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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:26 am 


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Glad there is an extra week. Just rushed here before bed so that I can sub in Cambria Sword, which is the coolest shit conceived in recent memory.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:33 am 


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LordHypnos wrote:
I decided to type up a little snippet for each game in my list. Hopefully I won't regret it.

Yes, I am aware that it's excessively wordy :oops:


But this is what makes such threads worthy - reading interesting opinions.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:43 pm 


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Agreed on the detailed comments' usefulness. That write-up defintely wasn't too long nor too verbose. I enjoyed reading it and I am sure others have.
It's also pretty fun to see the type of mechanics or playstyle that appeals the most to a player by reading their comments. In your case LordHypnos, you seem to like reflect/shield mechanics.

As for Cambria Sword, it seemed to have an interesting setting but from what I recall, can't a playthrough last 3 to 4 hours?
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:35 am 


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Thanks. I do enjoy reading people's rationale during the annual top 25, as well. That's a big part of why I tried my hand at it.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:46 am 


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M.Knight wrote:
As for Cambria Sword, it seemed to have an interesting setting but from what I recall, can't a playthrough last 3 to 4 hours?


There are shortcuts to skip stages, but even with those fully abused you get a 1hr+ run. It's truly insane. And yet, the developer dude put so much effort into every single stage. So many interesting set pieces, a bazillion boss fights, the awesome "KILL IT" boss encounter warning, and guitars chugging while you kick Cambrian ass with your little cute(?) Sarotrocercus...
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:30 am 


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The write ups were a nice touch Hyp. Although I must admit I am surprised I don't see Cho Ren Sha on your list.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:27 pm 


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kane : So it is the kind of game that you don't necessarily play over and over to optimize your score, but is instead a long journey with lots of massive bosses and other cool and entertaining stuff. I can see the appeal.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:39 pm 


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Stevens wrote:
The write ups were a nice touch Hyp. Although I must admit I am surprised I don't see Cho Ren Sha on your list.

Cho Ren Sha is good, but ultimately I decided that V . V narrowly edges it out for late toaplan style games. search weapon + gradius powerups beats spreadshot and hang out inside of triangle powerups. That being said, though, I might change my mind if I had played more CRS recently, but I just threw in a credit or two, and found V . V to be more enjoyable.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:34 pm 


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Last day for real this time, whatever we're stuck with after that is what I'm running the numbers on
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:12 am 


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I remember downloaded Mars Matrix when I was picking up random MAME ROMs, and ended up didn't like the style and gameplay. All these discussions and votings about MM makes me to revisit the game again.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:45 am 


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copy-paster wrote:
I remember downloaded Mars Matrix when I was picking up random MAME ROMs, and ended up didn't like the style and gameplay. All these discussions and votings about MM makes me to revisit the game again.

It can be kind of hard for some people to get the hang of what with the various quirks of the shield mechanic. It's definitely worth it, IMO, but I suppose it's a matter of taste, too. Not everybody likes ultra fast paced action, excitement, and fun :P

I did notice that all of the last minute votes included it, which is nice to see :mrgreen:

EDIT: Oh yeah, I was going to mention that if you're playing in shmupMAME (and I think it's pretty laggy in non-shmup MAMEs), B button will be mapped to auto for piercing cannon which could make it a little more accessible. My memory is that the A button doesn't supercede it though, so you will have to lift up from the B button to use the shield, which I found to negate a lot of the benefit of the auto. Still probably worth it though. Dreamcast port also has auto fire, and doesn't counterstop, and is the definitive version, so is preferable if you have a DC or a powerful enough computer to emulate DC at fullspeed.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:37 am 



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Man this voting stuff takes a solid effort.

I wonder if it would be better to let everyone vote with a ranked list of games, however many they feel like. Then apply an algorithm on that to whittle things down to the top 25.

Basically something like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_tr ... sfers_Only

(I haven't really tried to understand the "more refined" methods below that one.)

The goal would be:

1) simpler voting: just worry about ranks, not weights and particular numbers of games (should stiill have a minimum I guess... or a range like >20, <50 for sanity
2) may help reduce strategic voting concerns
3) may help create more meaningful lower ranked games which is kinda fun to see

It's past my bedtime so this may or may not make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:34 am 


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Here are some thoughts on my top 15. "+" for things I like, "-" for things I dislike, "*" for things I'm neutral about or that didn't factor into my rating. I probably missed some things but oh well.
Spoiler: show
Parodius Da! (Arcade)
+ Balanced scoring system across stages and sources (bells, kills, spare lives/checkpoint-milking, etc.) gives you multiple ways to incrementally improve your score throughout the game, and means a small mistake isn't going to kill your score unless you're aiming for perfection
+ Good variety in level design, with different sights and sounds and things to do (though I think the Gradius series generally has more interesting level geometry)
+ Reasonable checkpoints for the first seven, maybe eight, stages
+ Great soundtrack
+ Second loop will keep you busy forever
* Rank system is an acquired taste
* Characters are pretty balanced but that's mainly because they're quite similar to each other
- Too much slowdown in places (though I find it more predictable and manipulable than Gradius III's)
- Some of the checkpoints in the last few stages are pretty bad. The last one in stage 9 is literally impossible at high rank unless you can get a red bell.
- Game is too long for two loops
- Second loop is a sick joke

Sexy Parodius
+ Mission challenges give additional meaning to stages beyond simply killing everything
+ Fun and varied level design with great pacing
+ Great soundtrack
+ Wide variety of characters and control schemes with advantages and disadvantages for scoring and survival; there's something for everyone.
* Kind of a shame that you'll never see two of the stages in high-level play...
* I'm not a huge fan of the purple bell scoring, but I don't think it's bad either. Seems more evenly spread out through the game than in Gokujou Parodius, anyway, and it's fun to watch.
- Dislike how much extra lives are worth (though I know it's to counteract the checkpoint-milking that plagues Gokujou Parodius)

Gun.Smoke (Arcade)
+ Very fluid, "dynamic" feel for an STG, especially compared to how stiff many other games of the time were. You're given the ability to shoot in several directions but with limited range; that combined with the enemies means you'll be diving all over the screen avoiding enemies and shooting them back.
+ Amazing mileage achieved from the few enemy types there are; every encounter feels fresh even on subsequent playthroughs
+ Effective use of terrain to add variety and create new challenges (see stage 3 in particular)
+ Checkpoints + forgiving powerup scheme suits the gameplay well
+ Pretty good soundtrack
- Could use some more enemy types (not sure why only stage 6 gets unique enemies...)
- Scoring is pretty much meaningless except as a way to grant extra lives

TwinBee Yahho!
+ Excellent presentation (graphics, music, character voicing, etc.); really feels like you're living a TwinBee anime
+ Short and sweet
+ Scoring is really fun in Practice mode; more involved than in Detana!! TwinBee but still easy to get into. Having bells remain the same color for several shots allows a faster, more frantic playstyle.
- Having to keep a 50 bell chain for the end of stage 3 in practice mode is annoying
- Camera movements/horizontal camera scrolling is annoying for bell juggling
- Various weapons can make bell juggling in Normal/Special mode difficult; losing the wings powerup is disastrous in this regard
- Normal and Special scoring is too finicky for my liking (though I guess it's something for people who are otherwise too good at these games)

Gokujou Parodius (Arcade)
+ Oozes personality. Koitsu and his missiles show how you can inject character into even the smallest things without sacrificing functionality.
+ Incredible soundtrack, my personal favorite out of the Parodius series
* Large variety of characters, but balance is so wack that nobody plays anything but Koitsu and maybe Michael
* I've never played the SFC/SNES port
- Bizarre difficulty curve makes middle of the game really frustrating and early game (stage 1) kind of boring
- High-level scoring is too dependent on certain stages (stage 1 boss, stage 5, checkpoint-milking special stage) and has comparatively little to do in other stages

Great Fairy Wars
+ Freeze mechanic is great fun; simple but deep, permeates the game's identity
+ Balance between bombs, lives, freeze feels fluid and dynamic; game encourages you to use what you have rather than passively saving it all up
+ Cool (no pun intended) Touhou bullet patterns
+ Short and sweet (less so with the milking)
+ Good (albeit not my favorite) Touhou soundtrack
+ Fairies
- Scoring too RNG-dependent for my taste
- Not a big fan of milking things for extended periods of time

Crimzon Clover: World Ignition
+ Incredibly satisfying. Stars, break, double break, etc.
+ Excellent pacing, no part feels redundant
+ Boost mode is a huge adrenaline rush
+ Distinctive enemy behaviors, feels more memorable than any CAVE game I've played, especially the bosses (see similar note on Cho Ren Sha 68k)
+ Great soundtrack (my favorite part being the first part of stage 5)
* Huge difficulty gap between Novice and Arcade; the doujin game kind of fills in that void.
- Charging up break meter and break multiplier can feel finicky with point-blanking and whatnot. Feel somewhat similarly about lock-on multiplier.

Space Bomber
+ Hilariously cheesy presentation belies a surprisingly well-designed scoring game with unique mechanics.
+ Psikyo game with an actually interesting score system and core mechanic (*gasp*)
+ Fixed stage order (never liked the random stage order in Psikyo games...)
- Boss patterns can be a pain to learn (see similar note on Dragon Blaze)
- There seems to be some sort of glitch where enemies can be released unintentionally (as if you let go of the button for a moment), and I'm pretty sure it's not just from emulation

Dragon Blaze
+ Superb core mechanic. Simple and easy to understand, but with endless possibilities. Much like Irem's best in this regard.
+ Rhythmic flow combining the dragon-shot with Psikyo's quick pacing
+ One of the few Psikyo scoring systems I actually like (Space Bomber being the other one). Aggressive without being overbearing with point-blanking/speedkills like many other "aggressive" games.
+ Cool bullet patterns, nice combination of interesting shapes and movements and fast waves for that signature Psikyo rush
- Psikyo games are a pain to learn. More than other STGs, Psikyo games make me feel like I'm throwing routes at the wall until I find something that sticks, rather than figuring something out.
- Soundtrack isn't that great (though not unpleasant either).
- At times the bullets feel too dense for a Psikyo game.

Detana!! TwinBee (Arcade)
+ Bell juggling is a distinctive way to distribute powerups, allowing for rapid recoveries if you're skilled enough and also giving a great degree of control over medal collection. Juggling bells well makes me feel like a badass.
+ Interesting enemy movement designs which give challenge and variety despite having very few bullets and all of those bullets being slow and aimed.
+ Catchy soundtrack
+ Clearly plenty of effort put into second loop, with recolored backgrounds and altered enemy and bell formations.
- Not much to scoring if you remember where all the bells are and sit on top of the clouds when shooting them
- Arm hitboxes awkwardly extend beyond the main ship's body
- Second loop is still a sick joke (though actually better-balanced than Parodius Da's)

Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius ~forever with me~
+ Lots of fun stages in here (I love the TwinBee stage and the Gradius III-inspired final stage)
+ Great soundtrack (love the Gradius III arrangements in the final stage!)
+ Checkpoints feel just right; game is a friendly and forgiving introduction to Parodius without losing its essence.
+ Huge amount of characters to play around with (but I haven't tried most of them...)
* Thank goodness you can turn off the announcer voice.
- Rather long for my taste, some parts kind of drag (bosses in particular)
- Despite blue bells actually having more scoring utility, scoring is less interesting than in the arcade Parodius games because the game loops infinitely.

Cho Ren Sha 68k
+ Simple, fun shooting. Distinctive enemy behaviors make it easy to remember what to do, and there's enough leeway to allow variety in the face of RNG suicide bullets.
+ Great soundtrack, one of my favorites. Easily the best of any freeware shooter I can think of.
+ One-hit shield and bombs, power-down on death, and frequent powerups give what feels like a good level of forgivingness. Take advantage of the powerup trick to quickly power up if you can, or grab what you need if it's too hectic.
* I never bothered setting up autofire for this game, but mashing gets tiring by the end of the second loop
- Hard mode suicide bullets are too RNG for my taste, normal mode a bit too easy

Out Zone
+ Amazing soundtrack, every track is great
+ Nice escalation of rank makes the game feel just right with its fast-paced action
+ Use of terrain gives variety to the level design.
+ Shield and bombs avoids too much frustration.
* Game is a pain without autofire but you're arguably too powerful with it...
- Not a fan of the scoring secrets (the Zero Wing ship that flies across the screen)
- Random powerups are lame

Progear no Arashi
+ Canceling bullets is satisfying, gives meaning to the shapes of the bullet patterns
+ Fun bullet patterns that twist and turn and have personality; the boss patterns are some of my favorites from CAVE
+ Waifus
* Noticeable input lag in MAME
- Scoring overly penalizes first death/bomb
- Soundtrack is kind of meh

Gradius III (Arcade)
+ Epic scope, gives off a feeling of grandeur more than almost any other STG
+ Varied level design that takes advantage of the option system (stage 10!)
+ Variety of weapon loadouts that make a meaningful difference on gameplay
+ Best soundtrack of the series
- Erratic slowdown can get you killed
- Certain hitboxes are egregiously bad
- Many checkpoints are terrible
- I hate the moai stage even more than the cube rush

tigen wrote:
The goal would be:

1) simpler voting: just worry about ranks, not weights and particular numbers of games (should stiill have a minimum I guess... or a range like >20, <50 for sanity
2) may help reduce strategic voting concerns
3) may help create more meaningful lower ranked games which is kinda fun to see

It's past my bedtime so this may or may not make sense.

  1. But then you have to worry about the ranks. The current system lets you assign weights if you want, but if you don't have an order in mind you can just give everything the same weight. The restrictions on how many games you can vote for are deliberate rules rather than a limitation of how the votes are counted, so that's not really a problem that a different tallying system would solve.
  2. I prefer giving the voters control over how their vote is counted and how to express their opinions. The defense against "strategic voting," if such a defense is needed at all, should just be to have enough participation that a single vote doesn't dramatically sway the results.
  3. Maybe, but I think it's hard to say without seeing how people would adjust their lists for a different system and running through the calculations. I personally wouldn't be opposed to this but it also depends on what others want to get from this list.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:36 am 


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Shepardus : It was fun reding your mini-reviews!

I'll probably give Gun.Smoke a go one of these days. It is not even the first time I heard about its franticness.

Does Fairy Wars have that much milking? I mostly play it for survival and like the weapon system a lot because it feels so well-integrated and interactive, something I haven't found in most of the other Touhou games I've played. However, as I haven't tried my hand at scoring, I didn't put that much thought about the optimal scoring strategies involving the freeze mechanic. In fact I don't usually play Touhou games for score. Here, I suppose you have to graze a lot during the boss fights and the only damage you inflict on the bosses would be with the freeze and not the main shot?
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:14 pm 


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Enjoyable to read write-up, Shepardus. Definitely piqued my interest about Gun.Smoke too (if BIL hadn't enough already). That's definitely one of the old school games that I need to get around to trying.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:51 pm 


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M.Knight wrote:
I'll probably give Gun.Smoke a go one of these days. It is not even the first time I heard about its franticness.

LordHypnos wrote:
Definitely piqued my interest about Gun.Smoke too (if BIL hadn't enough already). That's definitely one of the old school games that I need to get around to trying.

Glad to hear the interest. It's really quite a special game, playing quite differently from your typical shmup despite its basic mechanics not suggesting anything unusual. I tend to prefer more fixed, static enemies and attacks in shmups, but I'll make an exception for this game. I'm not sure how random it actually is, but it's the sort of fun where you get to apply tactics on the fly based on simple techniques, as opposed to some other games where it can feel annoying having a plan ruined by a stray bullet or like busywork memorizing possibilities you may or may not see. It's brutally difficult but always feels fresh, even the first few stages.

M.Knight wrote:
Does Fairy Wars have that much milking? I mostly play it for survival and like the weapon system a lot because it feels so well-integrated and interactive, something I haven't found in most of the other Touhou games I've played. However, as I haven't tried my hand at scoring, I didn't put that much thought about the optimal scoring strategies involving the freeze mechanic. In fact I don't usually play Touhou games for score. Here, I suppose you have to graze a lot during the boss fights and the only damage you inflict on the bosses would be with the freeze and not the main shot?

In Fairy Wars the vast majority of your points (aside from the clear bonus, which is a fixed amount assuming you're reaching maximum life stock by the end of the game) comes from getting big freezes. The more freezes and the bigger the freezes, the more points. You also get bombs from performing freezes, which can be used to get even bigger freezes that aren't possible with normal freeze. So you generally want to spend as much time as possible on boss attacks getting as many big freezes as you can. It can even be worth it to spend bombs to get big freezes, and commit suicide to get more bombs and recharge your freeze gauge, since the spell card bonuses are pretty small in this game. It's kind of Raizing-ish how bombs, lives, and scoring (by freezing) intertwine.

Unlike most other Touhou games, grazing doesn't increase the value of point items, so you don't need to continuously graze milk. Grazing does, however, charge up your freeze gauge, so players will graze clusters of bullets to get quick charges and fit in more freezes. You want to defeat enemies using freeze rather than normal shot because they release "frozen" point items that are worth more than normal point items (and are autocollected); this is pretty minor compared to the score from the freezes themselves, but not inconsequential. This is only for kills, though; for just doing damage, there's no significant score difference between ice and normal shot. However, score players will often avoid the boss with their freezes, since freezing does a lot of damage and they want to keep the boss alive. Instead, they'll shoot the boss with the very edge of their normal shot, since shooting enemies charges up the freeze gauge but it doesn't matter how much of the shot hits/how much damage is dealt (hitting with only the edge of the shot charges freeze at the same rate as hitting dead-center).

All in all I find the scoring in Fairy Wars significantly more fun than in other Touhou games; I'd take freeze-milking over graze-milking any day, and most other forms of milking, really. The short length of the game as a whole also makes milking more bearable (even with milking it's not any longer than a "normal" shmup). However I still don't really like milking in general.

kane wrote:
Glad there is an extra week. Just rushed here before bed so that I can sub in Cambria Sword, which is the coolest shit conceived in recent memory.

I completely forgot about that game before you mentioned it, but it does look cool (interesting at the very least). May have to check it out when I have the time.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:02 pm 


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Shepardus wrote:
However I still don't really like milking in general.

Is there any logic behind this or is it just a feel? Personally I don't get at all how milking can be considered inherently a bad thing.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:53 pm 


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Nameschonvergeben wrote:
Shepardus wrote:
However I still don't really like milking in general.

Is there any logic behind this or is it just a feel? Personally I don't get at all how milking can be considered inherently a bad thing.

Maybe not "inherently" bad, but I have a two-second attention span.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:50 pm 



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Seeing a APB fan speak out against milking is intensely confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:18 pm 


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Shepardus wrote:
However, score players will often avoid the boss with their freezes, since freezing does a lot of damage and they want to keep the boss alive. Instead, they'll shoot the boss with the very edge of their normal shot, since shooting enemies charges up the freeze gauge but it doesn't matter how much of the shot hits/how much damage is dealt (hitting with only the edge of the shot charges freeze at the same rate as hitting dead-center).

All in all I find the scoring in Fairy Wars significantly more fun than in other Touhou games; I'd take freeze-milking over graze-milking any day, and most other forms of milking, really. The short length of the game as a whole also makes milking more bearable (even with milking it's not any longer than a "normal" shmup). However I still don't really like milking in general.

I knew about most of the ice-related mechanics in the game but wasn't aware that hitting with the shot's edges recharges the freeze jauge as much as with the center. That's interesting to know, though I guess I wouldn't be too motivated to try and optimize boss fights with that kind of advanced techniques.


Boss milking is also something I usually dislike, because the action is pretty repetitive and because it artificially lengthens the game's length while speedkilling is more exciting.
At first, learning how to milk a boss and see the point counter increase can be pretty encouraging and stimulating, but after a while it becomes a chore and feels like a deterrent for starting a run entirely, especially if you have a large amount of milkable bosses.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:30 pm 


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Obscura wrote:
Seeing a APB fan speak out against milking is intensely confusing.

If you're talking about me, I like a lot of things about the game, but probably won't ever play it seriously for score. Aside from the sheer length of all the milking, building a plan around all the different factors in the game, such as rank management, which characters are alive (for team runs), and resources is more than I want to think about. I've had a lot of fun with casual runs with random teams though.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 pm 


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Re: Boss milking and repetetivity
I've recently realized that I kind of like performing the same learned action multiple times as part of killing a boss, at least in some cases. I'm not sure why, but it's kind of satisfying.

Examples include the second phase of the final boss of Giga Wing 2 (note that my route is actually quite different from the example one there, but it doesn't really matter. Same principle), and the rose form of the Mars Matrix final boss (that one's real fucking hard, as well, FWIW, and the pattern is slightly easier the first time, but it's the same principle). I have been thinking about this and trying to figure out why it is, but I'm not totally sure. Probably at least partly to do with the rhythm you get into.

In the case of the GW2 boss, there's also a fair number of volcanons you can trigger which is always satisfying (ditto the cubes in the MM example, though scoring-wise they're pretty meaningless), and you can see the gradually increasing damage being done to the boss (wings blowing up). In both cases there are kind of circular movements around the screen going on, which might be part of it, and neither example lasts overly long, so it's probably pretty different from most boss milking in that respect. I haven't actually tried milking a boss in a shmup except for stage 1 boss of Mars Matrix, and the amount you can milk it is pretty minimal on account of the timer. Also, I feel like you don't really see many pattern repeats in that case. Most MM bosses can be killed way before they start repeating patterns, and for a substantial time bonus.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:28 pm 


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LordHypnos wrote:
Re: Boss milking and repetetivity
I've recently realized that I kind of like performing the same learned action multiple times as part of killing a boss, at least in some cases. I'm not sure why, but it's kind of satisfying.

Examples include the second phase of the final boss of Giga Wing 2 (note that my route is actually quite different from the example one there, but it doesn't really matter. Same principle), and the rose form of the Mars Matrix final boss (that one's real fucking hard, as well, FWIW, and the pattern is slightly easier the first time, but it's the same principle). I have been thinking about this and trying to figure out why it is, but I'm not totally sure. Probably at least partly to do with the rhythm you get into.


I've noticed this too, particularly in games that involve some form of meter (timed or item-driven alike). Shutting down Metal Black's third boss comes to mind - obliterating his trashball with your beam, rebuilding meter with the released POW, recovering right on cue to let rip once more. It's definitely a groove thing - build/release/repeat, without falling out of the rhythm and bringing the performance to a halt. :cool: Universally satisfying, like a particularly catchy riff. There's also a really obvious sexual analogy here, where skillfully orchestrated hard-earned releases are concerned. :lol:
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Last edited by BIL on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:41 pm 


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i hate bosses and especially milking.my only aim is to take the buggers out as quick as possible. i do like to take risks to point blank them though . i don't think milking can ruin a game unless you take score shit too serious.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:20 pm 


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BIL wrote:

I've noticed this too, particularly in games that involve some form of meter (timed or item-driven alike). Shutting down Metal Black's third boss comes to mind - obliterating his trashball with your beam, rebuilding meter with the released POW, recovering right on cue to let rip once more. It's definitely a groove thing - build/release/repeat, without falling out of the rhythm and bringing the performance to a halt. :cool: Universally satisfying, like a particularly catchy riff. There's also a really obvious sexual analogy here, where skillfully orchestrated hard-earned releases are concerned. :lol:

:lol:
I actually hadn't thought of the meter based mechanics, but that's definitely a strong component in both of my examples. You have to dodge some scary shit, then reflect bullets, then dodge some more scary shit while you wait for recharge.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:35 pm 


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Milking is badwrongfun for the same reason most enemy chaining systems are: anything that requires you to prolong the life of your target is inherently sinful.

You are a weapon. A killer. A beast.

Cut them to pieces. Bathe them in fire. Tear their goddamn throats out.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:25 am 


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The problem with milking is that it rewards repetitive behavior and it draws the game out for longer. If you're playing for score then you're probably also replaying the game a lot too. Multiple sessions of the same repetitive action for long periods of time is a good recipe for tedium. It's especially degenerate when there's no time limit to stop you from milking until the sun goes out.

Squire Grooktook wrote:
Milking is badwrongfun for the same reason most enemy chaining systems are: anything that requires you to prolong the life of your target is inherently sinful.


That's a good rule of thumb, I wouldn't call it an ironclad law. Macross 2 (Solid game! Try it out if you haven't!) is 90% speedkills, but it makes effective use of a few enemies you need to carefully delay killing to maximize your score. Avoiding or delaying kills makes up a big part of the rank and scoring shenanigans in Raizing games, and people like those well enough.


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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:29 pm 


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LordHypnos wrote:
Dangun Feveron:
I haven't spent that much time with this game, but from what little experience I've had it is incredibly fun. fast, sparse patterns, caravan-style bonus enemies, and discoman chaining (which has got to be one of the better scoring systems ever devised). Possible down sides are that it might be a little long for how difficult it is, and maybe just more difficult than I generally like in a game. The ship is also real twitchy if you want it to be fast enough, but at least the bullet patterns are designed around that.

It's actually only about an 18 minute long game, so I think the length hits a great sweet spot. It is definitely much more difficult than the average cave 1-ALL though, for sure.
Shepardus wrote:
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+ Fixed stage order (never liked the random stage order in Psikyo games...)

Amen to this. While I think Sengoku Blade struck the best version of this by having only 3 random stages and a random midboss order, I don't particularly care for this either.
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Milking is badwrongfun for the same reason most enemy chaining systems are: anything that requires you to prolong the life of your target is inherently sinful.

I see milking as being more of a neutral mechanic that frequently gets improperly implemented. If milking can be used interestingly in bursts or create a really satisfying risk/reward dynamic I think it can work.
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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:21 pm 


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Square_Air wrote:
I see milking as being more of a neutral mechanic that frequently gets improperly implemented. If milking can be used interestingly in bursts or create a really satisfying risk/reward dynamic I think it can work.

Yeah you could probably do something worthwhile with milking. Like spawn an enemy during a stage that shoots destructible, points-awarding missiles, but the stage's regular enemies are still coming so you need to decide whether the milking points are worth having to deal with more shots coming at you.


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 Post subject: Re: 15th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:27 pm 


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well raizing score players obviously like milking but i don't think many people like cat spider milking or esp rade boss milk unless they have ocd
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