Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[__SKYe]

Metal Slug is subtly different from Shinobi imo, since there's literally no collision with most humanoid enemies - you can pass straight through them (and they you) without even bumping. Of course there's still certain enemy types that'll kill you dead on contact, like X's mutants and basically any tank (player-driven tanks will run over enemies too, fair is fair!).

Yeah, I meant the general "contact that won't kill you". Metal Slug is a perfect example of not being strict in this regard (unlike most arcade games) while still being brutally tough. Definitely ups the charm and quality of the game(s) a notch or two.

[BIL]

Strictly in the context of arcade sidescrolling action, I wonder how influential Yie Ar Kung Fu might've been on stuff like Ninja Spirit and Metal Slug. It's the earliest high-profile game I can recall where enemies specifically need to attack the player to do damage, with it being possible (and often beneficial) to pass straight through them otherwise.

Spartan X was the same year, and has a few of the "zero contact" approach's hallmarks. IIRC, bosses work basically like Yie Ar's, and although most regular enemies rely on contact damage, it's ala Shinobi's "attack dog" policy - they either have specific attacks associated with contact, or they're frickin' hornets and snakes!

I know there's some other game out there I'm totally overlooking as well, haha. It's one of my favourite little sub-topics within 2D action gaming ("zero contact" beltscrollers abound, but they're a rare breed in straight 2D), and a genuinely critical distinction within 2D game design (maneuvering space being inherently limited, removing contact has huge implications for how to effectively menace the player).

[__SKYe]

Strictly in the context of arcade sidescrolling action, I wonder how influential Yie Ar Kung Fu might've been on stuff like Ninja Spirit and Metal Slug. It's the earliest game I can recall where enemies specifically need to attack the player to do damage, with it being possible (and often beneficial) to pass straight through them otherwise.

There might have been some earlier, especially in the pre-fighting games category (there were quite a few even before Yie Ar), perhaps from the shift to 1-on-1 fighting, and the closer ties to reality (compared to other genres, where many enemies against the player is the norm), making it look unrealistic to take damage from simply touching the opponent.

Spartan X/Kung Fu Master is the polar opposite, and relies nearly universally in contact damage (I can't recall the bosses, though).

Speaking of Irem, now I wonder if Geostorm/GunForce II work like Metal Slug or not, given that it was developed by the team who would form Nazca (and right before they left to form it).

I know there's some other game out there I'm totally overlooking as well, haha. It's one of my favourite little sub-topics within 2D action gaming ("zero contact" beltscrollers abound, but they're a rare breed in straight 2D)

Yeah, beat em ups are the opposite -- contact damage would make for a fairly crappy one.

... and a genuinely critical distinction within 2D game design (maneuvering space being inherently limited, removing contact has huge implications for how to effectively menace the player).

Indeed, it is hard to pull off, and requires considerably more planning than standard contact damage, but I think the result is really satisfying, if done right.
The one thing I believe could be universally applied to such games, is a hard counter against players that linger too long close to an enemy (a bit like in Metal Slug), perhaps even harsher than getting hit by the enemy's standard attack (if the game has a health bar or similar). Of course, enemies would need a close-quarters move (knife slash, pistol-whip, etc) if they don't have one, but the emphasis could (should?) be on allowing the player to slash past an enemy while he's in cooldown phase (after shooting a projectile, for example) allowing a greater degree of flexibility on how the player can approach enemies. Even cooler if the player has a dash move, allowing for a quick close-in -> walk by while the enemy's cooling down -> slash and move on.
A moving slash would be nice, of course -- allowing the player to walk by an enemy only to make them stop to slash isn't too thrilling.

This goes mostly to melee oriented games, mind you, as in shooting games like Metal Slug, MS's approach is better. Damn, will have to give this a try someday.

[Jonny2x4]

RT1 has contact damage, but RT2 and 3 doesn't. The console versions of RT1 and RT2 are significantly easier than the AC ones by the way. The FC version of RT1 has a three on-screen enemy cap, which I used to my advantage since in some areas it was easy to push enemies with your bullets and prevent them from spawning. I don't know if MD RT2 has such a similar restriction, but I remember the final boss in the AC version was incredibly cheap.

By the way, the JP manual for Dead Fox has some ridiculous marksman stats for our hero Kenny Smith. His quickshot speed is 0.09 seconds with an M92F, can shoot 15 bullets in a bullseye and only needs 1 sniper bullet for a headshot.
https://twitter.com/chou_nosuke/status/ ... 0573860864

[BIL]

With skills like those you'd think he could afford a pair of trousers! (curious quirk of both FC Rolling Thunder and Dead Fox's character palettes, that actually bugs me less than the FC Contras' making it look like Bill & Lance are running around in pajama bottoms!)

Talk of collision and Metal Slug's mastery made me recall something I FUCKIN HATE, RAWRRR: games where player and enemy can freely overlap, but the former takes damage in the process. The Killing Game Show (MD) does this and it completely turned me off the otherwise cool labyrinth running, at least for the time being. I like the Gradius-esque enemy formations, but not when they just kinda waft all over you to drain your HP.

[Imhotep]

Strictly in the context of arcade sidescrolling action, I wonder how influential Yie Ar Kung Fu might've been on stuff like Ninja Spirit and Metal Slug. It's the earliest high-profile game I can recall where enemies specifically need to attack the player to do damage, with it being possible (and often beneficial) to pass straight through them otherwise.

Seibu's Knuckle Joe also dates from 1985. Passing through opponents while punching them is the primary way of dealing with foes in that game.

[BIL]

Oh wow, first time I've even seen that one! I always forget Seibu were active that far back. Digging the pseudo Hokuto no Ken vibe, kinda... pre-apocalyptic.

[Imhotep]

yes, cool game, the devs clearly wanted to catch the HnK vibe, also from a gameplay perspective. The fast pace and freedom of movement feel quite modern even today.

Seibu were innovators back then, Wiz is also a cool game and Kung-Fu Taikun, too, if one digs the single screen confinement.

[FinalBaton]

A friend mentioned Time Soldiers on the SMS to me today. What's the consensus on that one? Is it decent?

Checked a vid and it has me intrigued...

[Herr Schatten]

A friend mentioned Time Soldiers on the SMS to me today. What's the consensus on that one? Is it decent?

Checked a vid and it has me intrigued...

It's nice, but it plays a little clunky, imo.

[Sumez]

I see a lot of repeated love for Double Dragon II (FC) in here, but never any mention of Double Dragon III (FC). Is it simply not worth our time compared to the second game?

[BIL]

I actually really like it, but yes, its stage design and fighting systems are a categoric step down from DDII FC's zenith. Strictly average followup to a remarkably accomplished predecessor.

In DDIII's favour, even though its movesets are nowhere as wide, nor its combat as seamlessly flowing, I do like the customarily punishing violence. Chin's three-hit combo shatters chumps real good. The last boss is also satisfyingly fiendish, as much if not moreso than anything in DDII FC. Only really recommendable to FC Technos lovers, but far from bad in its own right.

[FinalBaton]

Curious to see what the commentaria will say about DDIII. From what I remember, the developper got obviously lazy with both the arcade game and the NES port.

I haven't played it in a long while though, so I can't remember just how exactly it stacks up

[FinalBaton]

Hmm... interesting to read what BIL just wrote there. Maybe the game is better than I remember...

[Sumez]

Well, just bought it, so we'll see.
But maybe I should play through DD2 first just to be familiar with what we are up against here.
I really never had any interest in the DD series. >_>

[Jonny2x4]

Double Dragon 3 on the Arcade and NES were developed as parallel projects according to Kishimoto's old website, in contrast to the first two games, which had the NES versions being made much later. DD3 AC was outsourced to East Technology and has kind of its own fighting system (there's no head grabs, but you can do a suplex and each character has his own unique jump throw), while the FC/NES version was made in-house and plays more like the first two NES games.

The AC version also had item shops where you use real money (as opposed to in-game currency) to buy new characters (that are basically glorified extra lives), moves and weapons, but the later JP revision (US version was released first) removed that and allows you to choose your character from the get-go.

On the NES version, you only start off as Billy (and Jimmy, if you're playing 2P mode) and acquire the two extra characters (Chin and Ranzou) later on, allowing you to switch between them anytime via a pause menu. The FC version is slightly easier than the NES version, but your endings are locked depending on whether your character lived or die after the final battle (forcing you to play 2P mode if you want to see Jimmy's ending).

[BIL]

Well, just bought it, so we'll see.
But maybe I should play through DD2 first just to be familiar with what we are up against here.
I really never had any interest in the DD series. >_>

Obligatory: If you only play one, make it Double Dragon Advance (GBA). Foot of this post for why!

Regarding FC entries: DDII is way too unique to be of much use here. Never seen anything quite like its rising attacks. Quick primer. Requiring you to be either recovering from a knockdown, or rising from a jump landing to execute power moves probably sounds daft on paper, but it's super-smooth and winningly violent in action. Chaining a spinkick into a couple of knees and an uppercut satisfies like little other brawling violence on FC (particularly with those inimitably comedic/BEEFY Technos Pain Sounds! BWAP BWAP BWOW)

REMEMBER KIDS: the FC's max difficulty eats the NES equivalent's face off. FC Difficult enemies will not. stop. attacking until one of you is DEAD. NES ones just kinda amble around throwing the occasional attack, and they have half the HP too. I fired up the FC one, got my ass torn apart, then watched a NES speedrun assuming I just sucked. Nope, it's the NES AI that sucks. GO FC OR GET FUCKED (man, sorry about the harsh language! I'm gettin' into the brutal Technos vibe again just writing about this stuff! )

The NES one is still great fun, mind, and a helluva good time in 2P co-op. But you gotta play the FC one to witness an improbably searing excercise in Technos Pincer Brutality.™ Two enemies onscreen max has never been so menacing or so painful. And that makes WHOOPIN THEY ASS INSTEAD at least twice as rewarding!

All this said: if you like one of these, chances are you'll at least appreciate the other. And DD1, which has a ridiculously undeserved rep for sloppy combat. Real talk: when fighting anyone but Jimmy "THA SPOILAR" Lee, if you're getting hit, you're playing like shit. All the bitching threw me off revisiting for years. And the game got scarce and pricey in the interim! Scrubs, not even once. As primitive and buggy as it is, it has some neat tricks of its own. Disarming enemies is a deadly affair with knives and TNT doing mortal damage (both are mostly novelties in II/III). You can beat the shit out of floored enemies, while their buddy attempts to break up both your mounted attack and standing grabs (II/III lack these gritty aspects; no hitting 'em while they're down, and they'll respectfully step back while you're grapple-mauling their pal). It also has some very satisfying point-blank midboss techs, and inexplicably... it's the only one of the trio that lets you fight its strongmen in pairs. I can't understand why DDII insisted on single deployment, woulda been rad. One of that game's few mis-steps.

It's a rough-edged but lovably mean-spirited little series that abruptly reached true excellence in DDII before settling down again. I find them really interesting from a purely AC vs FC porting perspective too.

Also, Technos were masters of the comedic yet genuinely pathos-invoking pain face. Look at this chump getting the wind knocked outta him. 3;



Maybe you shoulda STAYED IN SCHOOL so I wouldn't have to HIT YOUR NUTSACK WITH A BROKEN BOTTLE (・｀W´・)





(hit it so hard it breaks the sprite limit, even!)

Oh geeze though, I just remembered DDIII's dumb unskippable talky bits. Just long enough to irk, and utterly un-eventful at that. Technos seemed to get a brutal case of that in the late FC-to-SFC transition. I'm actually glad Return of Double Dragon is missing all that crap, if the SFC Kunios are any indication. DDIII's not as bad luckily, but the slide towards wastin' muh fucking time had begun!

[FinalBaton]

Tecnos pain-faces are a treasure indeed, lol. They're hilarious yet perfectly convey the pain those characters are experiencing. Br00tal stuff \m/

I need to learn all the moves in DDII and replay it. Looks like there are some techniques I haven't been using

[Jonny2x4]

If you can get a second person to play the game with you, the double hurricane kick when you're both playing as the Lee brothers is overpowered as hell. My only gripe with DD3FC's combat system is that they took out the over-the-shoulder throw from the previous games. You have choice between smashing grabbed enemies with your knees or elbows, with not much difference between them. The absence of the Flying Knee and the Hyper Uppercut I've never really mind that much for some reason.

It seems that the FC versions of DD2 and DD3, as well as Return of Double Dragon, were actually the later revisions. It's pretty much obvious with RODD, since it has some refinements over Super DD, such as multi-hit hurricane kicks and the ability to trade weapons on the floor. With DD2 and DD3, the changes are less obvious, but they're still there, like the rebalanced hard mode on DD2 and the conditional endings in DD3.

I personally would've loved to had seen the originally planned cutscenes/stage layouts for RODD, but more importantly they should've made friendly fire a setting in the options screen (like they did in Combatribes) instead of the Mode A/B thing they did in the final game, considering that a second player can join-in anytime (the PCE version of DD2 had this same flaw). Also, the option to choose your character would've been nice too, seeing how they went through the effort of differentiating the Lee brothers' move set in this one. The manual even implies that Jimmy was even supposed to have more unique moves, since a lot of the moves shared between both brothers are described as Billy moves, but in the final game only his punches (and the reverse roundhouse kick he does in the JP version) are different.

Also, it would've been nice to had seen more of Marian in her policewoman uniform, rather than just the manual art covered by the unnecessary text.

[FinalBaton]

You have choice between smashing grabbed enemies with your knees or elbows, with not much difference between them.

Can't you somersault-throw though?

[Jonny2x4]

Yes, but it's not the same. Incidentally DD2FC had more grabbing options (knee kick, elbow, upper kick and throw).

[Sumez]

Obligatory: If you only play one, make it Double Dragon Advance (GBA).

Boxed copy is way too expensive for me (for a genre I'm still not into), and I'm not planning on buying non-boxed GBA games :\
Maybe I'll give it a go if DD2 hits the spot for me.

[BIL]

It seems that the FC versions of DD2 and DD3, as well as Return of Double Dragon, were actually the later revisions. It's pretty much obvious with RODD, since it has some refinements over Super DD, such as multi-hit hurricane kicks and the ability to trade weapons on the floor. With DD2 and DD3, the changes are less obvious, but they're still there, like the rebalanced hard mode on DD2 and the conditional endings in DD3.

I liked DD3FC's subtle encouragement to finish the game with everyone still alive. I'd shoot for that anyway, but it's rad the game itself implies (by omission) they didn't make it. I'd have included greyed-out photos with a little epitaph, although absence speaks volumes! "HE WOULDA BEEN A DOCTOR IN HIS POOR VILLAGE" ;-;

My favourite RODD perk, besides much better-sequenced BGM, is stunned enemies being able to randomly duck your combo-ending roundhouse - which will force you to armlock their followup attack, from which you can either land an almost-certainly fatal combo, or chuck 'em (into their buddies, or not - either way they're gonna go all RAEG MODE and become even easier to hit).

This, or the roundhouse connects with an almighty crack and they go flying and sprawling like they've been hit by a bus. Since the game's all about choreography, I like using the flashier, less efficient moves and having the occasional back-forth like that.

Speaking of choreographing... this is handily supported by the enemy's pointblank defense. If you're too close, they'll turtle relentlessly while backing up. This can frustrate initially, but it actually enables some nice control and risk/reward elements. Let 'em back up to striking range, then either stuff their attack with one of your own, or let 'em try and armlock 'em. Taking apart enemy waves became a lot quicker and more intuitive once I'd noticed this, to the point I'd see a backstabber approaching and quickly get his buddy to take a swing -> armlock and wham! Both enemies flattened with the same throw.

Was delighted when I realised that midbosses weren't armlock-immune, they just stubbornly avoid being in range. Use their blockstun against them (or get 'em against a wall) and that won't be a problem.



"JEEEZUS CHROIST, ME FACKIN KIDNEH"

Game's absolutely not for everyone, with its indulgently filmic combat and especially the low speed. Still, I have a lot of fun whenever I fire this one up, either solo or with company. Everybody loves the "popcorn" sound on the armlock P finisher! Also enemy RAEG MODE lol. I like being all "SUP PARTNUH" as a rager goes for my buddy and giving him something else to be unhappy about! Only in his dying moments, mind - THEY NEVER SURVIVE LONG WHEN I'M THROUGH (・｀W´・)

[__SKYe]

Man, I really need to give DD (GBA) a try, it looks pretty awesome.

Also glad to see that the updated graphics (compared to the FC) still retain the iconic painful faces.



That mug is comparable to DD2's (FC) Roper:



Technos will be Technos.

[BIL]

I always know I'm in good company when Technos's mastery of comical yet stinging violence is getting the love it deserves. ^__^

btw, here's a quick demo of RODD's proximity-sensitive AI:

Spoiler

As shown in the first half, enemies will turtle persistently up close. When I quit hammering him, he predictably backs up to striking range to attempt an attack. Note that enemies will never try to hit you outside of this range! In this case I deliberately let him attack, to score an armlock (the timing is a cinch). Alternatively I could've just hit him, as shown here:

Spoiler

And this is why I love the SFC enemies' duck mechanic! He slips my knockout finish and tries to hit back, but I'm ready with the armlock and it's curtains for dear Williams. Point is, whenever an enemy's at striking range, shit is about to go down! If they're trying to back up to it, let 'em. If they're approaching from outside it, pre-empt them with either a strike or counter. Whatever the outcome you'll be in a position to do some damage. Works great on multiple enemies, too!

Spoiler

(I liek 2 MAEK EM RAEG an angry man is more prone to mistakes! )

TLDR: Don't chase after enemies, they'll happily reach optimum battering distance on their own. Keep the proximity mechanic in mind and be the puppet master, or perhaps the low-budget kung fu flick director. ;3

[FinalBaton]

Well I think it's actually quite fleshed out to have them block when you're on top of them. Some(most) beat 'em ups have baddies do NOTHING when you're on top of 'em! allowing you to pounce them mercilessly without them doing anything! (which sometime might be implemented by design, as one of the few safe ways to dispatch enemies without getting hit back)

[BIL]

The game's director Muneki Ebinuma is a really interesting guy, who later served as planner for the superlative Double Dragon Advance - I recommend the interview with him here (think you may have translated it, Johnny? Sterling work).

RODD itself is one of those wildly ambitious, not quite successful projects I love having around. The system won't be for everyone, and doesn't feel fully balanced or realised even then, and the low speed is a big ask of the player*, but I always believed its heart was in the right place.

*though I'm always surprised at how comfily it plays, and how I totally forget the low speed, once I'm back at the controls... maybe because the focus on timing is so intense, and the penalty for failure an even fiercer beating than the Technos norm.

[__SKYe]

Yeah it is, and the arm grab looks pretty fantastic as well. Loving the game more and more by the minute.

Spoiler

(I liek 2 MAEK EM RAEG an angry man is more prone to mistakes! )

Also love how the guy behind you just refrains from attacking you from behind like "I ain't fuckin' with this dude".
Which is actually in tune with the FC games, as this will often happen there as well.

[BIL]

Yeah, they're still quite polite in that regard. As with DDIIFC, enemies technically can rescue their comrades, but only by "accident" (ie, you start a grapple after they've launched an attack).

It's a shame DD1's vicious enemy interference vanished from not only its FC sequels, but RODD too. It's not like it'd cramp the choreography; in that GIF, I could've just thrown the Williams immediately if I thought Roper was going to backstab me. I guess it was a "player service," like Toaplan's sealing of sniper tank bullets at point-blank in their STGs.

DD1FC enemies will also not only retrieve dropped weapons, but turn and lash out if you attempt to exploit this... always found the latter detail very impressive. For RODD AI, once a weapon hits the floor it ceases to exist. Shame, as the SFC game is the first since DD1FC where armed enemies are truly dangerous. DD3FC has similar enemy AI to the first, but weapons are little more than novelty there (I do love the coarse, indescribably vicious sound the broken bottle makes though!).

And then there's DD1's double strongman battles. What a bizarre thing, how such a technically rough, at times outright struggling game ended up with all these unique goodies. Certainly helps it hold its own, at least.

[FinalBaton]

Ah! So that's why I've always liked NES DD1 enemy AI! just couldn't put my finger on it.

I also like how some enemies duck under your kicks and other won't, some will anti-air and other won't, etc. That really makes you approach each enemy type differently. Which is a great thing for a beat 'em up's gameplay