input lag sensitivity tester

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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Calamity wrote:I've no objections against autofire on a separate build, I just don't get why that's required... is it just to keep the button pressed all the time? isn't that lazy? Am I missing something?
You need to play more shmups to understand why autofire (or the lack thereof) is a major issue.

Basically, there are a lot of older games where you either get only 1 bullet per button tap, so it's extremely aggravating to get a decent damage rate going without mashing frantically, or there is little-to-no scoring incentive not to be firing constantly throughout the game. Worse, are games which combine the two, or which don't have a cap on the autofire rate, meaning someone who is able to hammer the shot button rapidly or use an autofire circuit has a massive advantage over someone who does not (Darius Gaiden and Sine Mora are examples of this bad design where the autofire rate for holding shot is relatively low, and the game rewards mashing or an autofire button with a ridiculously fast shot speed that affects game balance).

Manual fire in shmups sucks. It's unnecessary wear on the buttons, as well as on your hands and fingers, and is especially stupid when the game is about piloting a modern or futuristic vehicle that has machine guns or lasers, etc.

You do not want to be playing 30-60 minute runs of games where you have to consistently hammer one button constantly. This is different from fighting games or beat em ups where timing attacks, joystick motions + button inputs matter for attacks, etc. In a shmup, you are often hammering the shot button as rapidly and consistently as possible.

Every competent modern shmup has built-in autofire, and for good reason. Home and console ports of games that did not have autofire regularly add autofire for convenience:

* Basically every CAVE game ever has autofire built in. Some of the older ones do not have it enabled by default, but can be enabled on button 3 in the BIOS (and every single serious player or competent arcade will have button 3 autofire enabled).

* Batsugun's revamped Special Version includes a dedicated autofire button. The port also has autofire for both regular and special version as far as I am aware.

* The Giga Wing series does not have autofire on the PCB versions, but requires unusually low, comfortable tap speeds to max out shot rate, so it is a rare exception of a shmup that isn't all that bad to play without autofire. Even still, all the ports added autofire buttons for convenience, which is appreciated.

* Deathsmiles does not have an autofire rapid button for Shot, but that's because it would have greatly increased the number of buttons needed to play the game (it uses a Left / Right / Bomb system). Even then, you spend most of the time in boss fights holding the shot button for Laser, and the home ports allow you to set up extra buttons for Rapid Shot, so it is very comfortable to play on both PCB and home ports.

* Later Raizing shmups all had autofire built in the PCB versions (except for Brave Blade, which did reward mashing the shot button with faster speeds).

* Pretty much every home port of Parodius as far as I know has autofire buttons, as with many Gradius home ports aside from the NES ones.

If you want to experience terrible game design and why button mashing as a mechanic is awful design, please play:

* Blazing Star - A good game with autofire setup, but annoying as hell to play without, since you get a more damaging shot when you tap fast enough. Slow tapping produces a weaker version of main shot, so it is a pain to be able to play for an extended period on a PCB where the cabinet does not have a third button set as an autofire for button 1.

* Eight Forces - Same as Blazing Star, each character has a weak shot by holding shot button (literally so weak as to be useless), and a slightly less crappy strong shot by mashing the button (where you fire only one "strong" shot per press). Generally an awful game, but it's barely playable with autofire in MAME and essentially unplayable garbage without.

* Thunder Blaster - Literally, Autofire: The Shmup. The central mechanic involves mashing the button as fast as possible, with the faster you mash, the stronger and wider your shot. Mashing also charges up your reusable "bomb". It's amusing, but frankly gimmicky and probably not well regarded. Would have been better if the bomb had become more of the focus of the game (rechargeable over time similar to Giga Wing perhaps).

Basically, nobody who plays shmups seriously or even semi-seriously would want to play an older shmup with a MAME build that doesn't include convenient autofire options. It just isn't fun to hammer the same button all game long. For reference, the autofire options found in Shmupmame and the MAME 0.197 build Shepardus built are essentially the gold standards for autofire/custom button options.

This info could also apply to run 'n guns where button mashing is expected of players all game long (although I wouldn't play with autofire on a game like Sunset Riders or Moo Mesa where there is specifically a rapid fire powerup you can get).
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mycophobia
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by mycophobia »

i have a desk job which already puts me at high risk for RSI. no reason not to use autofire in any context outside of perhaps track and field games (which I don't typically play anyway).
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mycophobia
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by mycophobia »

also I'm not sure why everyone immediately jumped all over Bananamatic for this completely innocuous thread
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donluca
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by donluca »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:* Blazing Star - A good game with autofire setup, but annoying as hell to play without, since you get a more damaging shot when you tap fast enough. Slow tapping produces a weaker version of main shot, so it is a pain to be able to play for an extended period on a PCB where the cabinet does not have a third button set as an autofire for button 1.
Actually, I feel comfortable playing Blazing Star without autofire, I don't have to mash that much, especially if you "piano" the fire button with 2-3 fingers.

I agree with every other point though. Gigawing is basically almost autofire, you have to push the fire button every, like, 1 second? That's pretty relaxed.

On the other hand, there are other games where every time you push the fire button it shoots one. single. shot. Ugh. That really makes the game "who can mash harder wins", which is pretty dumb, imho.

If anyone is interested I can look into integrating an autofire patch into the latest GroovyMAME.

Bear in mind you can already get autofire in GM by using cheats: lots of shooters have a cheat to enable autofire.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

donluca wrote:Actually, I feel comfortable playing Blazing Star without autofire, I don't have to mash that much, especially if you "piano" the fire button with 2-3 fingers.
Which ships do you play as? Each ship differs in how fast you need to mash to trigger the power shot with some being easier than others. The only ship I enjoy playing on PCB is the ship with the straight shot/piercing power shot/sword & shield charge shots, mainly because it's bizarre: unlike all the other ships the power shot is WAY weaker than the slower tap speed shot.
donluca wrote:Bear in mind you can already get autofire in GM by using cheats: lots of shooters have a cheat to enable autofire.
The autofire settings under the stock cheat menu are really limited and are reset when you quit the game AFAIK. If you can't setup Custom Buttons, then it's annoying/impossible to setup autofire properly for games with a charge shot, where to setup you need Button 1 no auto and Custom Button 1 autofire. I haven't used a version of MAME that doesn't support autofire natively (i.e., not hidden away in the cheat menu) in forever, because ugh, no thanks.
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donluca
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by donluca »

I use the one with the wide green shot, can't remember the name. The shots turn orange/red when pressing fast.

And, yeah, with cheats you can't configure separate non-turbo buttons.
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Despatche
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by Despatche »

<insert harping on GroovyMAME here>

Autofire isn't an issue at all. It's as simple as splitting between autofire and no autofire. Most people outside of Japan are gonna use autofire because there's no real competition outside of Japan, which is why I rarely split for it.

Once again, custom buttons are vital. There is no joy in having to fiddle with a separate autofire toggle key.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Despatche wrote:Once again, custom buttons are vital. There is no joy in having to fiddle with a separate autofire toggle key.
Yeah, autofire via a toggle sucks to play for games with separate tap shot and hold shot functionality.
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Steamflogger Boss
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Auto-fire for life.

Also lol.
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OmegaFlareX
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by OmegaFlareX »

donluca wrote:The bullshit MAME builds have great popularity because they have features people have been asking for ages, like autofire, and MAME devs stubbornly refuse to put in.
I only skimmed over the rest of the thread so sorry if someone else already corrected you, but autofire has been in stock MAME for 2 years now. You have to enable cheats, and it's under that menu. It's copy/pasted code from the late UIFX branch, and extremely basic. It also doesn't save any of the settings. But it's there and it's better than nothing.
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donluca
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by donluca »

OmegaFlareX wrote:I only skimmed over the rest of the thread so sorry if someone else already corrected you, but autofire has been in stock MAME for 2 years now. You have to enable cheats, and it's under that menu. It's copy/pasted code from the late UIFX branch, and extremely basic. It also doesn't save any of the settings. But it's there and it's better than nothing.
Sorry, I had to specify I meant in baseline, "vanilla" MAME. You still need the Cheat file which is not provided with MAME to take advantage of autofire on *some* games. You can find the cheat file if you google around (was it cheat.dat or something? can't remember :/ )

And yeah, as someone else pointed out it's very limited as it forcibly replace standard buttons with auto-fire buttons.

EDIT: or is the cheat file supplied with MAME those days? Which means you just have to enable them in the settings.
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Shepardus
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by Shepardus »

The cheat file isn't provided but in vanilla MAME there's a separate autofire settings menu accessible through the cheat menu. It doesn't save the settings so you have to reconfigure it every time you want to use it, which is a dealbreaker for me, and it also doesn't have support for custom buttons so you can't have two buttons performing the same function, one with autofire and one without.
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donluca
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by donluca »

Oh man, I feel silly now as I've always used the cheat file thinking it was compulsory to use autofire in games :D
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Shepardus
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Re: input lag sensitivity tester

Post by Shepardus »

Don't feel bad, they've done a great job of hiding it. :P
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