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 Post subject: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:28 pm 



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Are there great shmups out there that don't require memorization? Is that the same as asking if there are great shmups that are really easy?


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:34 pm 


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You're going to want to look in the direction of Rogue style - Steredenn is a good one that has been popping up around here lately.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:57 pm 



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Anything on PCB?


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:02 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:52 pm 


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Vulgus, Exed Exes (I think), and Zanac are your answers. Can't memorize a game with no predetermined enemy waves.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:04 pm 



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Look into versus shmups.
PoDD and PoFV in the Touhou series, Twinkle Star Sprites, possibly Change Air Blade.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:32 pm 


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Parsec47, Twinkle Star Sprites/PODD/POFV/RMG

A lot of arena shooters with non-determined enemy patterns too. I think the way Assault Android Cactus does it is great, it's not truly random as enemies are determined by your precise position and powerups by time. But until you have a really solid route things effectively look random and change on the fly. I guess Zanac is similar in a way?


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:47 pm 



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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:05 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
Is that the same as asking if there are great shmups that are really easy?


It's the exact opposite.

As long as you can memorize something, i.e. predict something, it will always be easier than something that is out of your control.

It's not necessarily tied to difficulty, but it commonly goes hand in hand.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:25 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
Are there great shmups out there that don't require memorization? Is that the same as asking if there are great shmups that are really easy?

one of the trickiest questions I've ever seen around here :lol:

if a shmup doesn't require memorization it's too easy by default
that said, said shmup will never be considered a great one

in the case of shmups that can be defeated without previous memorization, it's all up to the player and his/her skill level
then again, memorization could be applied to different aspects of a game, e.g. the scoring system
something like Harmful Park certainly fits the answer to the OP's question
playing for score, however, turns it into a COMPLETELY different thing altogether
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:07 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:16 pm 


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Kollision wrote:
shmupsrocks wrote:
if a shmup doesn't require memorization it's too easy by default


Only if by memorisation you mean any kind of prior knowledge. You don't need memorisation to play battle garegga, ddp1, doj, ketsui, etc, you only need to know roughly what's coming (ie, "this level has that bit with the turrets", etc) and how to handle it (ie, to have practised each bit and/or have a solid general strategy).


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:20 pm 


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Plasmo wrote:
shmupsrocks wrote:
Is that the same as asking if there are great shmups that are really easy?


It's the exact opposite.

As long as you can memorize something, i.e. predict something, it will always be easier than something that is out of your control.

It's not necessarily tied to difficulty, but it commonly goes hand in hand.


Isnt this why Raizing games are so beloved (among many other reasons)?

Memorization can only take you so far, every run will be different and require adaptive and precise decisions. Being prepared is o ly half the challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:27 pm 



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Strikers1945guy wrote:
Isnt this why Raizing games are so beloved (among many other reasons)?

Memorization can only take you so far, every run will be different and require adaptive and precise decisions. Being prepared is o ly half the challenge.


Is that a Raizing attribute in particular? Although you still can't do well without memorization?


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:13 am 


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If you don't want to make a conscious effort to memorize, pick something with infinite continues, no checkpoints, and have fun.

That's what makes shumps so great. You can have fun playing them at any level of skill, any level of effort, and any level of knowledge.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:17 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:46 am 


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Gun.Smoke - memorization may help somewhat, but improvisation makes up the bulk of the challenge.

parsec47 - stages are randomly generated.

rRootage - also randomly generated, but only the far-right column of challenges.

Nomltest - endless survival game, learn the couple of different patterns the game can throw at you and have fun.

Also, what Lyv and Zaarock said.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:17 am 


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Once you've built up your skills in other games, if you have sharp enough reflexes, there are a lot of bullet hell games that you clear on normal quite quickly.

I reckon those are the games you should be looking at, anything with slower bullets that gives you time to react on the fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:14 pm 


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Warning Forever is a little different each time, due to the way the game builds upon each successive boss/level. Not easy, in the traditional sense, but as a time/score attack game, it's fun.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:40 pm 


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Hangs a bit on the edge of the genre as a twin-stick shooter (albeit almost entirely shmup-influenced), but Monolith.

Granted, you can and will memorize bite-sized pieces of the game, but it's a much smaller component in saving your ass.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:30 pm 


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To give a more serious response, most STGs have some degree of memorization required for a clear.
In terms of scoring they all require memorization to a more or lesser degree.
What is great for some, and frustrating for others with games like Battle Garegga and (to a lesser extent) Batrider is that the games are highly random and so you have to react more to what is happening rather than rely on set movement strategies.
What you learn to score in Garegga for an example is a method of how things should be done. You will still have to adjust on the fly though as no run will be looking the same. This is what makes it so great in my opinion.
Most games have a certain variance of randomness, it's just much more pronounced in Garegga.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:52 pm 


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It's easy, too, to think a game is a memorizer when it's really just that general skills have to be leveled up a little to cope. I'd say games like R-Type, which require the player to perfect passages, are memorizers. Horizontals in general I think tend towards that. But someone mentioned most manics as being only lightly memorizey (in the way that, say, Super Mario but not Lost Levels is), and I'd agree with that.

BTW I think a lot of my top shmups list are arcade games that don't require a bunch of memorization. Like give Under Defeat a shot; I think that's a good one that's mostly about general tactics.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:10 am 


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I wasn't expecting this question to be asked seriously! It's not an easy question to answer correctly, as the amount of games period that don't use patterns are few and far between, to the point where many of these games are labelled with their own special genre. It's also a coin toss if a given game can be called "great".

As far as shmups, Monolith is a recent game that seems to be in the running for this. Geometry Wars is another such game. There are a number of older games that didn't have explicit patterns but had certain things happening every time you got to a given point. The Vulgus/1942/Exed Exes trilogy is like this. There are also games like Time Pilot that are difficult to define. Basically all of Kenta Cho's games have randomly created patterns.

eebrozgi wrote:
Hangs a bit on the edge of the genre as a twin-stick shooter (albeit almost entirely shmup-influenced), but Monolith.

"twin-stick shooters" are shmups by default. Certain people try to remove them from the genre because they don't personally like them, and at one point the success of Geometry Wars led to a lot of these games coming out.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:43 am 


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ok, it fits this thread better

Quote:
So by memorizing he means "memorize the whole queue of several thousand inputs that you do with pressing buttons" yeah? So every run is totally identical?

Quote:
I mean people understand "memorizing" differently.

Like, after 35 hours of DOJ i remember what mostly happens where and how and what to do (like keeping in mind "traps" and whom to remove first etc), but if you ask me how many helicopters appear there or how many bullets they fire at you, i'm not a rain man... (which means, will i continue to fail? haha)
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:19 pm 



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I'm not necessarily asking for games without any patterns. I mean are there shmups you can be successful at by reaction alone without memorization? Games without patterns must fall into this category but what about games with patterns? Surely memorization would give you an advantage in any patterned game but which games don't require it for success? Bullet hell games as mentioned above is probably a good example of this.

This question stems from my desire to not have to consciously study a game I want to get good at but to get better just by playing.


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:41 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
my desire to not have to consciously study a game I want to get good at


Sorry, it doesn't work that way for shooters any more than it does for anything else in life. Maybe up to Stage 4 or 5, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone that achieved a 1CC just by dicking around for 100 hours.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:33 pm 


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There are shmups that are designed to be easier or more accessible, but they're not as popular because (for obvious reasons) easy games are often unsatisfying for people who are already big fans of a genre famous for difficulty and memorization.

A lot of rail shooters tend to be easier to beat without relying on lots of memorization, like the Star Fox or Panzer Dragoon series. I'm also a big fan of Space Harrier as a more accessible arcade game.

Steel Empire is often criticized for having a health bar and being too easy but I think it's a fun and visually interesting game with a very unique style.

Shin'en Multimedia made a lot of shooters for various consoles that are very accessible and don't require too much memorization. They made Iridion 3D (a Star-Fox-style rail shooter), Iridion 2, Nanostray, Nanostray 2 (all vertical scrollers), and Nano Assault and Nano Assult Neo (twin-stick shooters) that are pretty fun. These games are usually challenging enough to be entertaining and require a few tries to advance past the first few levels, but they have mechanics like health bars that make them more forgiving, and include passwords or save features allowing you to play them one level at a time in short bursts.


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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:13 pm 


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WelshMegalodon wrote:
but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone that achieved a 1CC just by dicking around for 100 hours.

That describes most of the 1CCs I've gotten, so I guess if you want games where you can do that you can just check out my 1CC list linked in my sig. Just not the Psikyo games.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:41 pm 


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shmupsrocks wrote:
I mean are there shmups you can be successful at by reaction alone without memorization? Games without patterns must fall into this category but what about games with patterns?

Only very easy games that you could theoretically beat on your very first try ever are like this. This also only applies to survival; scoring requires memorization in most cases.

shmupsrocks wrote:
This question stems from my desire to not have to consciously study a game I want to get good at but to get better just by playing.

Nothing in life works this way, nor should it. Talent is not skill, but memorization is. Traditionally, gamer types don't understand this, and they whine about how "unfair" it is because they want to put in very little effort, totally disregarding how unfair talent actually is.
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 Post subject: Re: Great shmups without memorization
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:08 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
That describes most of the 1CCs I've gotten, so I guess if you want games where you can do that you can just check out my 1CC list linked in my sig. Just not the Psikyo games.


I'd love to know what shmups gods allowed you to clear Battlantis and X-Multiply in this manner, so I can start praying to them.
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