Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Vanguard]

Inhalation just feels too slow paced to me. Stopping in place to inhale an enemy (which is 1/2 of the attack process)...then you have to shoot it which also halts you in place and only deals with one enemy...not a fan of the flow there. Hell I'd rather play with the "Throw/Suplex" copy skills in Super Star, at least those are satisfyingly violent and visceral, on top of being a bit faster.

Give me the toybox.

But that's two kills, not one. Inhalation stops you for like half of a second, is an instant kill, has a gigantic hitbox, and can potentially take out several enemies at once. Spitting a star has basically no delay, full screen range, and deals high damage. I didn't think much of normal Kirby either but Dream Land 1 Extra showed me the light.

Now if we're talking post-Super Star then yeah, go get yourself a hammer.

Is the SNES Kirby worth bothering with?

Super Star is one of the best and Dream Land 3 is one of the worst.

[copy-paster]

Still, still practicing Metal Slug 3.

Now I can defeat Rootmars consistently, also learning the knife cancel trick which is useful to knifing his brain.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Gave Bucky O'Hare a playthrough. I don't think it's really my thing unfortunately. I really appreciate its production values and its insane variety, but it leaned way too hard on railroading memorization bits and had a few too many poorly-telegraphed instant-kill attacks and hazards for my liking. I'll probably give it another shot though sometime, just to see if knowing what's coming helps me appreciate it better.

[Sumez]

That sums the game up quite well I think. It's very likable and creative, and it's super playable too, but it's not really top notch game design or anything.

[kitten]

Gave Bucky O'Hare a playthrough. I don't think it's really my thing unfortunately. I really appreciate its production values and its insane variety, but it leaned way too hard on railroading memorization bits and had a few too many poorly-telegraphed instant-kill attacks and hazards for my liking. I'll probably give it another shot though sometime, just to see if knowing what's coming helps me appreciate it better.

iirc, bil and i have both talked about liking it a fair bit on here, i found a chunk of posts where we discussed it here.

bucky o'hare is a very big favorite of mine and i'm always super bummed out when someone doesn't dig it because i feel like its occasionally incredible, cruel spurt of memorization is heavily mitigated by it being a completely solid platformer. my personal approach is viewing it almost like a progenitor to that kind of super meat boy school of design - where there's very little consequence for death and a lot of getting through it is tightening up your performance after the initially grueling first clear. you are given so many checkpoints and so many 1ups that the high level of difficulty is something i feel you're very gently eased into, and 1cc's become very easy and even delightful jaunts after that point. probably not worth no-missing because of how many pressure points there are to easily lose a single life on, but it's something i eventually want to do.

while i penalize the game for some of its bullshit and don't hold it to higher than roughly a middling-to-slightly-upper 3/4 stars, i love it nearly as much as some of my favorites and still use it as a banner on my youtube channel. heck, kinda worth considering using on here...



it's definitely Not For Everyone, but it's a game i'm willing to stake a bit on and overextend - i tend to recommend it even when people have bumpy or unpleasant starts because it really is like riding a bike after you get it down. i recommend giving it a second chance and maybe coming at it from a different perspective, i think it's worth the extra effort to find out if it will become a diamond in the rough for ya. i want to make clear here that i fucking loathe battletoads, as it is nothing but the worst of bucky o'hare repeated into infinity. i bring that up to try and point out that i very much don't consider myself someone to unjustly defend rote memorization in game. if you can get over the hump, it very well might be worth it.

plus, you know, how many nes games have cat girls? i've even got a two-page magazine spread for an fc advertisement and figures of bucky and jenny ;____; maybe the only western 90's cartoon/comic i'm extremely fond of and it's mostly thanks to this game.

- - - - - - - - - -

also, if you ever do come to like it a lot, there's the extra-cruel HARD MODE with one-hit kills! god damn that mode is mean. sometimes really easy and sometimes bafflingly cruel.

[BurlyHeart]

Is this the arcade version or the nes version you're all talking about?

Played the arcade briefly for the first time last weekend, and the presentation really impressed me. Looking forward to delving deeper into it.

[kitten]

nes/famicom. it's made by konami with a curiously strong presence of soon-to-be-treasure staff.

not sure of anyone here having experience with the arcade game, honestly!

[BIL]

Yeah, NES/FC. Which I've just remembered is coincidentally one of the header images on the front page, haha.

I like it a lot, as discussed in kitten's link. Can feel slightly gimmicky on account of a few too many wacky memoriser setpieces, but they're actually quite the minority of the grab bag. Red Planet's lava run is far and away the worst, very little else even approaches. Rocketing pace and variety, you can totally pick up on Masato Maegawa and Nobuya Nakazato's future works.

Some very underrated BGM too. Salvage Chute is fuckin intense! Some good covers out there too.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

LET'S TALK ISOMETRIC PLATFORMING ACTION! Seriously, what is everyone's opinion on Snake Rattle 'n Roll?

I lament the lack of control options as the D-Pad cardinal directions are mapped to diagonals and there's no way to change it so up is actually up, etc. There's also no 2 player life steal respawning (if one player loses all their lives/continues, you can't take a life from the other player to continue). But it's really fun, and adorable.

[mycophobia]

isometric perspectives can go fly a kite

[kitten]

re: snake rattle & roll - a childhood favorite for its absurdity, but i view it the same as i do roughly everything by rare, these days. technically competent but ultimately worthless. it is chock-filled with their intensely spiteful design and impetus for rote memorization without ever feeling really honed or satisfying, just cruel. best played as a cute novelty for five minutes and then discarded immediately after your very first game over.

very... european

[BrianC]

LET'S TALK ISOMETRIC PLATFORMING ACTION! Seriously, what is everyone's opinion on Snake Rattle 'n Roll?

I lament the lack of control options as the D-Pad cardinal directions are mapped to diagonals and there's no way to change it so up is actually up, etc. There's also no 2 player life steal respawning (if one player loses all their lives/continues, you can't take a life from the other player to continue). But it's really fun, and adorable.

Speaking of that, I wonder what the opinion is on Sneaky Snakes for GB, which plays like Snake Rattle 'n Roll without the isometric perspective.

I did like Snake Rattle 'n Roll when I first played it, but it has been awhile since I gave it a good play. I heard that the MD version has an extra stage, probably to make up for the sequel never coming out.

[Steamflogger Boss]

isometric perspectives can go fly a kite

^^^^^Feels very odd in old action games.

RE Kirby talk: it's the one classic series I could never get into. Found them too easy. I don't remember if I particularly tried the better SNES title but I have tried many games in the series, it blurs together. I like Kirby as a character though, I have an adorable Kirby plush.

Have we talked about HOW FUCKING AMAZING THE MESSENGER IS YET?

[Sumez]

I played Solstice as a kid and loved it, and I still love it. It's pretty much the ideal isometric game. It's not a pure action game, in fact you don't even have a direct attack, but it's not entirely puzzles either. There's a slight navigational action element to it, and a lot of exploration, adventure and even a tiny bit of world building through its strange atmosphere.



I've tried so many other isometric games hoping to scratch the same itch, but none fit the bill, and most have all the issues people here have already pointed out. Even Solstice 2 isn't anywhere near as good.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

technically competent but ultimately worthless. it is chock-filled with their intensely spiteful design and impetus for rote memorization

This is a really apt way of describing it I guess. They're interesting games mainly because of what they pull off technically, and I'd say they're worth playing at least a few times just to see what was achieved on the system, but they're not necessarily worth playing seriously for any length of time.

I played Solstice as a kid and loved it, and I still love it. It's pretty much the ideal isometric game. It's not a pure action game, in fact you don't even have a direct attack, but it's not entirely puzzles either.

Solstice also has that incredible title screen music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_gObHt1uZA

Solstice 2 - that was the one where the main character has a turban, right? It was interesting. Not bad I thought, if not quite as good as the first.

[Sumez]

Solstice 2 aka Equinox isn't really bad, but it gets repetitive quite fast, and unlike Solstice it's more action oriented (as in: you get to attack enemies), and has individual stages rather than the huge interconnected layout. The soundtrack is also super good (as always with Tim Follin), even if the style is radically different.

I intentionally didn't mention Solstice's music because I don't want it to be the only thing the game is known for

[kitten]

This is a really apt way of describing it I guess. They're interesting games mainly because of what they pull off technically, and I'd say they're worth playing at least a few times just to see what was achieved on the system, but they're not necessarily worth playing seriously for any length of time.

they're some of my most-hated clears i've done, tbh. i really wish i'd just left them as brief childhood rental memories. the only good thing i feel rare ever did was the nes port of marble madness, which is frankly pretty good despite the game being a tad anemic.

[Obscura]

Equinox is one of my all-time favorites. Incredible atmosphere, really good (and tough!) Zelda-esqe puzzle platforming action.

[Marc]

Not played it for many years (went through the remake version maybe ten years ago), but Head Over Heels is still the king of isometric games for me. Tried Solstice when I got the SNES mini, but despite enjoying it back in the day, it didn't hold my interest at all. Got Lumo sat on the PS hard drive, but sorely tempted to double dip for the Switch version.

[Sumez]

The caveat about Solstice is that you need to really delve into it for it to click, and if you just load it up expecting to play it all the way through on your first try, you're gonna be disappointed. It's hard to appreciate when you are just lost in a gigantic castle.
It was easier back in the day when I just played the games I had to play them, not to beat them. After playing around enough in the castle you will eventually get a solid feel of its layout which will allow you to find all staff pieces in a single run and actually beat the game.

Regarding Rare, they made a bunch of good games. Mostly flawed, and often focused on the technical prowess, sure. But I would say Donkey Kong Country 2 and Banjo-Kazooie both are great games. Battletoads is extremely enjoyable, too, even if it has pretty obviously poor design choices. Kind of like Bucky

[mycophobia]

the only good thing i feel rare ever did was the nes port of marble madness, which is frankly pretty good despite the game being a tad anemic.

Ah yes, the one exception to the rule "isometric perspective in action games sucks"

It seemed downright impossible back when I was a kid and really bad at games, and it still is kind of tough these days, though insanely short (like five minutes for the whole thing). Killer music.

Also concerning good things Rare did: they made some really good versions of Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy for the NES. And let's not forget DKC 1-3, all classics, though I maintain the decidedly unpopular opinion that DKC3 is the best of them. After that they may have gone a little overboard on item collection with the Banjos and DK64, but that's a discussion best left for the 3D action thread.

[kitten]

Ah yes, the one exception to the rule "isometric perspective in action games sucks"

if you're not familiar, the tengen mega drive version of marble madness (j-exclusive and not to be confused with the other version by EA whatever) is often considered the absolute best port and can be played with the mouse upside down like its ball is a trackball. haven't played that one, but given its price tag i've oft considered the nes port adequate enough.

i think there's a couple other isometric action games i like, but all that is -currently- coming to mind is max warrior/isolated warrior for fc/nes. that was a KID game and while it's not a favorite of mine, it's pretty deece. iirc, BIL liked it more than i did.

actually, let's dig up the posts -

bil's effort post

bil and i having a conversation about it

ah, battle formula gets brought up, then.
battle formula...

oh, right! sega's classic arcade titles, congo bongo & zaxxon, are both pretty good isometric action, too. what else, what else...

[FinalBaton]

I think Arcus Odyssey is pretty cool! Although not a masterpiece or anything

[BIL]

Ah yes, the one exception to the rule "isometric perspective in action games sucks"

if you're not familiar, the tengen mega drive version of marble madness (j-exclusive and not to be confused with the other version by EA whatever) is often considered the absolute best port and can be played with the mouse upside down like its ball is a trackball. haven't played that one, but given its price tag i've oft considered the nes port adequate enough.

I was wondering if you'd played it (NTSCJ MD). It's a rad game imo, within its specific niche - the deliberately short but wickedly intense arcade time trial. In that field, I'd chuck it in a desert island suitcase with Sega Rally.

No idea about the NES one at all, and tbh I've never played the AC one either. Just heard (and seen in various reports) that Tengen's port is damn close. Even if it's inaccurate in some way, it plays so well with the mouse I probably wouldn't care.

Always bears echoing, the Tengen port is a completely different production from EA's Genesis one. Which supposedly has mechanical issues, but most definitely sounds like shit.

Something that leaped out at me, looking up the NES's speedrun notes, was the time-extend wand being seemingly random. It sure as hell isn't in the AC or Tengen MD versions... strictly a "poor player service" there. If you're seeing it, you're doing it wrong! :3

i think there's a couple other isometric action games i like, but all that is -currently- coming to mind is max warrior/isolated warrior for fc/nes. that was a KID game and while it's not a favorite of mine, it's pretty deece. iirc, BIL liked it more than i did.

Yup, I love Max Warrior. It makes a ton of concessions to its viewpoint, which helps I think. If it expected traditionally steely STG perfection of the player I might well find it annoying, but it's pretty smooth as-is. Bizarre and wonderful Super Shinobi vibes from the doublejump somersault bomb.

ah, battle formula gets brought up, then.
battle formula...

In a shameless display of "rules for thee but not for me," I wangled Formula's second loop into this thread after I cleared it a while back. In hindsight I probably wouldn't now.

Actually no, fuck it. Still just about borderline enough imo. Turbo Force (T-T-T-Turbo Force) it's not*.

Mentioning as I'm not sure if you got round to it? TLDR: it's kinda borked imo, though not offensively so. Just feels more "dodge this, asshole!" overload than a skillful ratcheting-up. TBH I don't feel compelled to try for it after the (always wonderful) 1-ALL. As we discussed back then, it might be a different story if they didn't kneecap you down to base power, ensuring a grueling Loop 2 Stage 1 every time!

*there are times I'm this fucking close to saying ground-based verts like Gun.Smoke and Elemental Master are on-topic... but besides considering the "on ground = not shump" notion a bit reductive to STGs, it's also a point of pride for me that those games were never the fuck ever off-topic in the main chat forum. When I showed up circa '05 they weren't, but still, I bristle at the notion!

[Immryr]

i love isolated warrior. i've had it since i was a kid (get it) and always loved it. it's definitely not as demanding and rigorous as a lot of nes action games but as bil points out, it would be insanely annoying due to the isometric perspective if it were.

[kitten]

I was wondering if you'd played it (NTSCJ MD).

i'd like to and it's on the inevitable docket, i'm certain i'd quite enjoy it. my partner that i live with actually loves marble madness and has emulated it, said it's easily the best port. i'm already personally invested in one day playing it on a mega drive, but she'd also be tickled by it, so i feel it's something i won't completely forget about picking up.

Mentioning as I'm not sure if you got round to it? TLDR: it's kinda borked imo, though not offensively so.

i don't think i've given it any more time since my last spat of posting about it in the thread, but i can't remember if i talked about my one actual semi-real-stab at it where i got a few stages in and then died. my take is not really dissimilar to yours, honestly. it really didn't feel worth that much time and i similarly really dislike how it starts you from scratch on the power-up tree, rather than being more of a traditional loop. i'm still excited about getting a 2-ALL down, eventually, but it reminds me of how i was similarly really let down by hagane's second loop (if for entirely different reasons). those are both games i very dearly love and would have the energy to loop for if they were adequate successors to the first loop.
i'll... get around to it, i'm sure.

i've just been so low energy and so inundated with finally taking a stab at clearing a lot of the rapidly accruing backlog of recent, modern games. you've already seen me express how well thaaaat's going for me. when i get in a slump like this, i feel like i don't deserve to play good stuff because my heart won't be all the way in it. it's like doing the game a disservice to play it like that. meanwhile, depressed play is the most of what modern games seem to want out of you. if i hit a diamond in the rough like bleed i'll be pleased enough to find some energy to muster up, but i've yet to hit my groove back.

[BrianC]

NES Marble Madness isn't as accurate as the JP MD version. It's definitely one of the better conversions, though. Blows the SMS and EA's Genesis version out of the water. Funny how EA's Genesis version is technically inferior to Rare's NES version.

[WelshMegalodon]

Hope I'm not too late to the Kirby discussion:



I never really went back to Kirby's Adventure after getting the 100% last year, but kitten's recent posts encouraged me to have another run through it. The more I play it, the more I realize how impressive the graphics and animation are on the hardware... Kirby and his world make the Prince of Persia look stiff.

[kitten]

The more I play it, the more I realize how impressive the graphics and animation are on the hardware... Kirby and his world make the Prince of Persia look stiff.

soooo much of it is superb palette mastery (and sometimes neat cycling tricks like butter buildings' rotation). the biggest thing that makes kirby's adventure so impressive is that it's running on the MMC3 mapper, which is far from one of the most sophisticated or expensive (i imagine part of why they used it past its prime was that it made the cart easier to produce) on the famicom and the same one they used for SMB3. you ever wanna see what HAL does with a more powerful one, check metal slader glory, cuz holy heck that is an impressive looking game. maybe not necessarily "better looking," per se, but it's seriously something to behold.

[WelshMegalodon]

I've heard of Metal Slader Glory. In fact, I was about to wonder aloud why there hasn't been an English translation of it yet... until I realized that Stardust Crusaders had released one just last month! Holy Hannah!

Maybe now that a HAL title has been translated, the adventure gaming side of the Famicom's library will finally get its due among English-speaking fans...