Your favorite "bomb for score" systems?

[Squire Grooktook]

We've probably had topics along these lines before, but hey it's been a while, what the hell.

The Garegga trilogy is my personal bet. They contain what is probably the deepest and most varied application of bombs for scoring purposes that I've seen in the genre. Bonus points for most of the bombs being flashy, memorable, and mechanically diverse between each craft.

Kaikan's bombs also come to mind, though they're much more limited and predictable in usage then Garegga's (basically, after building your medal chain to max, you wait for a big zako rush or particularly screenfilling boss attack, and fry all enemies/bullets with a bomb for a rush of medals), but still fun.

Trying to think of other examples...

[Sumez]

I don't think I've ever played anything other than Yagawa's games where bombing for scoring actually makes a really interesting mechanic that truly creates an effect of hectic resource management as opposed to a slightly more involved way of rewarding the player from reaching the end of a stage/game with bombs left in stock.

So Ibara obviously gets my pick. But I'm curious to hear any non-Yagawa games suggested, if that's ever going to happen.

[Mero]

Bullet Hell Monday, enemies killed with bombs give double multiplier increase.

[Squire Grooktook]

But I'm curious to hear any non-Yagawa games suggested, if that's ever going to happen.

Same!

I forgot a personal favorite though, on that note.

eXceed 2nd does bombing very well. Speedkilling bosses is where most of your score comes from, and with the games Ikaruga-nabbed polarity system, recharging your bombs by catching bullets like medals and grinding certain bullet spawners becomes an addictive risk/reward gambit.

Refrain Prisim Memory also has an interesting bombing recharge system, based around combo'ing successive bomb inputs and cancelling bullets into items before blowing those items away with bombs. If only I could figure out how the scoring system actually works...

[Shepardus]

The Garegga trilogy is my personal bet. They contain what is probably the deepest and most varied application of bombs for scoring purposes that I've seen in the genre. Bonus points for most of the bombs being flashy, memorable, and mechanically diverse between each craft.

Except in Bakraid where every ship has literally the same bomb (except the Type B ships which have same bomb but it lasts longer). Still a lot of fun and definitely unique, though.

Fairy Wars has fun bombing. Its freezing mechanic in general gives meaning to the shape and coverage of the bullet patterns, while bombing makes the fireballs (normally unfreezable) an active part of scoring too. Similar to Yagawa's games, the resources tie together so you can use suicides to get more bombs to get more score. Some of the other Touhou games also involve bombing for score but I think it's most fun in Fairy Wars.

Thunder Dragon 2 also involves bombing for score. Nothing really special mechanically about the bombs themselves (other than giving you the maximum bomb bonus when you reach max bomb stock rather than when you exceed it), they just help you speedkill. They're pretty satisfying, though. WHOA IT'S BEAUTIFUL

I guess there's also ring^-27's Bomb mode, but that's not a limited-use bomb, it's more like Fairy Wars' freezing but with a very short cooldown.

Astebreed has those special attacks which are kind of like bombs.

[Plasmo]

Is Ikaruga's energy release a bomb? If yes, put it very high up on the list of awesomeness.

Is Radiant Silvergun's sword attack a bomb?

What is a bomb?

There is no bomb in Garegga, there is only weapon.

Where do we go after we die?

Mars Matrix's bomb is a spectrum.

Are there more than 2 genders?

[Squire Grooktook]

Is Ikaruga's energy release a bomb? If yes, put it very high up on the list of awesomeness.

Is Radiant Silvergun's sword attack a bomb?

What is a bomb?

There is no bomb in Garegga, there is only weapon.

Where do we go after we die?

Mars Matrix's bomb is a spectrum.

Are there more than 2 genders?

Well, for me, what I'm looking for is:

1: cancels bullets it comes in contact with
2: its use is somewhat limited, either by time (needing to recharge, etc.) or by resources.

By that logic, I wouldn't count Ikaruga's...though it's still worth a mention. Mars Matrix and Giga Wing count, technically despite being reflection attacks rather then an actual weapon themselves. RSG definitely counts.

I know one could argue about semantics, but not quite the topic I'm hoping for! I'm just looking for flashy bullet cancelling special weapon attacks that can also be used for score, whatever you wanna call 'em.

[Despatche]

spam weapon 6 in zanac wwww

[Plasmo]

Mars Matrix and Giga Wing count, technically despite being reflection attacks rather then an actual weapon themselves.

Does Giga Wing have two different bombs then?

[Shepardus]

Would you count sustained-fire attacks like the lightning beam in Kamui or the burst laser in Dariusburst? Either way G.Darius's beams are probably worth a mention.

The attack in The Hurricane of the Varstray looks pretty cool but I don't know how it works because I've never played the game myself.

[Sumez]

I completely forgot about Recca despite recently getting it, but scoring high in that game definitely requires you to use bombs almost exclusively. I'm not sure if it counts as "bombing" though, as you're not spending resources, but rather giving up your ability to primary fire. It's definitely interesting having to rely on that bomb to score high. Too bad scoring is super broken in the non-caravan modes.

Of course, it's another Yagawa game >_>

[Squire Grooktook]

Mars Matrix and Giga Wing count, technically despite being reflection attacks rather then an actual weapon themselves.

Does Giga Wing have two different bombs then?

Sure, close enough! I suppose I could add the stipulation that a bomb must be an attack on its own, which disqualifies reflector attacks like GG/MM...but eh who cares.

Like I said, I don't care too much about the semantics of it, and if people post examples that are not quite what I was hoping for, I don't mind.

Just gimme your limited big explodey beams that cancel bullets and kill stuff hard and make big numbers come in

Would you count sustained-fire attacks like the lightning beam in Kamui or the burst laser in Dariusburst? Either way G.Darius's beams are probably worth a mention.

The attack in The Hurricane of the Varstray looks pretty cool but I don't know how it works because I've never played the game myself.

Yeah, I was going to mention G-Darius myself.

Kamui/DB...hmmm. The cooldown is so short that it's practically not limited in the way other such mechanics are...but eh, close enough, again.

Varstrays mechanic looked neat but was rather braindead when I played it IMO...but IIRC the game has changed a lot since release and I'm not sure if that holds true.

[Shepardus]

Well, for me, what I'm looking for is:

1: cancels bullets it comes in contact with
2: its use is somewhat limited, either by time (needing to recharge, etc.) or by resources.

Sora and Suguri fulfill both criteria, though I can't remember if they actually play into scoring in any way.

Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm has the energy mode bomb which is charged by grazing. I don't remember if it's more profitable score-wise to bomb or not to bomb. It's kind of annoying how the bullet cancelling of the bombs interferes with getting recharges while bombing.

Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler have the photo mechanic, which is like a "bomb" except it's your only attack.

I've hardly played Blue Revolver but I've heard it's got bombing for score. Might as well mention Muchi Muchi Pork, too, even though there isn't much special about that bomb IMO.

Some others: LASERREIMU, Imalice (which sadly seems to be vaporware at this point but at least there's a demo). I don't remember what advantages/drawbacks bombing has in Hellsinker but it's always a good place to find interesting things (I really only mention it because I'm a big fan of the Kagura-Xanthez laser bomb). There's also Gokujou Parodius and Sexy Parodius with the purple bell shenanigans (in certain places grabbing purple bells can destroy enough enemies to give you more bells than you started with, but this is a pretty high-level scoring tactic, not something an average player would use, not for scoring purposes at least).

I completely forgot about Recca despite recently getting it, but scoring high in that game definitely requires you to use bombs almost exclusively. I'm not sure if it counts as "bombing" though, as you're not spending resources, but rather giving up your ability to primary fire. It's definitely interesting having to rely on that bomb to score high. Too bad scoring is super broken in the non-caravan modes.

Of course, it's another Yagawa game >_>

I wasn't sure whether to mention it myself, but if we're going to include Recca then you gotta include Pink Sweets for completeness' sake. I do think Recca has the more visually satisfying explosion of the two (even if 90% of it is mad flickering).

[Squire Grooktook]

I've hardly played Blue Revolver but I've heard it's got bombing for score.

Yeah, it's inspired by Garegga and fairly elegant.

You have normal shot, special weapon (which requires ammo), and bomb. Bomb cancels all bullets on-screen into special weapon ammo.

Raise your chain to max with normal shot, then use special weapon to cash in. When you run out of ammo, you may cancel a well shaped bullet pattern into ammo. If you get enough score out of all this for an extend, you can even suicide Garegga style to replenish both ammo and bomb. I like it a lot.

Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm has the energy mode bomb which is charged by grazing. I don't remember if it's more profitable score-wise to bomb or not to bomb. It's kind of annoying how the bullet cancelling of the bombs interferes with getting recharges while bombing.

Yeah, it's like a worse version of the eXceed 2nd system I mentioned. Still fun, but I could never tell if raising your chain value higher with bombs was actually increasing score or not.

I've had Laser Reimu on my radar for a while, never touched it. Should take a look. Imalice is also great, I hope it gets finished.

[M.Knight]

Off the top of my head :

Ketsui Death Label converts all bullets on screen into red 5 boxes when you use one, and the game does not hurt your multipliers for using them.
Unlike the main game, here you want to use all your bombs during every boss battle to boost that multiplier because they are refreshed between two fights. You'll also aim for the no-miss on each boss so that you are granted a fourth bomb very time.

Most Milestone games do reward bombing for score. In Radirgy and Radirgy Noa, bombing can be used to increase the multiplier. In Karous, I think it boosts the exp rate gain of other weapons when used in conjunction (the total exp being a multiplier).
In any case, bombing very frequently happens if you want to quick-kill the enemy waves.

Do Hyper-looking weapons count if they follow the criteria? Graze Counter's Counter beam cancels bullets into golden stars, and needs to recharged by grazing stuff. It is also essential to high scores as the stars are worth a lot of points and they also recharge another Hyper weapon that can also generate even more lucrative red stars.

Gun Frontier has you bomb a few spots for secret point bonuses, and its bomb can also be used to get lots of points from the stage 2's blue planes section.

IIRC, XIIZeal's bomb converts the bullets it catches in its range into points. It may not be the central score mechanic (that woud be the side shot and the burners), but it can be useful against the denser patterns.

[gray117]

There's not many I know of ... the easy way to add a bit of score intrigue is of course to not reward a bomb, and keep that the refrain of the survivalist.

Ikaruga and RS are not strictly 'bomb for score' imho; the nuance kind of coming from when not hold down fire and when not to bomb... but they do indeed have great bomb (like) mechanics for general play, and very obviously accessible ...

Somehow - much as I like the game for just survival - the scoring side to ibara just seems so... punishingly pedantic?... not fun for me. BUT if you really want something bombtastic I guess this is pretty much your go-to option?

[CStarFlare]

Harmful Park has great bombs and at least one is good for scoring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqEDIVTEa9o

[CloudyMusic]

As already mentioned in this thread, I like the bombs in Blue Revolver. They can be used to bridge chains like Bakraid, they apply your active multiplier to all targets (i.e. give lots of points), and give you special weapon ammo to boot (useful for both scoring and survival).

[LordHypnos]

If reflection mechanics count, then obviously all of the Giga Wings and Mars Matrix are up there. The actual "bomb" in Mars Matrix (GHB) is cool looking, but really bad for score, but obviously the mosquito system in general is a really elegant way to bridge (or even increase) chains.

Also, as much as actually playing it is extremely frustrating, I think I remember RefleX having a cool scoring system where you chain enemies by killing them with reflected bullets. I can't remember the details of how it works, though.

Samidare also has a great (pseudo) reflection based scoring system where you absorb bullets with your shield and get a hyper that lasts longer the more bullets you absorbed, and gives you x16. This game also does not have a traditional bomb like the Giga Wings do, IIRC. Incedentally, there is some strategic suiciding used in the WR score for Samidare's extra stage (and letter scores), so maybe some kind of Raizing influence there?

As far as traditional bombs, I haven't actually tried it (seems like it has a pretty severe difficulty curve for scoring), but Battle Bakraid has got to be the most fun to watch example of bombs used for score. I definitely also like the scoring in Blue Revolver quite a bit, as others have mentioned.

[copy-paster]

Milking the fourth boss in Batsugun (which shares highest score possible) requires bomb too.

[Bananamatic]

dodonpachi
you bomb exactly once for score on the 2-6 boss

[Squire Grooktook]

>Be Cave
>Put a ton of effort into drawing beautiful, stylish, visceral, and impactful bomb animations that leave the players going "WOW, AWESOME!!"
>Punish you for ever using them.

RIP Rest in piss, bitches.

[gameoverDude]

Dangun Feveron's Fever mode adds one. Here is IcarusFW's replay with a lot of it from stages 2-5. There are even some suicides to replenish bombs. Cancelling bullets makes more cyborgs.

[Sumez]

RIP Rest in piss, bitches.

Come on. Not using the bombs is only the endgame here. Don't tell me you never use bombs in Cave games.

[Inglorious_B]

Aka To Blue.

Using the 'Bomb' projectile IS the scoring system.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Am I in the minority and the only person who usually hates games with "bomb for score" systems? Honestly, I think a large part of the reason I don't get into Raizing or Yagawa shmups is because of that. CAVE's shmups as well as other similarly styled games where the main scoring mechanic isn't tied to safety bombs feel more satisfying, less aggravating to play. You can learn a scoring system without feeling as if you have to play a dangerous balancing game of sacrificing survival vs scoring, and you always have a backup option for survival.

True, some games do have scoring penalties for bombing and encourage you to eventually learn to get good enough not to bomb, but that's expected to some extend, and as long as the bomb penalty's not massive, taking a small or moderate score penalty in exchange for not screwing over an entire run for a mistake is pretty nice.

Giga Wing is definitely not a game I'd consider with a "bomb for score" system - the reflect is a special attack. Like Espgaluda's Kakusei, it is intended for use for scoring, but new players can save it strictly for survival purposes if they wish, in addition to having bombs. The bombs still exist though to get you out of a pinch if you're reflecting for score and suddenly get trapped (your reflect meter always is ready to go as soon as a bomb animation ends). Espgaluda does have at least one bit on the Stage 1 midboss where it's good for scoring to bomb I think, but otherwise its bombs are all survival backup as with Giga Wing. If the bombs didn't exist as a backup in Giga Wing, then yes, it'd feel much more akin to Mars Matrix which is a good example I guess of this "all or nothing" style of scoring vs survival design.

RIP Rest in piss, bitches.

I'm struggling to think of CAVE games where bombing is heavily penalized other than affecting a minor end of stage/game bonuses (relative to the potential score you get from the scoring systems). The two that do spring to mind is Futari Black Label's Original Mode, which has ridiculously powerful and wide area shot types to compensate for the bomb killing your score meter, and the Dodonpachi games which have extremely strict chaining for score if you're going for full-stage chains, bombs or no bombs. Even with hypers to help you link chains or use to get out of a jam, DDP chaining is very demanding.

All three of the ESP games and the Mushi games allow for bombing without too much of a penalty if used midstage, and I'm pretty sure the same applies to Deathsmiles and possibly Akai Katana (bombs in DS can also be used to manipulate the meter for a rapid recharge of PowerUp mode). Bombs also aren't hugely damaging when used during boss fights in DDP games, at least not as far as I'm aware...?

[CloudyMusic]

NMNB is extremely important in Progear (which I know you've played a ton of ) in a similar way to DDP's cumulative maximum bomb bonus.

As you also mentioned, one of the things I like about Deathsmiles is that there's no score penalty associated with bombing (at least not while powered up), and they can even be a beneficial scoring tool in specific circumstances. It's pretty squarely in the middle ground between a scoring tool and a survival tool.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Oh gosh I can't believe I forgot Progear. Yeah, basically your score is in the toilet if you bomb anywhere before the final boss because those max bomb bonuses add a crazy amount to the gem meter for points via per-frame damage, not to mention upping the minimum gem rank, etc.

Also, while I don't play many (if any) "bomb for score" games, I totally respect the insane skill that goes into the style. Watching the craziness that goes into something like a scoring run of Garegga or Ibara is always impressive. ^.^

[Sumez]

and they can even be a beneficial scoring tool in specific circumstances. It's pretty squarely in the middle ground between a scoring tool and a survival tool.

Almost like if you're bombing for score

I actually like DS's use of bombing as a tool to aid your recharges, but in order to really help the score, it ends up being really obscure and works best with extremely pre-planned activation/recharge patterns, very far from Yagawa's somewhat more dynamic design, leaving a lot of room for improvising.
But on paper, the idea is really cool - using bombs to aid an existing mechanic, rather than directly tie into scoring.

[Shepardus]

Guwange doesn't directly penalize you much for bombing, but it's really easy to lose your chain when bombing since the chain meter decreases throughout the entire bomb duration, and losing your chain will destroy your score.

Ketsui of course has that Ura loop requirement, but once you get to the loop the penalty for bombing once isn't too bad.

One thing I don't like about some "bomb for score" systems is that saving up your bombs for the right time can be almost as restrictive on your bomb usage as not using them at all. If every bomb has a purpose and a "right place" to use it for score, using a bomb in the wrong place is still penalizing and you don't have any margin to work with. Still more fun in that you actually get the satisfaction of using those bombs, though.

You could, of course, just avoid all the dilemma about bomb usage by not putting any bombs in your game.