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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:29 am 


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Xyga wrote:
That's not really how it works, the only thing you can do with most mame build is disable vsync (or triplebuffer if you're using that), you'll shave off three frames but end up with unbearable screen tearing.

You need to use a specific build (note; the following is for windows, if you have linux, a pi, a mac, you can just go cry)

shmupmame: reduces lag by one frame thanks to hacked mame drivers, which desyncs the sprites in many games, based on an old mame build, still uses regular three frames sync, popular for its convenience, but overall less accurate and obviously obsolete.

retroarch: uses its brand name 'hard gpu sync' method that's supposed to sync using only one frame instead of three and the sound thread (?). Recently a new lag reduction method was added, using savestates, it's kind of weird since it can technically even eliminate the lag of original hardwares, apparently it's okay with some, terrible with others. also it's retroarch so it uses an older mame version too and some settings inherent to mame are inaccessible

groovymame: in basic usage it syncs using d3d9ex (need a build that comes with this d3d9ex) which syncs using only one frame instead of three for all hardwares 58~60Hz with smooth scrollings, for hardwares under 58hz it switches to a choppier triplebuffer though iirc one that's rather a doublebuffer. the range is adjustable.
for advanced users it is possible to lower the lag even further by running a benchmark and adjust the frame_delay setting (and some other settings but I'm giving you the short version) but that more manual way is not really aimed at lcd users and efficiency depends on your pc an lcd's power and flexibility
since it's up-to-date with baseline mame it also features audio lag reduction (portaudio settings) and of course all the emulation/hardware updates, no hacks or tricks breaking the normal running mame accuracy either

the latter is the one everyone who wants up-to-date mame with lower lag should use, there's custom d3d9ex builds floating around the BYOAC forums often shortly after official releases (which usually follows shortly after the official mame releases) for a basic use with immediate lag reduction on a windows + lcd setup there's only a few settings to adjust in the mame.ini on top of those inherent to basic mame's.
those few settings specific to groovymame though escape a lot of people, and they're not easy to find (there's a guide on a separate site but it's a bit outdated and aimed at crt users so some details are missing) but since we have discussed the topic recently they are aware of the situation and a short intro-guide to groovy might pop up one of those days on byoac ^^
until then I suggest you ask them directly

PS: also calamity and contributors are working on a new still experimental lag reduction method called 'frame slice'


Xyga, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the new "run ahead" feature that came out on retroarch to reduce lag. I think the concept sounds great, but it felt kind of buggy to me when I tested it.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:02 am 


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how much does the frame delay thing actually remove?
I seriously hope you aren't saying groovymame has way less lag because you play shmupmame with vsync on

my favourite part was when I gave groovymame another chance and the thing just crashed on me after a few minutes
don't remember that ever happening in shmupmame


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:21 am 


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I think DEP prevented Shmupmame from even starting on my computer the last time I tried it.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:29 am 


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So on regular versions of MAME disabling vsync and triple buffering is the only way to reduce input lag. Tradeoff is screen tearing. Does it matter if you use direct draw or direct 3d?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:34 am 


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Mark_MSX wrote:
Xyga, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the new "run ahead" feature that came out on retroarch to reduce lag. I think the concept sounds great, but it felt kind of buggy to me when I tested it.

Sorry I've still only read about it so I don't have anything to say, some of the criticism I read in the 'state of emulation' thread is a real turn off though.

5pectre wrote:
So on regular versions of MAME disabling vsync and triple buffering is the only way to reduce input lag. Tradeoff is screen tearing. Does it matter if you use direct draw or direct 3d?

iirc but this would require to check back for confirmation ddraw had a lag performance similar to default d3d9ex (without going into using frame_delay), but ddraw is not supported anymore and there's no point of using it when we have d3d9ex which is superior in all other areas and available with an up-to-date build.



----

@banana: don't bother asking me, I've said enough over what must be at least three different threads now, you never gave a shit.
ask Calamity directly, or better: go to BYOAC make a new thread and ask them all to school you about the various mame builds and lag.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:39 am 



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@donluca, if you decide to build a patched GM, pm me so we can add an already modified mame.ini for LCD.

Bananamatic wrote:
I seriously hope you aren't saying groovymame has way less lag because you play shmupmame with vsync on


frame delay = lagless vsync (GM only makes sense with vsync on)

It's beyond my understanding that anyone can tolerate playing anything with vsync off. If you're happy with vsync-off emulation then of course GM is worthless for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:44 am 


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thanks for the reply
I thought playing literally everything with vsync, triple buffering and everything else off was the standard for shmups


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:47 am 


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who the hell ever said that?

@Calamity: i think what he questions is the difference between shmupmame+vsync and GM+vsync (default d3d9ex)
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:50 am 


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basically everyone I know who plays shmups does it with vsync off? I have it forced off on every single game just in case
so no, I was questioning the difference between shmupmame with vsync off and groovymame with d3d9ex


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:55 am 


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Bananamatic wrote:
basically everyone I know who plays shmups does it with vsync off? I have it forced off on every single game just in case

that's the first time you ever mentioned that. i've been here long enough i've never heard of anyone playing mame without vsync no matter which build we're talking about, shmupmame, retroarch, or groovymame.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:04 am 


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it just shows how disconnected the subcommunities here are


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:21 am 


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the ones who are disconnected are those playing with tearing while better solutions have been around for years

that's kind of hilarious
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:32 am 


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I don't even notice the tearing anymore (and a lot of games that aren't in mame have the same "issue" if you play them with vsync off, so you either play it with tearing or something like 5 frames of input lag in case of steam mushi, after 8 years you stop caring because who the hell plays the games for the graphics)

you don't need a solution when it's not an issue


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:33 am 


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Calamity wrote:
It's beyond my understanding that anyone can tolerate playing anything with vsync off. If you're happy with vsync-off emulation then of course GM is worthless for you.


Shmups players avoid vsync like hell, regardless if it's emulation or PC gaming. There are numerous PC shmups where the vsync option adds noticeable input lag and is generally left off, and the Touhou series even had a vsync disabling patch for the Windows games because you couldn't normally turn vsync off (and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is infinitely more responsive with the vsync disabled).

Screen tearing is a minor inconvenience at worst, and a sure sign vsync is disabled at best, which is usually regarded as a good thing. PC games that can demonstrably do vsync without additional input lag reliably with a variety of graphics card setups are few and far between, and as such, it is not well regarded as a graphics option.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:44 am 


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@banana: lol i was waiting for that one. every time someone shows you you're wrong you change your stance and get to the "it doesnt matter anyway" refuge

@BKR: that's a prehistoric conception, for emus like I said solutions to play without tearing and reduced lag have been around for a long time. and on PC now people use g-sync/freesync and higher framerates (which is btw also ultimately the best solution for emulation)
tearing on a 60hz flat panel is not a non-issue its unbearable, and the further off-60hz the emulated hardware the worse it is
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:49 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:

Shmups players avoid vsync like hell, regardless if it's emulation or PC gaming. There are numerous PC shmups where the vsync option adds noticeable input lag and is generally left off, and the Touhou series even had a vsync disabling patch for the Windows games because you couldn't normally turn vsync off (and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is infinitely more responsive with the vsync disabled).

Screen tearing is a minor inconvenience at worst, and a sure sign vsync is disabled at best, which is usually regarded as a good thing. PC games that can demonstrably do vsync without additional input lag reliably with a variety of graphics card setups are few and far between, and as such, it is not well regarded as a graphics option.


Japanese pc shmups behave like they always vsynced..

Not sure how explain, but if i play on laptop, my laptop goes to 40 hz after reboot, and sometimes i forget to set it back to 60 hz, and only games where i see 40 fps in games instead of 60 fps during such cases are japanese shmups/fightings :roll:

Screen tearing is eyefuckery :cry:

Anyway i'm too slow to ever notice lag, so whatever

i still play mameuifx 142? 148? or something like that
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:55 am 


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that's exactly what I mean
"shmups community" is actually two different communities with different standards
some just want to play the games, think the graphics aren't impressive anyways so tearing is irrelevant, scanlines are just something that gets in the way and makes it harder to see and pcbs are just overpriced crap
meanwhile the "retro" people would go jihadi john on you if you tell them that because it has to be authentic and everything and real hardware is sacred


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:57 am 



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So if the suggested comparison is:

GM d3d9ex vsync frame delay VS Shmupmame vsync off


... theoretically GM and Shmupmame might have barely the same latency (but GM does that without the tearing). The frame that Shmupmame cuts off by removing the sprite buffer would be equivalent to the frame that GM removes thanks to frame delay. I'll record a high speed video comparing both when I have some time. Any suggestion for a game to try?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:03 pm 


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The "shmups community" is not "two" different communities, it's a bunch of micro-communities that all hate each other.

Shmup players avoid bad vsync like hell. Touhou and a lot of doujin shmups are pretty good about vsync. Unfortunately Touhou has Koumakyou and Youyoumu, which have some pretty silly lag and basically require the vsync hack. I theorize that this has something to do with DirectX9-> not liking whatever the hell these games' DirectX 8 code is doing, but I don't have a setup to test that.

Vsync off is pretty terrible. Like anything else, people force themselves to "get used" to it and literally forget any other way of life, eventually coming to demonize anything else. It's not ideal and there is a better way; that's what things like FreeSync/G-Sync and GroovyMAME are for.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:05 pm 


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Calamity wrote:
@donluca, if you decide to build a patched GM, pm me so we can add an already modified mame.ini for LCD.


I'm not at home and I don't know when I'll get back :(

But user zakk here managed to do it without issues:
zakk wrote:
I just tried it, it applies cleanly


See if you can work out something or I'll try my hand at it when I get back home.

For a shmup to try, I think anything but CV1K games would be ok.

Dodonpachi, Batsugun, etc. are all good candidates IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:13 pm 


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Calamity wrote:
So if the suggested comparison is:

GM d3d9ex vsync frame delay VS Shmupmame vsync off


... theoretically GM and Shmupmame might have barely the same latency (but GM does that without the tearing). The frame that Shmupmame cuts off by removing the sprite buffer would be equivalent to the frame that GM removes thanks to frame delay. I'll record a high speed video comparing both when I have some time. Any suggestion for a game to try?

honestly I don't see the point of that comparison (non-synced shmupmame vs synced GM), I think he realized he was wrong so he added up that novsync story. previously it was 'lag doesnt matter', now 'tearing doesnt matter' (which contradicts the previous statement)
he's trying to get out of a tough spot by making you say something that'd help him get out of it as far-fetched as the outcome would be in that comparison with an obvious handicap for GM
GM can still win but it'll depend on the hardware and games emulated, on a pc+lcd the hardware, emulated game and display will be serious variables.

the fair comparison would be shmupmame vsync VS. GM vsync (d3d9ex, first defaul autosync, then using frame_delay)
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:14 pm 


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Oh right, CRTs.

Scanlines are something different. They're not at all interesting unless you absolutely want to emulate a real CRT TV, much like "correct" aspect ratio buttons. I don't really understand the sheer amount of hype, but it's good that the simulation effort exists. It should never be the primary focus, however. There are many many many games that look completely wrong on real TVs because they weren't drawn for them at all. Tons of older console games (as I am increasingly learning lately), lots of (but not nearly all) arcade games, etc.

BizHawk has this very lovely button that ignores "correct" aspect, and it's also the default, because BizHawk is written by smart people. I don't think BizHawk has scanlines enabled by default either, so basically default BizHawk is the correct way to play a lot of (but, again, not all) games. This is one of the very few good multiemulators, and people should use it if they're really gonna use a multiemulator at all.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:56 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
honestly I don't see the point of that comparison (non-synced shmupmame vs synced GM)

the fair comparison would be shmupmame vsync VS. GM vsync


lol
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:02 pm 


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Quote:
BizHawk has this very lovely button that ignores "correct" aspect, and it's also the default, because BizHawk is written by smart people.


who the hell plays Capcom CPS games in their "original aspect" when everything is stretched as shit
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:06 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Xyga wrote:
honestly I don't see the point of that comparison (non-synced shmupmame vs synced GM)

the fair comparison would be shmupmame vsync VS. GM vsync


lol

what's so funny, explain yourself, I want to see what kind of mental gymanastics you guys are ready to do to make any funky far-fetched sense out of your statements
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:37 pm 


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I'm not delving into this flamewar, but just wanted to put another vote in the "vsync always off" column.

I'd love to check out Groovymame if it really is better, but "go to this other forum and make a thread asking how to do it" is a good example of why I haven't done it yet. I look forward to that upcoming setup guide, though :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:48 pm 


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well you don't necessarily have to if you look around we've talked about it (including settings) in other threads here on shmups. my comment was adressed to those who aren't satisfied with that, the sceptics obviously can ask directly at the place it's available and developed.

but i'm still waiting to read about how it makes any sense to play with tearing and desynced sprites, plus outdated drivers, over even more effective lag reduction (including that of sound) without tearing, and with up-to-date drivers. and i want an explanation of the rationale of comparing that chaos with something clean legit and working.
oh yeah there was the autofire options convenience, but thanks to the kindness of GM developers that argument too is about to go poof.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:52 pm 


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well for starters shmupmame never crashed on me
unlike groovymame


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:55 pm 


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my god yes that defeats all arguments. that it would have been because of a mistake on your part doesn't apply of course.
man you were right GM is shit.
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 Post subject: Re: Getting Back Into Shmups - Mame Version?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:03 pm 


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it's a marginal improvement not even in a gameplay way, no UI, can't see playtime, billions of options where setting one thing wrong can make the thing randomly crash, refuses to save button config and dipswitches and none of the sites give any decent info on how to fix it

what the hell is audio lag anyways, the only audio difference I noticed in groovymame was stuttering and distortion when I unpaused it (probably didn't set some random value to something specific)
if you just want to play the game there's no reason to bother with any of this shit


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