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 Post subject: A shmup or not?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:05 pm 


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Are METAL SLUG,CONTRA,GUNSTAR HEROES,ALIEN SOLDIER,ALIEN SYNDROME,COMMANDO,NAM 1975,IKARI WARRIORS..and many more thrue SHMUPS???

Or what do you call them??? A SHMUP 'N RUN ??

Does anyone know :?:

MOD EDIT: edited topic title. -TF
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:17 pm 


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I think this topic is gonna be besiged with the reply '' No they're not true shmups!''

Yeah pretty much run and gun side scrollers, If your flying a single ship against an empire with no control over the direction of the ship thats a shmup in my book even though gunstar and slien soldier are great games they aren't true shmups imho.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:29 pm 


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Please stop writing topic titles in ALL CAPS.


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 Post subject: Run & Gun
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:33 pm 



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From what I've seen, they are usually referred to as Run & Guns.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:34 pm 



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Personally I consider them shmups, because the essence of gameplay remains the same as to what people might consider 'real' shmups.

I think if people call games like Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes and Contra "run and gun", shouldn't they call 'true' shmups "fly and gun"?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:21 pm 


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No no no no no no no no no.

Those games already have a genre. And while the theme is similar to a shmup, the gameplay is totally different. The whole "bullet dodging" aspect of real shmups is absent in games with gravity.


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 Post subject: Nope... no shmup there!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:22 pm 


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Quote:
METAL SLUG
CONTRA
GUNSTAR HEROES
ALIEN SOLDIER

Action platformers.

Quote:
NAM 1975

2D on-rail shooter.

Quote:
ALIEN SYNDROME
COMMANDO
IKARI WARRIORS

2D Shooter.
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 Post subject: Re: Nope... no shmup there!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:03 pm 


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Stormwatch wrote:
Quote:
METAL SLUG
CONTRA
GUNSTAR HEROES
ALIEN SOLDIER

Action platformers.

Quote:
ALIEN SYNDROME
COMMANDO
IKARI WARRIORS

2D Shooter.


I consider all of these Run & Guns, horizontal and vertical, respectively.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:44 pm 


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NO!!!!


If you jump, it isn't a shmup.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:36 pm 


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CMoon wrote:
If you jump, it isn't a shmup.


What about Last Duel? You can jump on the road levels. Sorta like Bump 'n Jump.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:00 pm 


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Wasn't the arcade version of Ikari Warriors auto-scrolling? I don't see why it wouldn't be considered as a shmup if nobody questions Gunsmoke as a shmup. And if people don't consider Gunsmoke a shmup simply on account of it featuring a person as your persona walking on the ground, then I could make a case about some other character shmups.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:08 pm 


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Aerostar and Aleste Gaiden both have jumping, but they are definatly shmups IMO.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:11 pm 


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Bump 'n Jump!!! I LOVE that game!!!

Hmm... then Silkworm / SWIV / Firepower2000 also has a jeep that jumps...


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 Post subject: Re: A shmup or not?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:17 pm 


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SPACE HARRIER wrote:
Are METAL SLUG,CONTRA,GUNSTAR HEROES,ALIEN SOLDIER,ALIEN SYNDROME,COMMANDO,NAM 1975,IKARI WARRIORS..and many more thrue SHMUPS???

Or what do you call them??? A SHMUP 'N RUN ??

Does anyone know :?:

MOD EDIT: edited topic title. -TF


While Malc and others reviewed some of the above games on the site once upon a time, I can respectfully say he now agrees they are not true 2D shooters, or at least should not be allowed in shmups chat. They're platform games where you shoot a lot. Seems simple enough to me. Of course you cannot be dogmatic. If Gunstar Heroes had forced scrolling (that'd be interesting to say the least) then yeah, it would be a shmup.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:23 pm 


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Silkworm is a tough one. When you play as the jeep, it's pretty much just Moon Patrol. Is that really a shmup? Hard to say.

And if Ikari Warriors has forced scrolling, why wouldn't it be a shmup if Zero Gunner 2 is? It's sort of hard to seperate superficial considerations (like if you're a person or a ship) from gameplay considerations. When I look at Spy Hunter, there's no doubt in my mind that it isn't a shmup. But the gameplay is basically like any other shmup, only the theme being different. Is Spy Hunter a shmup?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:27 pm 


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Bangai-O?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:45 pm 


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Bangai-O is definetly a hard one to call, theres bullet dodging bombing, chaining in a way, Its a borderliner if ever there was one. I think people may just draw on its creator treasure to justify it as a shmup but then again its got such a puzzle element to consider aswell, a puzzle shmup? Think ikaruga nearly has that covered.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:58 pm 


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Hmmm. Yeah Ikari Warriors is a tough one to call. Then again maybe not.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:09 pm 


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the metal slug series has a lot of shmup sections


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:12 pm 


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IMO, Moon Partrol is a tough call. It has forced scrolling and lots of enemies to shoot at, but it also has platforming elements like jumping over obstacles and there is no flying. I love the Atari 2600 port of the game.

One of the toughest games to call is Total Carnage. It has forced scrolling, but the scrolling stops at points and the paths branch quite a bit. It also has arena styled bonus rounds, though they are secondary to the main game. There is a collection and searching element not present in most shmups too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:30 pm 


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Quote:
If Gunstar Heroes had forced scrolling (that'd be interesting to say the least) then yeah, it would be a shmup.


You all talk about FORCED SCROLLING ,so if it has forced scrolling then it is a shmup??

What about GALAGA,SPACE INVADERS or ASTEROIDS they have no scrolling at all!! but still they are called shmups...WHY??
And what about ROBOTRON 2084,SMASH TV??
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:41 pm 


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I have no idea where this shmup definition came from. I use to think of games with high action and lots of shooting as shmups, but the defination here is so strict with the forced scrolling and no gravity thing. My defination was constantly shooting, all weapons as projectiles or stuff like flamethrowers, enemies constantly being thrown at you, and enemies shooting lots of projectiles. Stuff like Megaman didn't count becuase enemies are not being constantly thrown at you and the game is more about getting through the stage than shooting at enemies. Since arguing about it just causes a bigger arugment, I just go with the definition here, even though I don't really agree with it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:43 pm 


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In a way Galaga does have forced scrolling. The star field in the back continuously scrolls.

A lot of people don't consider Space Invaders/Galaga/Asteroids/Robotron 2084 to be shmups. I think Space Invaders and Galaga are shmups, but Asteroids and Robotron 2084 definitely aren't. They're arena shooters.

Nobody's really come up with a good definition of what is or isn't a shmup. But most people agree that Contra style games, Robotron style games, Space Harrier style games, Wing Commander style games, Star Fox style games, and Doom style games aren't shmups. And it seems people are 50/50 on Space Invaders and Galaga, too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:34 am 


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Blue Lander wrote:
They're arena shooters.


I quite like that as a genre definition, not a term I've heard before. Maybe this board needs another forum though: 'Almost On Topic' :D

I'd love to post about a load of robotron-like shmups (sorry, Arena Shooters!) that I've seen lately - I think they are probably of interest to many on this board due to the crossover - but is everyone going to get annoyed if that ends up in shmups chat?

Is Shmups chat only for forced scrolling shooters?

At the end of the day, it's quite good that we can't pigeon hole all these games - it means developers aren't all doing the same thing :D
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:36 am 


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who cares?? just play em', innit.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:58 am 


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Fost wrote:
Blue Lander wrote:
They're arena shooters.


I quite like that as a genre definition, not a term I've heard before. Maybe this board needs another forum though: 'Almost On Topic' :D


I wish I could take credit for the phrase, but I think I heard somebody else use the term before on these boards. The whole "What is a shmup" issue has come up time and time again.

Personally, I think the whole problem here is that people try to define games as shmups rather than gameplay features as shmups. Instead of looking at shmups as a black and white definition, there should be degrees of "shmuppyness". Certain games are clearly 100% full on shmups by anybody's definition (1943, Gradius, R-Type, etc), but other games have some shmup features and some non-shmup features.

I don't think the sky would fall if arena shooters like Llamatron or Smash TV became shmups. As long as clearly 100% non shmups like Quake or Star Fox are kept out, I'm happy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:38 am 


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Blue Lander wrote:
I don't think the sky would fall if arena shooters like Llamatron or Smash TV became shmups. As long as clearly 100% non shmups like Quake or Star Fox are kept out, I'm happy.


I wouldn't say that Star Fox is "clearly 100% non shmup". It has forced scrolling, arcade like gameplay, and power ups. Shmup or not, it was clearly influnced by shmups and has many shmup like elements. Star Fox 64 even has a shmup like combo system.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:01 am 


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Forced Scrolling should not be requisite for a shmup. Fantasy Zone is absolutely a shmup and it doesn't have forced scrolling. You could make a good argument for stuf like Defender and Choplifter too. And then there's the single screen shooters, like Galaga, Centipede, Space Invaders...

Contra-style games I call Run 'n' Guns. Games like Pocky and Rocky, Ikari Warriors, and maybe even Valkyrie no Densetsu could probably be called shmups and I wouldn't mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:36 am 


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Not this again.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:59 am 


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Blue Lander wrote:
Personally, I think the whole problem here is that people try to define games as shmups rather than gameplay features as shmups. Instead of looking at shmups as a black and white definition, there should be degrees of "shmuppyness". Certain games are clearly 100% full on shmups by anybody's definition (1943, Gradius, R-Type, etc), but other games have some shmup features and some non-shmup features.


This is very nicely put. In many cases the best way to define some type of thing is by way of what is called an "ostensive definition." You define the type in question saying something like "By a 'shmup' I mean videogames like THIS", as you point to 1943, Gradius, and R-Type. This sort of ostensive definition of shmups has the advantage that no one can plausibly disagree that these are in fact exemplary cases of shmups, and no one can doubt that all shmups will have much in common with these paradigm cases. The disadvantage of this sort of ostensive definition is that it does not provide clear criteria for kind-membership. It does not specify, for example, which similarities are necessary for counting as a shmup. But this is precisely what we want when we're trying to come up with the top 25 shmups of all time.
The problem is that any attempt to be very precise about what is necessary to count as a shmup is likely to look arbitrary to those who don't share our interests/goals. We want very much to distinguish shmups from games with a z-axis like Star Fox. To others this will seem unmotivated for the kinds of reasons that BrianC brings out.
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