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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:20 pm 


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excited to read the lists
it will be the first year I won't participate since the 10th annual vote in 2013 - for 2018 I only sunk time into muchi muchi pork and progear (again) and my list would be exactly the same as last year. I finally got that mmp 1.0 1CC though ;) and still working on knocking zerst's score off my board

I did play a little bit of zero ranger, black bird, neko navy, and momoiro underground but I barely scratched the surface on any of them. maybe I'll get some more play time in during 2019 ^_^
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:14 pm 


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Bydobasher : I am in the process of sorting out my own list and writing the comments, and I will probably have ZeroRanger in it too. A shame it isn't compatible with your setup, it's a very interesting experience. Hope you'll be able to play it eventually.
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Aside 2: I am this close to 'getting' Milestone. I've played their games on-and-off for years but with little commitment. Radirgy brings me back more than others. An HM mention for Radirgy? Maybe!

Hehe, go for it! I think Herr Schatten's comment earlier about why it's in his list is very accurate. The flow from one ABS-net to another just feels right, and it pushes you to play agressively throughout most of the stages.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:02 pm 


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Bydobasher wrote:
Well, your list inspired to me try Gorf again, for the first time in years. I love the variety in that game! Shooting the core of the mothership is so satisfying.

Also, I had a game of Phelios, and I'd forgotten how much fun it is. When I think of Namco shmups from that era, I always think of Dragon Spirit/Saber first. I'm not sure why I don't think of Phelios too. It's got a different feel, since you don't have the shooting/bombing mechanic. But the charge shot and the special weapons are fun. The music is so dramatic, and everything looks good. It's even got some kind of "Mode 7" rotation and scaling effects! I'm glad you included this one.

And I see you replaced the extra Ordyne with X-Multiply. I'm a big fan of late '80s Irem, but this one I only came to appreciate quite recently. Now I love it though.


Gorf is so cool! I remember playing that and Time Pilot on Coleco a lot at a buddy's place during the NES era. Phelios is also so overlooked. I've played the Genesis port the most, and while it does look more and more rushed the farther you get into it (the fire boss looks particularly bad), it's a solid shmup. I'm not sure why it never gets much attention. And when I first saw that first parallax scrolling every direction, I was floored. It's so dramatic- combined with the music, it really feels like you've launched off of a cliff and into a huge adventure!
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:02 am 


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louisg wrote:
Gorf is so cool!

It really is. I've been playing it since dannycheeto posted his list, and I'm enjoying it very much. I appreciate how you have some vertical movement; it enables you to get around some enemies and/or shots in a way that is not possible when you're confined to one dimension. I also appreciate how you can only have one shot on screen, but you can cancel your shot by firing again; and those short, fast shots are useful when defending against enemies who approach you. The variety of stages keeps everything fresh, and the explosion of the flag ship is the "Gradius V boss explosion" for 1981. I'm having so much fun with it, I might include it on my own list!

louisg wrote:
And when I first saw that first parallax scrolling every direction, I was floored. It's so dramatic- combined with the music, it really feels like you've launched off of a cliff and into a huge adventure!

Yes, exactly!


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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:50 pm 


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Bydobasher wrote:
[quote="louisg]
And when I first saw that first parallax scrolling every direction, I was floored. It's so dramatic- combined with the music, it really feels like you've launched off of a cliff and into a huge adventure!
[/quote]
Yes, exactly![/quote]


I was watching video of Phelios to remind myself of things I liked about it, and one thing that still stands out today is the rider chase segment. I liked how tricky it is- it has a different feel to other shmups' fast-scrolling parts because it's about exploiting that simple AI to get the riders to crash. I'm surprised it hasn't been copied much. I'm also a big fan of the parts where the archers run onto the ledge, and you push them back with each shot. It's got its shortcomings, but there's a lot to like there.

Re: Gorf: I think we tend to forget about all the scoot n shoots in the wake of Space Invaders. Most are forgettable, but there are some real gems. I love the 2600 version of Demon Attack, for example. I guess we forget about them because Galaga came along and introduced so much depth to the subgenre that everything else seemed thin as paper by comparison. But, there are still great games that deserve a little more attention than they have gotten in the last 30 years, IMO.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:18 am 


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Herr Schatten wrote:
Bydobasher wrote:
As for Gradius Gaiden, I still haven't learned to like that one; I prefer the original, II, III and V to that game, and maybe even the GameBoy titles!

The GameBoy titles are stellar, very underrated.

I played them both in recent days, and they're better than I remembered. The first one is a bit deceiving, because it borrows a lot from Gradius and Gradius II initially, but it's got more new material the farther you get into it. I never did like the black and white visuals of the Gameboy; that said, the graphics in Nemesis are finely drawn. And the music is as good as ever. The best part about the sequel on GB is that it's so very original -- maybe more than any other Gradius sequel(?). Bosses are different, stages are different, music is different.... I think I prefer the first GB game, but they're both well made.

louisg wrote:
I was watching video of Phelios to remind myself of things I liked about it, and one thing that still stands out today is the rider chase segment. I liked how tricky it is- it has a different feel to other shmups' fast-scrolling parts because it's about exploiting that simple AI to get the riders to crash. I'm surprised it hasn't been copied much. I'm also a big fan of the parts where the archers run onto the ledge, and you push them back with each shot. It's got its shortcomings, but there's a lot to like there.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that and I had a hard time with it when I came across it recently. Just now I got through it though, and well into the fire level before succumbing to the enemy. The game has such a distinctive style, in its Greek setting, its visual effects, and in "set pieces" like that chase segment. So glad dannycheeto reminded me of this game :)


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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:38 am 


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One more week of voting! I gotta make my list in the next few days... I've been playing Psyvariar Delta non-stop, but i don't know if it'd be fair to vote for a game I haven't even unlocked all the stages for.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:24 pm 


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Can confirm that voting has now entered the final week. There's been more activity than last year so far, which is promising, albeit not quite enough yet to expect to hit a passable minimum.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:21 pm 


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Same post from last year:
Square_Air wrote:
Shepardus wrote:
go vote.


I know there's people skimming this thread that are eligible to vote, get on writing up that list before time runs out. There's plenty of you active that are holding out on us, get to work.Image


My list has also changed a considerable amount from last year. The two big additions are none other than Out Zone and R-Type, 2 games that many people consider to be timeless classics, and I'd have to agree with that notion. While the scoring mechanics can be a little janky/not exactly my tastes (Zero Wing ships in Out Zone & checkpoint milking in R-Type), the level design in both of these games is superb. R-Type may have a few more issues, but the force mechanic is so compelling and well used throughout the game that I can forgive a few missteps.

The 3 new games that made it on my HM list (Gun.Smoke, Judgement Silversword, and 2hu 9: Phantasmagoria Of Flower View) are all pretty interesting. Gun.Smoke is old as dirt, but is still a blast to play. Seeing as how much I love Robotron, I probably should have played this one sooner. Silversword is something I just cleared yesterday and am quite impressed by. The slowdown definitely hurts this game, and I wish the shield was even half as defensively useful as it is in Eschatos, but there's too many great areas and bosses to not include this. POFV is a really odd duck since I would never include this game for the single player, but i'm actually including this one for the multiplayer. I'm not the biggest fan of the AI TAS dodging, but playing this game with a friend really changed how I thought of this game. I was going to just drop this after Lunatic + Extra, but after enough time I've come to appreciate this head to head shmup style, at least when playing against humans. I'll have to give Twinkle Star Sprites and PODD a try sometime this year.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:11 am 


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Quick question: Are we supposed to split up label variants? Like DOJ White Label and Black Label?
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 am 


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Mark_MSX wrote:
Quick question: Are we supposed to split up label variants? Like DOJ White Label and Black Label?

From the rules:

Nifty wrote:
05. Please be specific when voting for ports, or when different games share the same title. Some versions are similar enough to count as the same game, but others are counted separately due to significant differences (e.g. Gradius III or UN Squadron). In some cases, both region and platform may be important. Votes that do not specify platform will be assumed to be for the arcade/other original release, or in isolated cases the most well-known version (e.g. [Zanac] will be considered a vote for Zanac NES). Be careful with notation too, as [Slap Fight MD] is not considered the same thing as [Slap Fight (MD)]. If in doubt, it's always better to specify (or ask/check a previous years' results; last years' are here). I've also started keeping a more convenient guide, which I will be gradually updating/improving. Also note that you are still free to include more than one game version on a ballot if you so desire. More obscure releases/arranges/ports/etc may not yet be covered and will be evaluated when and if they crop up.

The pastebin link ("more convenient guide") is what you'd be interested in.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:56 pm 


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I noticed that a couple of voters have included Daioh in their lists. Is there any reason why you prefer this to its own remake Shienryu?


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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:30 pm 


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Shienryu has too many bullets (and the medals don't help visibility...) and the SFX are way too blown out, are my two significant gripes. I also don't like most of the music that much, compared to Daioh which has some very good music IMO.

That said I do like Shienryu, but I think it's not as good as Daioh overall.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:37 pm 


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Shienryu is going to be on my upcoming ballot. I never played more than a credit or two of Daioh so I can't compare. I think the game itself is really quite fun and adventurous. It took a lot of effort and learning to survive some deliciously tough stages to clear the game (I never made the 2ALL).

Definitely right on the music being one of the weaker aspects. It doesn't help that you listen to the same boring 4-bar loop while fighting the octopus boss for 12 minutes. :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:32 am 


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edited my list, had to bump Ikaruga off for Otomedius G
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:36 am 


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Herr Schatten wrote:
I noticed that a couple of voters have included Daioh in their lists. Is there any reason why you prefer this to its own remake Shienryu?


I didn't vote for Daioh, though I considered it strongly. I've always liked Daioh very much, but I never got into Shienryu. Music is definitely a big part of that. But there's something in the game itself . . . I just find Daioh more engaging somehow -- and considerably so. Also, the final boss in Daioh is one of my favourites. I don't think Shienryu ever excited me in the same way -- though I do admittedly have much less experience with it.


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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:29 am 


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I can't stand Daioh.
Shienryu on the other hand is quite amusing.

iconoclast wrote:
edited my list, had to bump Ikaruga off for Otomedius G

I don't know why, but this brings a weird smile to my face :)
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:40 pm 


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I enjoy both Daioh and Shienryu a lot, but there're a few parameters that I find more appealing in Daioh:

- One loop in Daioh takes about 20 minutes whereas one in Shienryu lasts roughly 30. That is, if you don't die repeatedly on the final boss in the latter, which happened frequently to me in the second loop. As such, a 2-ALL in Daioh is considerably closer to a 1-ALL than a 2-ALL in Shienryu in terms of invested time. And for games with frantic action, I usually prefer a moreso taut structure.

- I personally find that Daioh gets more exciting a lot earlier on for the reasons that trap15 delineated - in Daioh, you have fewer bullets which generally move faster which lends itself for more extemporaneous action than Shienryu's methodical nature.

- If you play the US version of Daioh (which is what I did), you have a grand tactical element at your disposal what with having all weapons/bombs available at all times. This is never a possibility in Shienryu, meaning that boss fights will last a lot longer unless you change your weapons at the perfect moments.

- Daioh's difficulty progression tends to be more even than Shienryu's. Daioh is harder than Shienryu for the most parts, but those parts that are difficult in Shienryu easily overshadow the tough sections in either game, which is jarring. As I've mentioned, the final boss in loop 2 of Shienryu is aggravating.

- Daioh looks and sounds like a (particularly advanced) console 16-bit game which is almost always preferable to me irregardless of the fact that Shienryu is likewise a gorgeous game.

- Both games are silly when played for score (or outright broken if you are serious about it in the case of Daioh), but Shienryu's colossal bonus on the final boss depending on which weapon you've used has to be the most idiotic choice they could've come up with.
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 Post subject: Re: 16th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:40 pm 


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I wanted to vote for Psyvariar Delta (or rather, Revision) badly, but I feel like I'm not familiar enough with the game to do so (haven't unlocked X-D, for one). It's hard to see me -not- voting for it next year. The game is truly wonderful.

If I come back to my ballot in the next few days I might bump Game Tengoku out of HMs. I am pretty familiar with the game from the Saturn port, but the Cruis'n Mix just elevates the game a lot in my eyes. All the characters, from jokey to cool, the different modes. It's a game that deserves more respect (and people actually playing it - which is what you CAN do now that you don't need to shell out a fortune for the Saturn port and its modes).
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