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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:42 pm 


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BIL wrote:
The cycle is a tragically familiar one: your faithful doctor fires up a JAPANESE TV GAME and says "Hey that's pretty good!" then hops on the Google to see what is up! And THEN heresy ensues - liable to cause innocent noobs a really bad day! These intrepid lorry merchants managed to get just about everything wrong about Ninja Spirit's weapon set, and that is some dangerous misinformation!


lmao, yep, have the same thing happen frequently. more often i'll be telling a non-gaming friend about what i'm playing, they'll punch it into google, and then immediately quote the hg101 article at me about how "it's apparently super hard." this has happened at bare minimum a half dozen times specifically with hg101, most recently with tonma.

Image

ridiculously difficult!!! especially when you play it for a total of twenty minutes on an emulator for a save-stated clear once fucking ever. also lol at ninja spirit being brought up there, too
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:02 pm 


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In regards to Ninja Spirit, is the PCE version definitively better than the US release? It's one of those games that really went full derp and the US version is now cheaper. Not nearly the case when I first started buying PCE back in 2013 or so.

kitten wrote:
BIL wrote:
The cycle is a tragically familiar one: your faithful doctor fires up a JAPANESE TV GAME and says "Hey that's pretty good!" then hops on the Google to see what is up! And THEN heresy ensues - liable to cause innocent noobs a really bad day! These intrepid lorry merchants managed to get just about everything wrong about Ninja Spirit's weapon set, and that is some dangerous misinformation!


lmao, yep, have the same thing happen frequently. more often i'll be telling a non-gaming friend about what i'm playing, they'll punch it into google, and then immediately quote the hg101 article at me about how "it's apparently super hard." this has happened at bare minimum a half dozen times specifically with hg101, most recently with tonma.

Image

ridiculously difficult!!! especially when you play it for a total of twenty minutes on an emulator for a save-stated clear once fucking ever. also lol at ninja spirit being brought up there, too


I was just talking with a buddy about this not too long ago. Almost every older game is hard when you only play for FIVE MINUTES. Everything is so damn easy now and people still shriek about accessibility.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:04 pm 


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kitten wrote:
this has happened at bare minimum a half dozen times specifically with hg101, most recently with tonma.


I've long since started to take the consistency for granted - over the last several years, it really has been a case of "like action game, check google, reap HGV101 gold" - but it's always a good laugh. :mrgreen:

Steamflogger Boss wrote:
In regards to Ninja Spirit, is the PCE version definitively better than the US release? It's one of those games that really went full derp and the US version is now cheaper. Not nearly the case when I first started buying PCE back in 2013 or so.


Off the top of my head, according to the noted Mr. ING, the TG-16 version is so unaltered they didn't even translate the inter-stage titles. Never checked myself, though. :smile:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:13 pm 


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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
In regards to Ninja Spirit, is the PCE version definitively better than the US release? It's one of those games that really went full derp and the US version is now cheaper. Not nearly the case when I first started buying PCE back in 2013 or so.


i think they're identical, but now that you've said that, i'm not 100% sure. i think BIL is right, here, though - iirc the difficulties are still "arcade" and "pc engine," too.

Quote:
accessibility.

agghhh, this word! Image the people you're talking about who use that word drive me nuts. i got mad and typed a bunch but it's veering off-topic so i'm going to spoiler text it.

Spoiler: show
people who weaponize that word don't seem to understand that a game's challenge most often is its language, is its 'content.' they say people who aren't skilled won't get to experience all of a game's content, but they do that thinking the "content" is art & music assets and the state of winning or accomplishing. if you neuter a game's challenge, you neuter it as art, you neuter it at the one way it expresses itself that differs it from other mediums. you don't cancel sports because of the disabled, you don't cancel art exhibitions because of the blind, you don't cancel concerts because of the deaf.

similarly, you don't cancel hard games because someone can't play them well. on top of that, more often than not, they could conceivably play it well, they just don't want to - this isn't like any of those previous things because each of those people don't have any agency in the matter. someone whining about a hard game they don't get to see the latter half of, on the other hand, does have a choice to improve or not. every time i see some pissant complain about not having enough time to die over & over in contra, a 20 minute game, they'll then have like 1,000 hours in skyrim or minecraft or whatever.

i've said it on here before, but a hard game is not comparable to a library without a wheelchair ramp - a genuine accessibility issue. deliberately changing your design goals so more people can experience your game should only be important when your game doesn't communicate with challenge to begin with. games criticism should only bring up matters of accessibility when a game is ludicrously time-demanding (e.g. an mmo) or adversely affects people with disabilities in a way that is reasonable to circumvent (e.g. heads-up displays with color-blind friendly options, etc.).

the thing is, the crowd that brings that shit up gets up in arms about cultural appropriation constantly - if someone from india said that americans ruin a traditional curry by not adding the correct spices and keeping a proper heat value, they'd retweet it in a heartbeat. why, then, do they not understand a game's own 'spiciness' is integral to the substance of what it is? in this example, that curry is respected as a work of art - as it should be, honestly - but should a game not receive the same treatment? understanding of art is not a basic right, not being able to experience it as intended is not being robbed of something. let people create and enjoy whatever they want so long as it's not impeding on others.


- - - - - - - - -

meanwhile i'm on very little sleep and have been up too long and am crawling through the tenth loop of this game of super c by taking breaks. if score counter break is at 9,999,999, i wouldn't theoretically hit that til around loop 50-something, and then i'll have to lose the 99 lives i'll more than likely have at that point before i'd actually have the game beat me. at only about 2 deaths per loop, i'd probably hit loop 99 and break the loop counter before then.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm 


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Thanks for confirming that for me. I'll just grab the US version then. Because if I'm anything, it's a cheap bastard. My NINJAAAA ACSHUN clears are growing, and I look forward to adding this one to my list. Shadow of the Ninja did not disappoint.

kitten wrote:

Quote:
accessibility.

agghhh, this word! Image the people you're talking about who use that word drive me nuts. i got mad and typed a bunch but it's veering off-topic so i'm going to spoiler text it.

Spoiler: show
people who weaponize that word don't seem to understand that a game's challenge most often is its language, is its 'content.' they say people who aren't skilled won't get to experience all of a game's content, but they do that thinking the "content" is art & music assets and the state of winning or accomplishing. if you neuter a game's challenge, you neuter it as art, you neuter it at the one way it expresses itself that differs it from other mediums. you don't cancel sports because of the disabled, you don't cancel art exhibitions because of the blind, you don't cancel concerts because of the deaf.

similarly, you don't cancel hard games because someone can't play them well. on top of that, more often than not, they could conceivably play it well, they just don't want to - this isn't like any of those previous things because each of those people don't have any agency in the matter. someone whining about a hard game they don't get to see the latter half of, on the other hand, does have a choice to improve or not. every time i see some pissant complain about not having enough time to die over & over in contra, a 20 minute game, they'll then have like 1,000 hours in skyrim or minecraft or whatever.

i've said it on here before, but a hard game is not comparable to a library without a wheelchair ramp - a genuine accessibility issue. deliberately changing your design goals so more people can experience your game should only be important when your game doesn't communicate with challenge to begin with. games criticism should only bring up matters of accessibility when a game is ludicrously time-demanding (e.g. an mmo) or adversely affects people with disabilities in a way that is reasonable to circumvent (e.g. heads-up displays with color-blind friendly options, etc.).

the thing is, the crowd that brings that shit up gets up in arms about cultural appropriation constantly - if someone from india said that americans ruin a traditional curry by not adding the correct spices and keeping a proper heat value, they'd retweet it in a heartbeat. why, then, do they not understand a game's own 'spiciness' is integral to the substance of what it is? in this example, that curry is respected as a work of art - as it should be, honestly - but should a game not receive the same treatment? understanding of art is not a basic right, not being able to experience it as intended is not being robbed of something. let people create and enjoy whatever they want so long as it's not impeding on others.


- - - - - - - - -

meanwhile i'm on very little sleep and have been up too long and am crawling through the tenth loop of this game of super c by taking breaks. if score counter break is at 9,999,999, i wouldn't theoretically hit that til around loop 50-something, and then i'll have to lose the 99 lives i'll more than likely have at that point before i'd actually have the game beat me. at only about 2 deaths per loop, i'd probably hit loop 99 and break the loop counter before then.


I should have put a trigger warning and put that word in spoiler tags my bad.

Also I should clear up, my friend is a big time NES head and a hard case. Sometimes when he gets home from work he just randomly clears NG3. So we joke about shit a lot. We are probably fairly close in skill level, he thinks I might be slightly better but I disagree. He's definitely better at NG and NG3 because he plays those a ton.

Anyway you bring up a lot of good points but it doesn't matter. ALL GAMES MADE NOW HAVE TO BE ABLE TO BE CLEARED BY A HIGHLY AUTISTIC* CHIMPANZEE. However this comment in particular...

"every time i see some pissant complain about not having enough time to die over & over in contra, a 20 minute game, they'll then have like 1,000 hours in skyrim or minecraft or whatever. "

Made me Image because it's so incredibly on point it hurts.

*
Spoiler: show
I use this word completely free of conscious and if anyone wants reasons why take it up with me in pms but I don't think it's hard to figure out.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:51 pm 


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^ yeah, i'm kinda just yelling into the wind, at this point :[ heck i really wish people would back the fuck off and just let people make tough games (or weird games or gross games or porn games) instead of creating this weird cultural purity drive to ethically refuse games on the dumbest grounds.

anyway,

Image

didn't die once on loop 10. shutting it off because i'm pretty sure it 1. wasn't getting harder and 2. there was absolutely no chance of me dying more than i was gaining lives. yeesh, 66 lives!!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:00 pm 


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I'm right there with you. I have no interest in porn games but they should be allowed to exist for people that want them. Same with any kind of game. Let it exist.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:01 pm 


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Double Dragon 1 FC Day 3 Report

So the game clicked for me last night, and I've finally gotten consistent with the point blanking strats, avoiding the stage 4 wall etc. Gad damn this game is good when you know how to play it. There is a small trick to the spacing for point blanking. Whether it's Chin, Abobo, or Jimmy Lee, you want to be standing right on top of their feet. My problem before was I was standing on their abdomens.

Last night's practice yielded me a 1lc of stage 4 (played via a state). And a real start to finish run got me just a few hits shy of killing Jimmy Lee. During the run I ran into a weird glitch that cost me a life during the second falling spikes section of the cave. I jumped down to fight Hulkobo and fell straight through the floor. The screen went black and I thought it had crashed, but. Then it started back up with me standing in front of Abobo sans one life. Following that I managed to overjump a platform in stage 4, which left me with only a single life for the entire final brawl. I think I put up a valiant effort, but that bastard Jimmy Lee sent me to the ER in the end.

I imagine I will finalize the 1cc tonight.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:09 am 


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kitten wrote:
agghhh, this word! Image the people you're talking about who use that word drive me nuts. i got mad and typed a bunch but it's veering off-topic so i'm going to spoiler text it.

Spoiler: show
people who weaponize that word don't seem to understand that a game's challenge most often is its language, is its 'content.' they say people who aren't skilled won't get to experience all of a game's content, but they do that thinking the "content" is art & music assets and the state of winning or accomplishing. if you neuter a game's challenge, you neuter it as art, you neuter it at the one way it expresses itself that differs it from other mediums. you don't cancel sports because of the disabled, you don't cancel art exhibitions because of the blind, you don't cancel concerts because of the deaf.

similarly, you don't cancel hard games because someone can't play them well. on top of that, more often than not, they could conceivably play it well, they just don't want to - this isn't like any of those previous things because each of those people don't have any agency in the matter. someone whining about a hard game they don't get to see the latter half of, on the other hand, does have a choice to improve or not. every time i see some pissant complain about not having enough time to die over & over in contra, a 20 minute game, they'll then have like 1,000 hours in skyrim or minecraft or whatever.

i've said it on here before, but a hard game is not comparable to a library without a wheelchair ramp - a genuine accessibility issue. deliberately changing your design goals so more people can experience your game should only be important when your game doesn't communicate with challenge to begin with. games criticism should only bring up matters of accessibility when a game is ludicrously time-demanding (e.g. an mmo) or adversely affects people with disabilities in a way that is reasonable to circumvent (e.g. heads-up displays with color-blind friendly options, etc.).

the thing is, the crowd that brings that shit up gets up in arms about cultural appropriation constantly - if someone from india said that americans ruin a traditional curry by not adding the correct spices and keeping a proper heat value, they'd retweet it in a heartbeat. why, then, do they not understand a game's own 'spiciness' is integral to the substance of what it is? in this example, that curry is respected as a work of art - as it should be, honestly - but should a game not receive the same treatment? understanding of art is not a basic right, not being able to experience it as intended is not being robbed of something. let people create and enjoy whatever they want so long as it's not impeding on others.


I honestly don't think I've ever seen it put any better. Bravo!

We need to get this around somehow. Any place that will listen. You are preaching to the choir here, after all. "a game's challenge most often is its language" - you only ever, ever see it phrased that way in the context of padding.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:26 am 


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Whenever I think of HG101 and "ridiculously difficult", the immortal words of Inigo Montoya come to mind. "You keep saying that word, I don't think it means what you think it means"


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:31 am 


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BrianC wrote:
Whenever I think of HG101 and "ridiculously difficult", the immortal words of Inigo Montoya come to mind. "You keep saying that word, I don't think it means what you think it means"


Yeah but it makes them sound cool and normal or something like that.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:44 am 


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Got it done! 8)

Did my winning run on the original FC cart for authenticity. Almost got the 1lc before a hilarious blunder in the final brawl. Went to throw that knife at Chin and he took a quick step up to dodge it, the knife bounced off the wall at hit me right in the face. It was a beautifully Technos moment, and it hurt me enough I had to use a life on Jimmy Lee. I really loved this game, I think I owe a lot of that to what I learned from your guide/notes BIL so thanks for that. It's a really brilliant brawler. Guess I'm off to DD2, or maybe a quick detour for the DD1 GB clear?
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:12 am 


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kitten wrote:
meanwhile i'm on very little sleep and have been up too long and am crawling through the tenth loop of this game of super c by taking breaks. if score counter break is at 9,999,999, i wouldn't theoretically hit that til around loop 50-something, and then i'll have to lose the 99 lives i'll more than likely have at that point before i'd actually have the game beat me. at only about 2 deaths per loop, i'd probably hit loop 99 and break the loop counter before then.


From a bit of cheat engine testing, it appears that the counter can go as high as 9999990. Earning enough points to go past 9999990 causes your score to loop back to zero.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:06 pm 


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All the talk on here prompted me to try out NES DD on the Switch. I mean, it's not bad, and it's definitely light-years beyond anything available on 8-bit micro's at the time (and even 16-bit for that matter) but.... I dunno, it all just feels a bit barren to me and I'm not sure why someone would opt for this over the arcade versions, the half-finished SNES version, and certainly DDA for GBA. I do wonder how much nostalgia plays into these things, even with stuff I still enjoy all these years later.

I do remember liking the look of the MD port back in the day, don't think I ever got around to playing it as far as I can remember though.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:09 pm 


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ACSeraph wrote:
I really loved this game, I think I owe a lot of that to what I learned from your guide/notes BIL so thanks for that.


My pleasure. ^__^

Marc wrote:
I'm not sure why someone would opt for this over the arcade versions, the half-finished SNES version, and certainly DDA for GBA. I do wonder how much nostalgia plays into these things, even with stuff I still enjoy all these years later.


I'm a Return Apologist (respect the choreography! if only the game ran as smoothly as those subtly, unwittingly sped-up GIFs...), and advocate of DDA as the ultimate Technos brawler, but I have plenty of time for DD1FC. It's rough as hell, but there's some real precision action in there, and it nails the signature Technos treachery in an adventurous yet tight credit. Glitches aside, an exemplar of my treasured "FC interpretation of late-80s arcade titan" feel. Image

It even has some distinct advantages over its brilliant sequel - enemies can (AND WILL Image) interfere in your grapples/ground pounds. It actually has said ground pounds! Weapons are mortally dangerous, and although enemies actively retrieve them (unlike in Return :sad:), they're smart enough to counter-attack if you exploit this. And you can fight its giants two at a time, something DD2 inexplicably lacks (I suspect 2P mode might've lagged the performance, and making giant duos 1P-only would've seemed awkward).

I don't do nostalgia at all - teh romz and Youtube more than suffice there - so despite this being a key title of my childhood, I passed up getting a copy for years on account of clueless comments like those at the head of this post. Lesson learned: trust no-one. Image Paid out the ass for my CIB copy once I'd finally realised the internet was, as per usual, wrong. >_<
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:47 pm 


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Marc wrote:
All the talk on here prompted me to try out NES DD on the Switch. I mean, it's not bad, and it's definitely light-years beyond anything available on 8-bit micro's at the time (and even 16-bit for that matter) but.... I dunno, it all just feels a bit barren to me and I'm not sure why someone would opt for this over the arcade versions, the half-finished SNES version, and certainly DDA for GBA. I do wonder how much nostalgia plays into these things, even with stuff I still enjoy all these years later.


I'm in the camp who believes that DD1FC holds up a lot better than DD1AC (and I used to believe the contrary, mostly due to arcade purists drilling the idea to my head). The only thing the arcade version has over the Famicom one are better graphics (naturally due to the hardware) and the 2-player co-op. The elbow punch in the arcade version really breaks the challenge (you can forbid yourself from using it and it becomes much more challenging, but it's still easy to fall into the trap of using it) and there's too much slowdown when there's more than two enemies on-screen (the FC version doesn't have this problem since the enemy count is capped to two bad guys).

On top of that, I think the levels on the Famicom version are just much exciting. There's nothing quite like the cavern area on the arcade game and the action feels a lot more faster-paced.

Quote:
I do remember liking the look of the MD port back in the day, don't think I ever got around to playing it as far as I can remember though.


I only played the Genesis port of DD1 emulated. For some reason the punch button doesn't respond if you tap the button too quickly. Not sure if this was an issue in the actual cartridge or an emulation problem, since I never had this happened in any other Genesis game. Also, the Jeffs (Lee brother palette-swaps) are overpowered in the Genesis version, since they can do the hair-grab and knee attack with too much ease. Otherwise It looks nice, but I don't like the new background art and Marian's design is ugly compared to her arcade self. The music is a mess.

BIL wrote:
I don't do nostalgia at all - teh romz and Youtube more than suffice there - so despite this being a key title of my childhood, I passed up getting a copy for years on account of clueless comments like those at the head of this post. Lesson learned: trust no-one. Image Paid out the ass for my CIB copy once I'd finally realised the internet was, as per usual, wrong. >_<


I never had any particular issue with the Dojo Master's reviews of the NES games back when I used to be a contributor to his site, but I was never a big fan of the "graphics/sound/gameplay" guideline he forced on all the reviews he posted on the site. I always thought they were too limited and didn't allow to focus discuss other aspects other aspects of the games that didn't fall into such narrow guidelines (his reviews of the NES games never really touched upon any of the technical aspects of why they were different). I did had issues with him over a review of the Genesis port of DD3 from another contributor. I'm not the biggest fan of DD3AC, but calling the Genesis port perfect or better than the arcade is a disservice to the original. The thing didn't even kept the running animation for your player characters.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:28 pm 


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Vanguard wrote:
From a bit of cheat engine testing, it appears that the counter can go as high as 9999990. Earning enough points to go past 9999990 causes your score to loop back to zero.


interesting! any idea if there's any sort of difficulty increase after loop 10? i seriously wasn't noticing anything at all for several loops and stopped after nomissing that loop. if you never stop getting extends then there's no point to looping, you have to be really bad at the game to be dying more than once-per-stage on average with how little it changes.

any idea if you can exceed 99 lives? it would be hilarious if you reset to 1.

- - - - - - - - - -

also!

just took fc contra to the last level of loop 15!! i don't know if this has been mentioned on here before - and i do not think it has - but higher loops of fc contra are noticeably more difficult than the nes version. i had no idea the zako spawning got that fucking insane (despite remembering one gif by BIL in jungle stage where i thought "hey this seems a little weird"), there must be a way tighter restriction on the maximum the nes version will spawn because it's downright tepid in comparison. seems to hard limit at 4, i think? maybe 3 in some areas? i'm pretty sure you can get 7 or 8 on the famicom version and it really does make a difference in making certain segments much more threatening. if you don't aggressively jump ledges there's parts in both hangar and energy zone that will wind up completely ending you.

i would say that this really definitively makes the famicom version the go-to if you're looking for more than a casual single play - that's really important information! i had a death or two in stage one on a couple loops that felt only extremely narrowly avoidable thanks to zako hell parade shenanigans. i had to take 2 decent breaks to get to loop 15 - really wears down on you. i probably also added several minutes onto the play just because of how long i take in stage 8 on later loops. sometimes i don't enter with a spreadgun and spend ten years fighting the shrimp dispenser ,and i always like to kill every one of the purple mouths, which is really unnecessary and tedious and i should probably just stop doing it for the good middle portion of them on future runs - skipping those doesn't really increase danger and saves a lot of energy.

i might have hit a nomiss in a post-10 loop, but i can't remember - i'm fairly certain i have a couple with only one death that was relatively preventable. i start off nomissing loops 1-3, have a bad loop 4, and then i think my most catastrophic loop was 11 with something like 8 deaths. i was devising some strategies a bit impromptu as i was playing and didn't discover good ways to handle certain things until later. i'll probably talk about these choke points and maybe make some gifs when the footage is done encoding & uploading. i feel i could probably push this a lot further on a better day, but it does become genuinely exhausting. makes me wish the game had a way to skip to later loops right off the bat.

- - - - - - - - -

in the meantime, i uploaded nomiss runs of the first loops of both contra and super c:

contra fc loop 1 nomiss - i don't think there's anything really amazing in this run but i do play the snow field by firing along to the music in a cute way. i play well, but the default loop of contra isn't a super exciting watch because it's not too hard to get down. still a delight to play, though.

super c nes loop 1 nomiss - i go really expediently through some early areas and show off a couple of slightly goofy things. did you know you can bait those weird eggs into the final boss room? because you can. does it matter? no.

both videos include some brief reviews of both games that might make this post worth adding to the thread index.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:55 pm 


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Marc wrote:
All the talk on here prompted me to try out NES DD on the Switch. I mean, it's not bad, and it's definitely light-years beyond anything available on 8-bit micro's at the time (and even 16-bit for that matter) but.... I dunno, it all just feels a bit barren to me and I'm not sure why someone would opt for this over the arcade versions, the half-finished SNES version, and certainly DDA for GBA. I do wonder how much nostalgia plays into these things, even with stuff I still enjoy all these years later.


You have to put a good amount of time into DD1 FC to really appreciate it. My first impression of it was also pretty bad, and you can see in my first post about it I'm essentially echoing the hg101 sentiments. However I don't usually trust my first impressions of these kinds of games which led to me consulting the sages in this thread. Trust me the game is really clean and satisfying when you learn how to approach it.

I view console conversions of arcade games as essentially arrange modes. So I'm not really playing FC over the AC version, I'd like to give that a go eventually. As for DDA, it's ludicrously expensive in Japan and I don't have a PC to play roms so I doubt I'll get to play anytime soon.

...

I fired up DD1 Gameboy last night and was finding it quite a bit harder than FC; Abobo's grapples are brutal. Unfortunately it kept crashing on me, so I doubt I'll be able to see this one through to the end. Is it prone to crashing, or is my cart just dying?
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:08 am 


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kitten wrote:
just took fc contra to the last level of loop 15!! i don't know if this has been mentioned on here before - and i do not think it has - but higher loops of fc contra are noticeably more difficult than the nes version.


Yes, someone here did mention that the FC version's difficulty starts a loop higher than the NES version, but I'm pretty sure it's not as simple that. I'm entirely convinced that the NES version is the original version and the FC version is the revision and not the other way around as it is normally assumed and the difficulty adjustment on the FC version feels like an addition they made along with the sound test mode and the final stage clear jingle.

ACSeraph wrote:
I fired up DD1 Gameboy last night and was finding it quite a bit harder than FC; Abobo's grapples are brutal. Unfortunately it kept crashing on me, so I doubt I'll be able to see this one through to the end. Is it prone to crashing, or is my cart just dying?


DD1GB can be a bit tougher than DD1FC, since the checkpoints are placed at the beginning of your current area, rather than at the start of your last fight, but it does give you extends. I really didn't find it too difficult myself though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:25 am 


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The AI in the Genesis DD1 is totally busted. Enemies just stick to your ass like flies the entire time and seem to have very few behaviors that aren't just 'follow player, attack player.' The speed is also completely off. It looks nice and the cart is a cool curiosity since it's unlicensed but I could never recommend playing it.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:31 am 


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kitten wrote:
interesting! any idea if there's any sort of difficulty increase after loop 10? i seriously wasn't noticing anything at all for several loops and stopped after nomissing that loop. if you never stop getting extends then there's no point to looping, you have to be really bad at the game to be dying more than once-per-stage on average with how little it changes.

any idea if you can exceed 99 lives? it would be hilarious if you reset to 1.


No idea on the loops. I checked lives and it turns out it is possible to exceed 99 lives... by one. The game won't award any more while you have 100, which it displays as A0. Unlike Contra, there doesn't appear to be any point where the game stops giving out extends. Even after looping the score counter back to zero they keep coming.

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Otherwise, yep, came up with the rest myself


You've got a real eye for this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:00 pm 


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Thanks. :mrgreen: I find the element of observance - "How can I survive this? What can I use?" - intrinsic to the charm of hardcore action gaming. A test of not only reflexes and tactics, but also resourcefulness. Best of all, unlike IRL, you can die horribly and try again ad infinitum, until you're a regular MacGyver. :lol: I think it's why I gravitated to Metal Black and Gun.Smoke for my ST writing endeavours, both of them relying on moderately obscure techniques to balance out seemingly-insurmountable, much-lamented odds.

(this is also why I pick up input glitches like lint on velcro! Image)

Stage 6 of Saigo exemplifies the need for resourceful play. You can't control the accursed RNG spawner, but the terrain is set in stone (bwaaa!), and will reliably influence enemy behaviour - as will your own actions (monks and jumpslashers HATE it when your Y position is better than theirs!). In the best tradition of hardcore action (and life itself I suppose!), the tricky part is applying these learned solutions on the fly in a furiously changeable battlefield.

Speaking of stage 6's wickedly unhelpful RNG spawns - favourite thing has to be a monk and samurai spawning on the same frame, so that when you hop to bait the former's staff toss, the latter emerges from behind his cloak all "Surprise, motherfucker!" Image Image Alone on The Hellish Battlefield™, don't trust nobody! Image

---

Spent some time trying to master the fine art of the st6 jumpslasher dodge - deliberately overlapping so they'll haplessly cleave the empty space in front of them. Their reach is scary, but as with the groundtypes, there's a considerable safespot at overlap. In a situation where attempting to slip past will see them pivot and gash you, this can save your bacon. Ideally you won't have to use this technique at all, but it's good to know if the worst happens (typically a giant+JS same-frame spawn, with pursuers impeding a retreat).

Crouching near the rocks can allow some nice safespots too, versus single monks, samurai and jumpslashers, though a backstabber will come along shortly to kill you. Again, a potential last resort.

Also, I don't think I ended up using this at all in my current run, but you don't need to jump onto the rocks at all. It's theoretically possible to go from one end of the stage to the other without hitting [jump] once. Just walk into them and Tsukikage will clamber his way up. Potentially useful if you want a jump stalled for some reason. PCE version lacks this mechanic entirely, in addition to making the rocks themselves a deadly liability as mentioned here. Annoying change.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:40 am 


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Any wisdom for me as I begin going for the DD2 FC clear? That final boss seems really gimmicky, I have no idea how to fight him. Also the ninjas tend to give me a tough time.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:33 am 


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Jonny2x4 wrote:
Yes, someone here did mention that the FC version's difficulty starts a loop higher than the NES version, but I'm pretty sure it's not as simple that. I'm entirely convinced that the NES version is the original version and the FC version is the revision and not the other way around as it is normally assumed and the difficulty adjustment on the FC version feels like an addition they made along with the sound test mode and the final stage clear jingle.


http://tomorrowcorporation.com/posts/re ... conclusion

this seems to pretty thoroughly cover a lot of what changes and when/why. really interesting article my friend sharc found when i was talking about this with him.

- - - - - - - - - -

in OTHER NEWS, i continue my unending quest to put off a game i really want to clear (ninja spirit) to get distracted by literally anything else. what is it this time? well, it's the first kaizo chojin shubibinman game!

i just did a nomiss clear recording! you can find my review beneath it. i'd never finished the first game before despite genuinely loving the heck out of the other three games, so i'm glad to have finally come back to this, learned it, and found myself loving it, too.

it's a wee bit janky in a couple of ways, but it's otherwise a really solid -if breezy - little action game easily recommended to those with a big love for the pc engine, quirky action games, and that era of japanese entertainment flavor, in general. this can be really easily played without any japanese reading comprehension with some minor tips, which i've put into this pastebin for y'all. if you're looking for a fluffy diversion, this one is rather cute and worth the couple of hours it'll take to grab a couple easy clears.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:43 pm 


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^ Noted for the index, as per your usual fine form! Image

ACSeraph wrote:
Any wisdom for me as I begin going for the DD2 FC clear? That final boss seems really gimmicky, I have no idea how to fight him. Also the ninjas tend to give me a tough time.


Been a couple years since I played DD2FC in-depth, but here's some Hard 1LC notes with specific advice regarding ninjas and Teh Mysterious Warrior. In brief - ninjas can't duck! Exploit this mercilessly. Image

Beware the input glitches on turning and stopping, btw - they're minor (the sort you have to really try to trigger), but worth being aware of given how merciless FC Hard is.

I like how the customarily superb DD Advance retrofitted DD2's last boss into the first game's story.
Spoiler: show
He's now the penultimate boss and basically showed up wanting a good fight after hearing that Billy and Jimmy were on the warpath, remarking with disgust at Willy's treachery.


Ah, DDA. Willy lay still from exhaustion, indeed! One of gaming's most sharply-observed love letters to a flawed titan. Sucks they were confined to the minimum ROM size, but I suspect that may have channeled their energies into its no-nonsense arcade focus. Could go straight into a cab. Just the survival mode alone would make it a must-have for Technos aficionados.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:20 pm 


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kitten wrote:
Jonny2x4 wrote:
Yes, someone here did mention that the FC version's difficulty starts a loop higher than the NES version, but I'm pretty sure it's not as simple that. I'm entirely convinced that the NES version is the original version and the FC version is the revision and not the other way around as it is normally assumed and the difficulty adjustment on the FC version feels like an addition they made along with the sound test mode and the final stage clear jingle.


http://tomorrowcorporation.com/posts/re ... conclusion

this seems to pretty thoroughly cover a lot of what changes and when/why. really interesting article my friend sharc found when i was talking about this with him.


Very interesting stuff. Didn't know there could variations of the attract demo based on the emulator you're using.

Incidentally, one difference between the NES and FC Contra is the fact that the rock formation in Stage 1 are different. It's such a peculiar change for a subtle detail.

In the Famitsu preview for FC Contra, the rock formations are the same ones used in the NES version rather than the ones they went with, which for me is evidence that the FC version is the later version. And on top of that, the snowfall effect in Stage 5 seems to be different based on the screenshots.
https://archive.org/details/Famitsu_Iss ... J/page/n23


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:37 pm 


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some highlights from the big contra looping marathon -

Image

this point in the game is hell. i'm not even sure if i really made a mistake, here. probably moved the screen a little too far forward without making a jump that i should have made, but i got really unlucky with the stream of gunners spawning. there's a few choke points like this where if you do not brazenly move forward you will become surrounded and die. it's a bit mean, but it's also very exciting. i really, really wish you could just load up max difficulty right off the bat and have fun with that, because i don't particularly want to loop the game like 10 times to get back up to this point again.

Image

similarly hairy situation in the same spot but i make it out

Image

this fight lasted more than an entire fucking minute. look at how close this was!!! aaaa!!!!!! i felt like really hot shit for surviving this. the shrimp dispenser is fucking scary without spread O__O;;

Image

a stage 1 death ; __ ; revenge of the zako
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:45 pm 


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Beautiful, beautiful GIFs. :cool:

That st7 bit always comes up, for good reason. :mrgreen: Probably the game's single nastiest chokepoint? Vanguard had a particularly classic encounter recently.

High-loop hyper-armoured st8 critters are some scary shit! My own favourite brush with disaster, had to BACDAFUCUP really quick, that mid-air hugger kill wasn't gonna happen! I didn't dare face DEMON DRAGON GOD JAVA without Spread+Rapid+Barrier on that run - they come hard at me imma come right back! Image (a phrase more IREM than Konami, I know!)
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:39 am 


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Cool — I've certainly never looped FC Contra to that degree. Kind of amazing to see it can keep that level of zako spam up without turning into complete soup.

Quote:
i really, really wish you could just load up max difficulty right off the bat and have fun with that, because i don't particularly want to loop the game like 10 times to get back up to this point again.


Not to sound like a philistine, but save states? You can even do that on an Everdrive if you're so inclined.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Scrolling Action Monogatari
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:15 am 


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Didn't want to make a new thread since Rogue Corps has been discussed earlier here. Things aren't looking that good, even with Nakazato on board:

https://youtu.be/Vf06dgVEuRE?t=398

(Guns overheating, status effects, melee attacks. WTF?)
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