's pacing and mechanics are amazing, you always have to be thinking and readjusting on the spot with the a.i but you can when good be super satisfyingly aggressive, no bmup has replicated how cool it feels to boss a crowd of 15 enemies with one suplex after the next with haggar for example aswell as herding with the back jump etc, it's just instant fun and good shit that no matter how many times you play will keep you on your toes. I used to hate it at first aswell but after forcing myself to learn its quirks and such it became apparent why its so loved.

as for sorr which is also great but the A.I on mania is just retarded, making everybody usain bolt is the daftest way i've ever seen of making something harder, i still prefer sor3 U.S on hard, now that's a good challenge.


I haven't spent significant time with FF since I was in middle school. I have it on the Capcom Classic Collection though for PS 2 - is that one worth playing or should I play it in Mame?
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:39 pm 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
Leviathan wrote:
Really? That's interesting and the first time I read that.


Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that at all. The arcade DDs are certainly flawed in retrospect, but as with most games of the time, they shat all over their respective home ports. DD1 in particular didn't just disappoint with the lack of 2P action - the fighting was stiff and with little sense of impact.


I'm not saying this out of nowhere. BIL posted about DD1 and DD2 in the side scrolling thread and has very good reasons for liking the games better than the AC versions. For one, the NES DD games don't suffer from excessive slowdown and the weapons in DD1 aren't useless like they are in the AC version.


Leviathan wrote:
So many reviews of Double Dragon IV bemoaned the fact Arc Sys Works used the NES versions as a template, over the the Arcade versions. Though, I suppose they could've been solely talking about the graphics. I assume the gameplay is much the same?


The problem is that DDIV feels like a fangame, not that the gameplay is the same as the NES games (which isn't). The game has screen tearing, even on PS4 and some of the cutscenes were almost taken directly from Double Dragon Advance. From some reason, the knee from DD2 is now much easier to pull off. It's not so much that it's an outright bad game, more that it's lacking charm.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:24 pm 



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Stevens wrote:
I have it on the Capcom Classic Collection though for PS 2 - is that one worth playing or should I play it in Mame?

it's pretty good, replicates the pcb's slowdowns/flicker more accurately than mame.
edit: or maybe not? I swear I saw the slowdowns on the ps2 version, oh well it's still as good as mame
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:34 pm 


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Vludi wrote:
Stevens wrote:
I have it on the Capcom Classic Collection though for PS 2 - is that one worth playing or should I play it in Mame?

it's pretty good, replicates the pcb's slowdowns/flicker more accurately than mame.


Thanks Vludi:D
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:55 pm 


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BrianC wrote:
I'm not saying this out of nowhere. BIL posted about DD1 and DD2 in the side scrolling thread and has very good reasons for liking the games better than the AC versions. For one, the NES DD games don't suffer from excessive slowdown and the weapons in DD1 aren't useless like they are in the AC version.


I don't think I've ever said I prefer the FC interpretations to the arcade games - I've not played the latter nearly enough to comment on them in depth, anyway. :wink: I do find ex-Technos love letter Double Dragon Advance a far more appealing game than the original, though. Foot of this post for elaboration. Just the survival mode is a blast. Smoothly expanded take on the trademark gritty, body-destroying attrititive violence.

As to the FC interpretations, yes, per the post you linked - DD1 gets a bad rap as some kind of total non-entity. It's flawed as all hell, but there's a consistent and surprisingly finessed little system in there. DD2 (FAMICOM, NOT NES) I would call excellent within its limitations. FC Hard is perhaps the most viciously treacherous two enemies onscreen max ever seen.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:57 pm 



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I agree that 8-bit DD2 was vastly improved over DD1. As for DD1, you can check as many boxes as you want for gameplay systems/additions, etc. - to me none of it makes up for the fighting itself being totally unsatisfying. Stiff, simple animation, weak SFX, no sense of impact in striking blows - these are the very basics needed and they aren't there.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:44 pm 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
no sense of impact in striking blows


Heh, if that is a factor for your, try RDD on SFC and it'll be very hard to get back to... any other brawler on the system, pretty much.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:12 am 


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I like DD1 NES

The enemy AI is pretty fun to square off against and I like how mobile/quick your character moves about.

I had discarded it but I replayed it recently and had a good time. Of course DD2 NES is better but DD1 is no slouch

Then again I'm no expert on this stuff and am not the best "objective" reviewer, but just throwing my opinion out there
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:22 am 


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Sorry, jumped the gun a bit. I don't dislike the AC version, but I like some aspects of the NES version of DD better. I'm not so sure about the elbow being the only useful move either, though it is a bit overpowered. At least the AC version isn't like SMS where some moves seem to be impossible to pull off consistently and the hit detection makes others less reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:35 am 



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Turrican wrote:
Heh, if that is a factor for your, try RDD on SFC and it'll be very hard to get back to... any other brawler on the system, pretty much.


Yes, absolutely loved that one from Day One.. also, as BIL implied DD Advance is king of them all.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:04 am 


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Leviathan wrote:
So many reviews of Double Dragon IV bemoaned the fact Arc Sys Works used the NES versions as a template, over the the Arcade versions. Though, I suppose they could've been solely talking about the graphics. I assume the gameplay is much the same?


I wanted to like DD4, but the whole thing feels like it was trying to mimic DD2FC without understanding what made it work. Part of it has to do with the fact that DD2FC's combat system was designed around fighting one or two enemies at the same time, but DD4 just fills in the screen with tons of bad guys with no thoughts of balance. They don't give you any options to deal with multiple enemies.

It also doesn't help that the graphics feel way more amateurish compared to the NES games, but that probably has to do with the fact that the same person did all the sprites and backgrounds, whereas previous DD games had multiple artists working at one.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:14 am 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
Yes, absolutely loved that one from Day One.. also, as BIL implied DD Advance is king of them all.


1P historical revisionism (who needs friends?), see also Mercs... :wink: But I refuse to Renegade-ize a series that has "Double" in its name. The schism with everything that was before is in the "Double". This goes for DD1 FC, and almost for DDA... Almost. The game's so good that I had to get two cartridges of it... :|
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:26 am 


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I went back to my PCB of Final Fight a few months back to take a stab at a 1CC on default settings. It's absolutely brutal, but like what's been said in prior posts, it is completely manageable when you know the right strategies. I still have a long way to go (I think I made it as far as Abigail on one credit, at least once) and I'm still debating on whether I am going to stick with Cody or switch over to Haggar. Mike's backwards belly flop attack seems too good to ignore, as you can use it to push enemies to the opposite side of the screen when using it in the reverse direction. The invincibility frames on his throw is extremely useful as well. I'm just struggling to get the hang of his slow speed.

BrianC wrote:
Funny thing about DD is that the NES versions actually play better than the AC versions, even with the odd experience system of DD1 NES.


I enjoy the arcade versions quite a bit, but I do enjoy the NES ones more. Part 2 in particular is definitely more technically sound than the first game, but I will admit I find myself revisiting the original game more because of its brisker pace overall. Its fight scenarios generally give you more room to move, whereas Part 2 features a ton of tight environments and nasty trap-oriented platform design (to nonsensical levels) later on in the game. Then again, right as I complain about DD2's platforming, I remember the bricks in the original game.. Ugh. I just can't win here. :lol:

BIL wrote:
As to the FC interpretations, yes, per the post you linked - DD1 gets a bad rap as some kind of total non-entity. It's flawed as all hell, but there's a consistent and surprisingly finessed little system in there. DD2 (FAMICOM, NOT NES) I would call excellent within its limitations. FC Hard is perhaps the most viciously treacherous two enemies onscreen max ever seen.


Thanks for bringing this up, I had no idea the Japanese version's highest difficulty is a step above the USA version. I finally got around to beating that on "Supreme Master" this year and so I wouldn't mind having a go with the Japanese one. Is the FC version of the first game more difficult than the one released in North America as well?

bigbadboaz wrote:
As for DD1, you can check as many boxes as you want for gameplay systems/additions, etc. - to me none of it makes up for the fighting itself being totally unsatisfying. Stiff, simple animation, weak SFX, no sense of impact in striking blows - these are the very basics needed and they aren't there.


Hm, I will admit I never got this feeling of a "lack of impact". For me that was the Master System version, where every sound effect is accompanied by a pathetic "thud" and enemies pretty much never get stunned on impact. I agree that the sound effects in the original NES game aren't as in your face as they are in Double Dragon 2 (particularly comparing them to the sounds DD2 makes when making contact with the hurricane kick or knee), but they are suitable enough and enemies do have hit stun and keel over for a bit, especially when kicking. That hit stun is a big part of the "feel" to me, so the NES original was always fine in my book.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:09 am 


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I couldn't tell much difference with the JP DD1, but DD3 is actually easier than its US counterpart. The story of the JP version of DD3 is identical to the arcade story and there is a fan translation.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:19 pm 



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BIL wrote:
Hm, I will admit I never got this feeling of a "lack of impact". For me that was the Master System version, where every sound effect is accompanied by a pathetic "thud" and enemies pretty much never get stunned on impact. I agree that the sound effects in the original NES game aren't as in your face as they are in Double Dragon 2


I'm very sensitive to sound as it impacts the overall experience, so this makes sense. I can't compare to the SMS as I have very little experience with any of its library. But I do recall hearing that the game was also a disappointment despite retaining (very loudly) the all-important 2P play.


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:04 am 


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I've never played SMS DD1 but I will concur nothing else on FC (outside of other Technos games) approaches the mastery of DDII's pain SFX. As colourful and stubby yet dry-heavingly violent as the accompanying visual aesthetic. Expert balance! Dig the chopper engine roaring louder as the insatiable door of death shoots open in Mission 3. Image

Austin wrote:
Then again, right as I complain about DD2's platforming, I remember the bricks in the original game.. Ugh. I just can't win here. :lol:


Dead EZ DD1 FC bricks. Simple but not very obvious - I got as far as noticing each section shut down once passed, but was still finding it a total lottery otherwise. Some guys on Youtube made a NASA engineering-style breakdown of WTF exactly is going on, but you don't need to worry about any of it. Normally I'd avoid looking up a solution so readily, but I doubt I'd have figured it out in the couple hours the seller was very kindly holding his copy for me. :wink: If it was truly random I'd have had to pass, would ruin an otherwise very enjoyable console 1LC.

Quote:
Is the FC version of the first game more difficult than the one released in North America as well?


AFAIK no - pretty sure it's just the title screen that differs. Having said that, my only source is TCRF, who last I checked blanked on the DDIIFC Hard boost. Both the crash (Mission 3) and game reset (Mission 4) bugs are in US, I can confirm that much. :mrgreen: (they're at the foot of the post Brian linked, if of any interest)
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:34 am 


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BIL wrote:
Dead EZ DD1 FC bricks. Simple but not very obvious - I got as far as noticing each section shut down once passed, but was still finding it a total lottery otherwise. Some guys on Youtube made a NASA engineering-style breakdown of WTF exactly is going on, but you don't need to worry about any of it. Normally I'd avoid looking up a solution so readily, but I doubt I'd have figured it out in the couple hours the seller was very kindly holding his copy for me. :wink: If it was truly random I'd have had to pass, would ruin an otherwise very enjoyable console 1LC.


Interesting, I'll have to give your tactic a try. This part is always the bane of my existence when it comes to finishing the game. Whether I actually manage to do so fully depends on how that part goes, anything before or after I am good with.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:19 am 


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BIL wrote:
Dead EZ DD1 FC bricks. Simple but not very obvious - I got as far as noticing each section shut down once passed, but was still finding it a total lottery otherwise. Some guys on Youtube made a NASA engineering-style breakdown of WTF exactly is going on, but you don't need to worry about any of it. Normally I'd avoid looking up a solution so readily, but I doubt I'd have figured it out in the couple hours the seller was very kindly holding his copy for me. :wink: If it was truly random I'd have had to pass, would ruin an otherwise very enjoyable console 1LC.


Off topic, but I ended up trying your strategy demonstrated in that thread you linked to. The blocks are still totally random as far as I can tell (logged a save state on my flash cart and tried it repeatedly), but using your technique I was able to get through them a hell of a lot more consistently. I ended up doing a few normal runs in the days after and had some pretty good success, even getting a 1LC on my last attempt (definitely don't think that's ever happened to me before on this game, thanks to the bricks).
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:51 am 


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Pointman wrote:
Hagane wrote:
After all these years, the advice still holds strong: don't play Final Fight.

If you want something oldschool, go for Punisher, Captain Commando, or Cadillacs. If you want to play the games that took the genre to new heights, play Alien vs. Predator, Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow over Mystara or Armored Warriors. Final Fight is archaic and doesn't hold up at all.


I still think that Final Fight is better than all of those games, it has certain mechanics that these other games just can’t replicate. The strictness of the gameplay just makes it a better game, no other belt scroller has that level of enemy AI. It’s brutal but in a good way. To say that it doesn’t hold up at all just isn’t accurate, I’d say it’s more seminal than the rest of Capcom’s output by far.


Nothing is better than AVP.

AVP is probably top 5 action games ever made. In any genre.

It's that good.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:56 am 


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So being something of a purist (within the constraints of the hardware available to me), it seems I'd set the sound on X360 Final Fight to classic, and promptly forgotten that a remixed version exists.

Wow... that's remixed music done properly. It makes takes the already brutal bass thump of the originals and makes it even more skull-thumpingly heavy, and manages to make the ST2 track (a strong entry in my 10 worst game tunes ever list, previously) almost listenable. Much as the content of the Capcom Belt Collection on Switch is awesome, it's pretty frustrating that they're so far behind this port in terms of presentation.
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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:22 pm 



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Interesting. I was disappointed with that remix as I was hoping it would live up to the old Sega CD tunes (though the remix house responsible had a great reputation). Might have to go back and give it another listen on its own merits. I'm curious, have you ever heard the SCD tunes?


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 Post subject: Re: Final Fight Advice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:45 pm 


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I'd probably take Final Fight over AvP too. Mobility and more attack options are great, but nothing is more important than the balance between the player and the enemies. In games like AvP you have extremely powerful characters who are free to do anything - ultimately you can solve most encounters with the same basic approach. A simpler game like Final Fight ends up being deeper because you really have to understand where/when/how to use all of your tools in each situation, pay more attention to positioning, etc.

Anyway I cleared FF a few days ago (with Cody). Vludi gave me some good advice: if you get knocked down and need to use a desperation attack on wakeup, do it by holding jump + mashing attack. It's better than trying to press attack+jump as soon as you can. Other than that, the most difficult sections mainly come down to luck based on how the enemies behave tbh. Almost everything can be stabilized with the right strategy though, just hope you don't get screwed on the few random parts (mainly from El Gados).
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