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 Post subject: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:19 am 


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If you've been on these forums the past few years, you've no doubt seen the impressive handiwork of Perikles. The most prolific poster in this site's history, Perikles has laid waste to many a shmup, with over a hundred top-ranked scores in our high score forum. At the same time, he's contributed 1CC difficulty rankings, while also no doubt challenging the vocabulary of anyone who's read his posts. He's also helped out with the Hall of Records thread and has been very gracious and polite through the many correspondences I've had with him.

However, not too long ago, a short video started circulating, pointing out some rather dodgy dodges from some of his replays. Over the years, there have been rumblings about Perikles, and while I've always given every player here the benefit of the doubt and would prefer to follow EOJ's philosophy, Perikles's scores have such a presence here and the evidence in this case was enough that looking into the matter is justified and probably long overdue.

And while I'm sure most of you think that being the curator of the Hall of Records means a life of fast cars and faster women, it also means that sometimes I have to ask the hard questions. While I'm still not entirely convinced either way, I'd like to present the following points to consider in regard to the legitimacy of Perikles's scores that have been proposed to me by others as well as what I've discovered on my own.

1. Is it reasonable to clear so many games so quickly?
Probably the most noteworthy thing about Perikles's scores and clears is how quickly he achieves them. In some cases, it's not a tall order (scrubby Batsugun Special clear), but others are remarkably fast (three days for 1-ALL Hacha Mecha Fighter, six days for 1-ALL Tatsujin Ou, etc.). Some games he returns to, and it's hard to know exactly how long he spends on each game, but the clears come fast and they come often, even though many of these games require a lot of planning, which leads to the next point…

2. Why the strange dodges?
Players that are newer to these games tend to think that reflexes are the biggest factor to top-level play, when, as most seasoned players will probably agree, coming up with a strong route is paramount to success, and most twitch dodging is likely the result of a lack of planning, particularly so with older games (i.e., the kind Perikles spends the bulk of his time with). Perikles himself has noted that he's good at memorization and bad at execution, when the opposite seems to be apparent in many of his runs, which often demonstrate some very ballsy, yet unnecessary, maneuvers. Indeed, it's the kind of thing you'd expect of a player that hadn't spent a ton of time with a game, but that usually doesn't lead to fast clears or top scores, hundreds of times, week after week.

3. Are these replays legit?
The short clip posted above highlights some suspicious dodges. Of those, the most noteworthy is probably the Tatsujin Ou clip. It's true he had no bombs and had to do his best in that moment, but dodges that tight, at that speed, are extraordinarily difficult in a game with a hitbox of that size. You might pull that off in a run after hundreds of attempts, but probably not within your first few days with the game.

Others to watch:
Same! Same! Same!
Daioh
Raiden II
Daisenpu (particularly this boss)
Batsugun Special (particularly this dodge)

4. How do you fake a replay?
There are probably a few ways one could cheat using emulators, such as save state abuse. Another way would be playing the game at a slower speed (say, 50%), recording an INP, then replaying the INP at full speed and recording with OBS, etc. Fortunately, this can be verified by looking at the INP, and as luck would have it, Perikles has said that he does sometimes record the INP first and then record the footage later.
I messaged Perikles to ask for some of the INPs for the games mentioned above. He said he didn't have them. I asked for any INP, of the hundreds he's recorded over the years. He said they're all gone after getting a new computer. It's not a crime to delete INPs, but this struck me as especially odd given the care and fastidious nature of his posting, from his diction to his formatting to his generally thorough nature. Plus, INPs are so tiny, I don't know why you wouldn't keep your best ones around just as back-ups; I still have all of mine, some even older than Moglar.*
He then mentioned to me that he used to have a Gradius INP up on Restart Syndrome, but unfortunately, it was gone now because he posted a higher score with a video, which he said caused it to override the old one and its attached INP. I used the Wayback Machine to confirm, and yes, at one time there was an INP uploaded that is now gone. However, Restart Syndrome doesn't work like that—all scores are archived—simply click the date of a score and it'll bring you to a record of every score that user has posted for that game along with any pics, videos, or INPs. Curiously, when I checked his Gradius history, the old score and INP were gone. This means that he would have had to have manually deleted the score and INP.
*Note: Perikles first told me that he didn't have the INPs anymore because he's "been using a new computer for a while now, not having transferred any of the emulators," which sounds like the INPs are still on the old computer, then he said in a later message that he didn't keep the files, so I'm not sure if they were deleted or he just hasn't felt like moving them.

5. Why not just meet other local players and prove it?
According to some other players that live near Perikles, their requests to meet up with him and play a few credits have been politely declined.

I don't want to make it seem like this is an open-and-shut case and that Perikles should be run out of town, but all of these factors combined I think warrant consideration and should be shared with the other members here so that you can judge for yourselves. I'd also urge everyone to check out this video regarding past cases of cheating in DOOM and see how it reflects a number of the issues mentioned here, particularly regarding player movement.

Of course, I did bring the accusations up to Perikles when asking for his INPs, expecting that he'd be eager to prove his innocence considering how much work he's put into all of this, including his frequent requests to me via PM to update the Hall of Records with each new score he posted. Unfortunately, his reply, while polite, was mostly disinterest in providing any evidence and a request to just quietly remove every score. When pressed further, his next and final response was uncharacteristically typo-riddled and somewhat hostile (and eerily reminiscent of the bit about typical cheater responses at the end of the DOOM video, although still not insulting to me or anyone here), and he said he would not try to explain himself and did not wish to discuss the issue further.

Ultimately, we likely will never know if Perikles did in fact manipulate his scores in any way without a confession. If the general consensus here is that he did, I think it would be best to no longer accept his scores, but if he is the real deal like I hope he is, I would be grateful if he would change his mind and provide more solid proof of his scores so that players who doubted him can be reassured that he is as skilled as we were led to believe.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:03 am 


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I imagine it wasn't easy to come out and post that, but it's a discussion that has to happen. At this level of play scrutiny is a given. I'm sure everyone here really wants the runs to be legit; Perikles is a really nice guy. Even if he really can't produce INP files for his past achievements hopefully he will simply do a few fresh runs and send over the files. It's like a drug test; totally normal thing for high level play. If the runs are legit then he should feel extra badass that we literally couldn't believe it. Anyhow I hope for the best, but if he really doesn't want to produce the files then we should accept that and remove the scores.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:15 am 


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A very thought-provoking topic!

Almost two years ago now, I asked Perikles if he was interested in meeting up, as it’s always rare to find people sharing the same niche interest in your area. I got excited when I learnt that we are apparently living close nearby. Of course, I wasn’t driven by any proof calling intentions but simply wanted to have a chat with a fellow shmupper in person. Unfortunately, he declined and this he did so in a very polite fashion. My whole impression of him as a person is very positive. But we are not talking about his personality here. This is a different topic.

The videos you have posted leave a lot of open questions. In fact, if I didn’t know it was Perikles, I would have instantly called it fake. However, Perikles has posted proof of immense knowledge on this forum and obviously knows his games very well. It doesn’t add up to see these kinds of movements and decision makings as are exemplified in his videos. But again, being knowledgeable about games and cheating are two separate topics. When we dissect his videos, we have to be dead honest and ignore his forum posts entirely. This is not a topic against Perikles as a valuable and contributing forum member. This is only a topic about his scores and videos.

I’m generally open minded on this matter myself but I think it’s very justified to demand further proof at this point in time. Anyone could fake a video and upload it to Youtube. A player with the skill level of Perikles should have absolutely no problem with providing convincing proof and shatter all the doubts at once. This should be a very easy task. But then again, this is also what I expect from a player of his reign.

Lucky dodges happen all the time to all of us. However, core features of luck are inconsistency and most of all unpredictability. What I see in his videos is an almost consistent use of luck. His routes also seem to be off in many parts. Others do seem to be fine. The end results look like weird patchworks to me. I’m not used to this viewing experience and I watch a lot of replays.

In the end I have to conclude that the questions of the opening post are valid and this investigation is necessary. Members of this forum have been playing shmups competitively for over 15 years. Fair competition is the only basis on which this can continue. This is not a topic to call out a cheater. This is merely a topic to politely ask for answers to the questions Perikles has given us over the past few years.

Huge thanks to NTSC-J for opening this topic.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:32 am 


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NTSC-J wrote:


That batsugun special bit is very strange considering how easy it is to dodge that pattern if you route it properly. Instead it looks like he's reaction dodging it on the fly. But why would you go for a 4-all and not minimize the risk on a simple pattern right before the last boss? But it's not as bad as Tatsujin Ou, as others have pointed out in that meme video.

Maybe he treats shmups like he treats the english language? Opting for the most convoluted turns of phrase just for the sake of it.
How bizarre.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:43 am 


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NTSC-J wrote:
He then mentioned to me that he used to have a Gradius INP up on Restart Syndrome, but unfortunately, it was gone now because he posted a higher score with a video, which he said caused it to override the old one and its attached INP. I used the Wayback Machine to confirm, and yes, at one time there was an INP uploaded that is now gone. However, Restart Syndrome doesn't work like that—all scores are archived—simply click the date of a score and it'll bring you to a record of every score that user has posted for that game along with any pics, videos, or INPs. Curiously, when I checked his Gradius history, the old score and INP were gone. This means that he would have had to have manually deleted the score and INP.

I think it's plausible that Perikles has been editing his existing submissions (which you can do on Restart Syndrome) rather than submitting new scores. I don't think he has more than one existing entry for any of his Restart Syndrome submissions. His Parodius Da! submissions are consistent with that; Wayback Machine shows his original submission from when he first 1-ALL'd the game, while the current page shows the PB he got later but not that original submission. Neither of these submissions had an input file attached to begin with, so it's not like he has anything to hide in this case.

Also, what page did you check in the Wayback Machine to see that there was once a Gradius input file? I checked myself but wasn't able to find a snapshot that linked to an input file, just screenshots and videos. I ask because apparently old screenshot links like this one for Parodius Da! still work without using the Wayback Machine, so if you have a link to an input from the archived snapshot it might still work if you just tried that link.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:39 pm 


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I already voiced my opinion on Discord when gus was sharing the same video, and essentially it comes down to what people have already stated here - no matter if these are genuine or not, it doesn't change that Perikles is a valuable community member, and one of my favourite people on this forum. Also, I'm a huge fan of that quote you linked to by EOJ, this is the first time I've seen that post.

One thing I'd like to reiterate however, is that all that "these things add up" stuff kinda bothers me. I don't think it deserves even being mentioned. I'd just focus entirely on what's out there, ie. the videos in question, and not try to add mistrust from these other sources, which are all based on trying to compare one person's behavior to what you'd expect from yourself.

Honestly, I think a lot of us are familiar with not having proof of any score. Now, I don't actually participate in any score boards, so take my approach however you want, but whenever I PB in any game I dig, I do it for myself, because I like going for a higher score. I never think about how I'm going to prove that score in the future, especially if the score isn't even a world record. Of course if you're a high level player, those factors become more relevant, but if you're playing a lot of games it becomes kind of stressful to constantly have to think "this might be the run, and I need to prepare being able to document it". And in this case, all the runs in question were actually being recorded as a video, so it's pretty rare to think about ever needing any further "proof" than that. I'm not sure what an INP file is even supposed to prove? If it's a doctored/tool-assisted replay, one would assume it's based on an INP file in the first place.

Secondly, the aspect of meeting people IRL doesn't deserve to be a strike against his credibility either. If some stranger I don't know from some internet forum contacts me in private about wanting to meet me, I'd probably try to politely decline, too. I think a LOT of people in here would prefer not to meet any other forum members in private, with the only difference being that most other people don't have as many impressive scores on record. And there can be a lot of personal reasons for that, that it would be kind of impolite to dig into.
Personally I love meeting other STG fans simply due to how rare it is around here, much as Plasmo stated it, but I also realize I'm probably a minority.
Besides, I'm not sure what difference it would make. As has been stated, Perikles is obviously very familiar with these games, and even IF some of these replays were doctored, I don't think there's any doubt that he's still a skilled player, and I'm sure he'd be able to demonstrate that.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:27 pm 


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Personally, I take any score that gets posted as legitimate because cheating in these games is just pointless and pathetic (same as cheating in any game, really, but even more so for games that maybe 3 people on the planet care about). The links posted here are a little suspicious, but again I'd like to give anyone the benefit of the doubt and just assume he luckily flailed through stuff that should have killed him. It happens. Really, Perikles could prove this all wrong by just streaming a 1-ALL of Tatsujin Ou or Same Same Same for example, or at the very least posting a new .inp. It didn't take him long to clear the game from scratch, so it should take even less time to relearn what you've forgotten and do it again.

Sumez wrote:
no matter if these are genuine or not, it doesn't change that Perikles is a valuable community member

Why? I have zero respect for anyone who cheats, and the community would be better off without dishonest people poisoning the well. (I'm not directing this at Perikles, it's just a general statement, to be clear).
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:48 pm 


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Like you just said yourself. Cheating in a game that only 3 people on the planet care about is pointless.

I've never actually watched any of Perikles' replays or even paid attention to his score submissions. I just appreciate him dissecting games, talking about the underlying mechanics, and documenting home console ports, etc. Few other people on the forum contribute as much as he does.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:04 pm 


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This is a great example of why I've (temporarily? permanently?) muted all the shmup servers I've joined on Discord. I used to enjoy this genre on a base level. It's fun, as simple as that. But so many players, often bad players, are obsessed with discussing WR strats and WR replays instead of playing the games, or with complaining how they aren't good enough at their game of choice, and then there's the occasional witch hunting as evident in this thread. These are all habits that have rubbed off on me to a degree, wondering to myself "what game should I focus on?" "is it true Perikles is a cheater?" etc, when the sole reason I started playing this genre is because I want to blow up some shit in a video game. Maybe it's true that Perikles is a cheater. I don't know, and I don't even want to care.

Also, daring to demand Perikles to provide further proof when many players take the existence of a glitch at face value which allows for a score of 800+ million in Dodonpachi, without any video evidence, is a fucking hilarious case of double standards. If he were a Japanese player, you'd never demand such a thing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:26 pm 


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blossom wrote:
Also, daring to demand Perikles to provide further proof when many players take the existence of a glitch at face value which allows for a score of 800+ million in Dodonpachi, without any video evidence, is a fucking hilarious case of double standards. If he were a Japanese player, you'd never demand such a thing.

Not really. The Dodonpachi scores were done on real hardware in an arcade - how could you even cheat (arguably button macros?)? Hiding information to prevent competition is another thing entirely.

Japanese players have posted videos of scores that are way more suspicious than everything Perikles has done combined. The Donpachi counterstop and lionmanggg's Inbachi clear, for example.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:31 pm 


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They could simply lie about the score in an effort to move the goal posts, make the WR unattainable for any of the high tier players that they don't want breaking it. Without even a screenshot as evidence, there is no reason to take it on good faith the most popular games submitted to JHA don't have some amount of behind-the-scenes political bullshit.

Let's not derail the thread with the potential elitism that is the JHA, though. Let's get back to the... well, really, what is the point of this thread? Are you wanting to start a witch hunt on everyone else, too? I'm sure you could comb through the videos of other "prolific" players such as Jaimers, Emuser, iconoclast, chum, Erppo, etc etc, and given enough runs and given enough cynicism, you'll find what you're looking for. But what's the point?


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:57 pm 


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To be serious, I have seen more wild things done on various streams than what was presented in that streamable thing being offered as proof. The only one that might have raised a slightest flag of suspicion was the T-Oh clip, but dumber things have happened and miracles do happen from time to time. If we were to make a 1 minute montage of sketchy dodges across multiple games for a player, I think it would be really easy to frame someone as a possible falsificare participant. I could probably do so for myself if I wanted to with Blazeon, Aero Chimera, Saviors, EDF, maybe Dangun?

The one part in NTSC-J's post that does stick out and have me curious is the issues with INP files, without knowing what was said in those PMs between him and Perikles though there isn't much I can say with any certainty. Maybe there are issues with the INP files and he can't share them lest he end up in a lose-lose situation currently (i.e. I have lost several important screenshots and I couldn't tell you why I lost them and a lot of my INPs have been screwed when moving across two different computers over the years). I could be wrong or not understanding what has been presented already, but I'm not entirely convinced at the moment.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:14 pm 


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Reminds me of this little clip from stunfest.
Holy fucking shit, what is this? Is this TAS? WC playing SDOJ


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:40 pm 


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As it is most of the time with these kind of episodes, how you receive it tells you more about yourself and the debaters than the actual topic at hand I guess.

It's reassuring to see a stance well represented where it's discerned between the score submissions/videos on one hand, and the person behind them and their contributions that come in other forms on the other hand.

NTSC-J, you talked mostly about arcade - for completeness sake let me amend that he's also addressed every* SFC/MD/PCE shmup, retaining the runs by way of photos of the CRT screen of the score / after each final boss.
(* depending on your definition of what makes a game a shmup)


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:43 pm 


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To me it looks like the problem at hand here is not with Perikles, but with a lack of proper rules for submitting high scores.

If I understood all of this correctly, providing the .inp file would have removed the possibility of abusing save states and frame-by-frame advance (or just slowing down the game), so why wasn't this rule provided in the first place?

I get there are very few people interested in this, but for the sake of keeping the challenge "healthy" this is something which should have been thought about in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:44 pm 


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Ok say someone ever finds evidence he cheated; personally IDGAF because I was never interested in high scores and competition, the only challenges I like don't reward in figures on a board, and the only competition I enjoy is the one that comes naturally playing with friends or strangers IRL.
Therefore *shrug*

I've liked the 'articles' he posted here a lot, they're filled with useful info that was always lacking in our 'unwritten encyclopedia', so I appreciate the guy being a member here for that, I appreciate him even if he was a bit dickish to me a couple of times, and I find the elevated english meme is getting old. :P

More importantly let's be honest; this community has ceased to be the #1 gather place for scoring and competition aficionados anyway, they've all fled to private twitters and discords in recent years, so even if I understand that they still come here to update the hi-score threads, this isn't really the place to instruct a trial for potential irregularities anymore.

--

I'd like to add; that was many years ago but I've doubted BOS for a while on the french forum, because he appeared out of nowhere and started chain-posting stuff of serious skill and knowledge, at high frequency. Though he made that into a show with a partner and really I doubt something was fishy, but it was a bit surprising because no one knew him nor had seen his level of play evolve.

Maybe some people have studied all games with replays and savestates, and quickly acquired skills that are impossible to achieve in such short time playing the 'regular lone cowboy every day sitting at the same cabinet at the arcade with a handful of quarters' way, but as I've stated before I don't care how people achieve their level of mastery if they get good anyway.
Plenty of people who discovered shmups in the 2010's did that and became good anyway. Cheating is a very efficient way of learning.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:55 pm 


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The weirdest thing to me is just the part where, according to him, he's really good at routing and memorization but really bad at bullet hell and dodging.
The routing and memo is supposedly how he gets these clears of classic shmups so fast, yet the replays show the exact opposite of this.
The routing and memo is sloppy and half-assed, and he gets away with it by doing crazy absurd dodges. Something you want to avoid at all costs if you're aiming to clear something fast, since you want to avoid as much risk as possible.

Also it's quite weird to me that someone can beat stuff like Tatsujin Ou in 6 days but not be able to 1-ALL most Cave games or whatever but I dunno. Especially since the replays show he can dodge.
I guess hypothetically a reason to not play many bullet hells is because they are significantly harder to fake. Just look at the Vixynyan thing from a couple of years ago.

Still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, for reasons said above by different people, but from NTSC-J's post it doesn't seem like he's being particularity forthcoming.

Sumez wrote:
Like you just said yourself. Cheating in a game that only 3 people on the planet care about is pointless.

Yet it happens all the time. It happens on like every Steam leaderboard in the most obscure of games. It happened on this very forum.
Don't get me wrong as I agree, but you can't just dismiss it as something that doesn't happen.

Sumez wrote:
If some stranger I don't know from some internet forum contacts me in private about wanting to meet me, I'd probably try to politely decline, too.

Plasmo is hardly some stranger in this community and this is hardly some internet forum though, but I digress.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:20 pm 


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donluca wrote:
If I understood all of this correctly, providing the .inp file would have removed the possibility of abusing save states and frame-by-frame advance (or just slowing down the game), so why wasn't this rule provided in the first place?

I get there are very few people interested in this, but for the sake of keeping the challenge "healthy" this is something which should have been thought about in the first place.


WolfMAME INPs can and have been hacked to submit cheated submissions, so the presence of an INP is not necessarily an indicator of a run's authenticity. There are also plenty of PC shmups that do not support input saving replays and thus demanding them to authenticate would be impossible. I've had INPs desync on me in the past so I'm in the habit of recording actual video live when playing. Evidence of live play skill is the only thing you can definitively use to assess a player's skill and eliminate all doubt.

I'm skeptical about the cheating claims. Most of the dodges being presented are pretty reasonable, and even the most outrageous ones such as Tatsujin-Oh are not impossible per se. Someone who is retired on lives on disability due to a physical injury could potentially have a lot of free time to spend on video gaming and improves faster than you'd expect. I'd prefer to give Perikles the benefit of the doubt especially given his demonstrable knowledge of the games he's talked at length about, something that is even harder to authentically fake in my opinion.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:40 pm 


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I hope for his own sake that his runs are the real deal because otherwise what a colossal waste of time he's spent on this and wasted everyone else's time as well. "Strange" plays aren't unheard of and Perikles playing doesn't quite look unreasonably good in terms of reading or movement, it's extremely advanced at times up there with the best of the best, but not unreasonable enough to call it 100% TAS or something. The problem I always get with his replays, is his complete disregard of strategy and common sense. I've been playing Same Same Same lately and his replay is no help at all because he hasn't actually learned the game whatsoever. It doesn't look anything resembling the other replays I've been studying. The final checkpoint is the nail in the coffin here, he hasn't learned how to do this checkpoint yet he still got it on his first try. He simply does a lot of weird nonsense that the game has been designed to make you avoid doing over the course of learnign the game. The game is designed kind of like trial and error, it is almost unthinkable to clear this game the way Perikles is playing it, but, that's the keyword here... "almost". That's why I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I really don't like the idea of damning someone who is just misunderstood. I don't like the idea of enabling a cheater either, but until I have more experience with more of the games Perikles has been clearing I remain neutral. It's worth noting though that his replays are always weird whenever I play a game he's cleared and I look at his replay, it is not helpful because he doesn't play the game in a sensible way.

I completely disagree with the OP's logic, as he is obviously viewing this from skill-less lens (Perikles "dodging" isn't strange, he is merely "capable", the problem is his lack of strategy) but the premise that Perikles is cheating could sadly very well be true. This collection of clips only undermines the argument. Seeing the Same Same Same part only makes me scratch my head, wondering who the hell thought it was a good idea to include that. There is absolutely nothing TAS-like about that at all. His Movements and reads looks like what one would expect from an average STG player. Completely ordinary. The only strange part is the beginning of this clip where he makes a nonsensical decision, but the clip just keeps going for no particular reason. Let's not undermine the argument. I think that is what we should stick to, his lack of routing that simply shouldn't be working so often. You can't just say every tiem "oh that was a huge fluke that run, that's how he got away without routes", when he has such an insane number of clears. that is the problem, not "sick dodges". You're not clearing Same Same Same with sick dodges. It is NOT happening.

Just compare Perikles replay with others in any game and his will seemingly always be the unhelpful one... Is this just his way of playing? It just doesn't feel like an intelligent person would play shmups this way. I could name so many obvious basic mistakes in Same Same Same from him, that shouldn't feasibly happen if you've "died and learned" as the game wants you to" and I don't even have a 1-all yet and haven't been playing it for that long.

If he is not cheating it is completely uncharacteristic of him to show disinterest at these accusations however..
He has been around and been basically by far the biggest presence around here, sharing so much about the games. It is clear that he has so much passion, and has by far the widest experience in multiple games. He clearly wasn't disinterested before when he kept churning out clears and making lengthy posts about everything. His comments on his own videos also shows that he was never disinterested before. So then logically I don't see why he wouldn't want to defend himself, and I do think people will generally be reasonble about this (sure, some people are always gonna be idiots, but whatever). What I mean is, even if his way of defending himself isn't "perfect" (like lets say replicating a clear live in person) I hope noone is saying that would have to be his defense. Just simply starting a stream and playing around for a while would clearly show whether his gameplay on the stream matches what we see in his videos. And I'm saying his gameplay, not his results. It's not easy to just replicate clears again. Just playing around and letting us see how he plays, how he dodges, would tell experienced players whether his videos are reasonable or not. For example, if he were to show himself play Daioh's final boss the way he does on his video, I would be very interested to see how often he could manage to do that again, since he said in his video comments that he did it that way to get 500k extra points. He couldnt do that and get away with it unless he has some degree of success with this. So that would be a good start to show that on stream. Also, that one hilarious part of Tatsujin Ou is another thing I'd like to see him fool around with on a stream. Setting up a stream nowadays shouldn't really be a problem for most people in Germany, I don't think? So, if he is really legit, the most damning thing he could possibly do is showing disinterest and just not bothering to even try to prove himself. If he's cheating, however, he would think of it as the best shot he has to get away with it. That's why I think it's a really suspicious move. Anyone who's actually not cheating would normally take some kind of step, even if small, to prove themselves, unless they don't care about teh accusations. Given everything he's done around here I don't see why he wouldn't care about the accusiations, so yeah, I hope my logic on this is clear. If he's legit which I hope he is I hope he shows up and clears his name in some way, starts communicating about it, because what he's done is really amazing and I want to believe that his skill and passion is for real. If this is all just a misunderstanding then I at least would feel awfully silly after all of this and that would be the best possible scenario imo.

Gonna read the rest of the posts now.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:14 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
WolfMAME INPs can and have been hacked to submit cheated submissions, so the presence of an INP is not necessarily an indicator of a run's authenticity. There are also plenty of PC shmups that do not support input saving replays and thus demanding them to authenticate would be impossible. I've had INPs desync on me in the past so I'm in the habit of recording actual video live when playing. Evidence of live play skill is the only thing you can definitively use to assess a player's skill and eliminate all doubt.


Thanks for clarifying that up!


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:21 pm 


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Mostly echoing others' thoughts here, but not only do I consider Perikles a valuable member of our community regardless of how his replays are done, I also don't believe this community currently has a sufficiently airtight method of exposing fakers when they exist. Until we have such a system - assuming we even decide there is a need for one - there is little point in going through with anything like a witch hunt. As it stands, we simply don't have enough information to go off of.

Can we really expect Perikles to give us a live recording of every single shooter he's ever played? Not everyone is exmosquito...

That being said, I would like to see him clear at least one shooter live, even if it ultimately wouldn't prove much.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:31 pm 


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WelshMegalodon wrote:
That being said, I would like to see him clear at least one shooter live, even if it ultimately wouldn't prove much.

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:29 pm 


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Perikles is a good boi.

NTSC-J wrote:
5. Why not just meet other local players and prove it?
According to some other players that live near Perikles, their requests to meet up with him and play a few credits have been politely declined.


Hey I wouldn't meet up with you fucking psychopaths either. Last thing I wanna do is get raped, murdered, and eaten after showing up to a dark parking lot to play Touhou.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:30 pm 


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I'd just like to restate that this isn't a "witch hunt", and the people insisting that it is are causing far more drama than the actual topic itself.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:32 pm 


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donluca wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
WolfMAME INPs can and have been hacked to submit cheated submissions, so the presence of an INP is not necessarily an indicator of a run's authenticity.
Thanks for clarifying that up!


I always had a feeling they might be hackable to submit cheated scores, but I actually only learned recently about a known case where this was proven to have been done by analyzing the INPs: http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15860
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:34 pm 


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For what it's worth, the admin of this very forum has been saying INP files can't be 100% trusted forever. It's also why MARP even bothers to personally review submissions.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:12 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:

Hey I wouldn't meet up with you fucking psychopaths either. Last thing I wanna do is get raped, murdered, and eaten after showing up to a dark parking lot to play Touhou.


I've met multiple members that post here and haven't turned anyone into a lampshade.

Yet.
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:14 pm 


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I got my eye on you, Stevens. I'll not fall for your anglers lure!
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:21 pm 


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Despatche wrote:
I'd just like to restate that this isn't a "witch hunt", and the people insisting that it is are causing far more drama than the actual topic itself.

I think I see where you're coming from, but permit me to remark that setting off with "The Problem with Perikles" as a thread title is not conducting it in a particularly prudent way either.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem with Perikles
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:36 pm 


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That's one of the better ways to put it, actually. The "norm" is to make the topic title "<x> is a cheater" or "We need to get rid of <x>".
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