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 Post subject: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it)?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:52 pm 



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I couldn't find a topic like this on here and felt like it should have a place.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:51 pm 


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My favorite of all time is Batsugun, and I play it on the Saturn. BUT, my favorite that has a distinctly different home port is Fire Shark: I like the Genesis version more than the arcade. It's a nice cruise 'em up.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:41 am 


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sky shark and twin cobra, because I played them in arcades a lot as a kid. after playing kyukyoku tiger in MAME a lot I think I prefer it to the US version though, CRAZY CONTROVERSIAL OPINION here but checkpoints are actually good in that type of STG


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:51 am 


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Tatsujin, arcade. Probably their overall best game. Second place is Same! Same! Same!, Mega Drive. Third place is probably Tatsujin Ou, arcade.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:07 am 


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Despatche wrote:
Tatsujin Ou, arcade.


Great game, but would have benefited from Dogyuun length stages.

And to answer the OP - Dogyuun.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:21 am 


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That's a creative suggestion!

The stage length really isn't a hard problem to fix, and it's because it's so easy to fix that it's not really a problem at all. People meme about it too much, really. More importantly, this only really started happening in the past like two years. Not sure why.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:52 am 


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Batsugun for me - one of their best IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:25 pm 



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Slap Fight. Cause it's the grand father of them all and I played a lot of it in the arcades.

Followed closely by Twin Cobra because bits of it (namely the tricopter/power up releaser) is also included in a LOT of shmups.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:51 pm 


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Asking people the same question for Rizing/8ing you'd get a clear winner in Garegga, Psikyo would be DB, Cave either DOJ or Futari.
But when it comes to Toaplan even if you let a poll open for a long time I doubt just a single title or two would easily come on top, or not by many voices, it's like asking people what flavour of ice cream they like.

I mean considering most of their shmups have had a massive influence on the genre for almost a decade of the most bubbling mid80-mid90 period up to today and probably forever, whether on the dev or the player side - and putting aside the tards calling old games 'dadshit' - there's always a couple and easily more Toaplan shmups people will appreciate, would it be Twin Cobra as much as Dogyuun or Fire Shark and Batsugun whatever.

For me it's Fire Shark and Dogyuun equally, really like I would say vanilla and strawberry, there's no particular preference both are yummy.
Yet almost as much and a hair behind; OutZone and VV.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:38 pm 



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I only like Batsugun.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:54 pm 


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My personal ranking in descending order, having cleared all of them:

V-V/Grind Stormer (MD port is unfortunately much weaker due to technical limitations)
Dogyuun
Out Zone
Kyuukyoku Tiger (I like Twin Cobra about the same, I also really enjoy both 16-bit ports; the Famicom version is fine for an 8-bit game but nothing extraordinary)
Hishouzame (hate the NES Sky Shark)
Same! Same! Same! (1P; really enjoy the MD port as well as Fire Shark arcade)
Tatsujin (my favourite version is the PCE one by far, MD and arcade about the same)
Slap Fight (I like all the versions/adaptations about the same)
Hellfire (1P version with checkpoints, prefer the MD port, PCE is a bit disappointing but still a fine game)
Vimana
Zero Wing (MD version and arcade about the same, PCE port is fairly lackluster)
Daisenpuu (arcade Twin Hawk I like considerably less, hate the MD port, PCE ports are a little bit better, yet still weaker than Daisenpuu arcade)
FixEight (Japanese version)
Tatsujin Ou (Truxton II minimally higher, I suppose)
Tiger-Heli (much prefer the 8-bit port here)
Batsugun Special
Batsugun


Despatche wrote:
People meme about it too much, really.

I don't know. When I was trying to get the clear I really started to hate the game and myself. You can have an exciting game that is hard. You can have an easy game that creates the illusion of excitement or is outright exciting. You can even have a boring, easy game although that's obviously not desirable. But boring and hard, that's a death sentence. Having to precisely take out the same dull enemy formations a dozen times in a row whilst soporific music plays becomes unbearable after a while, at least for me.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:33 pm 


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Perikles wrote:
I don't know. When I was trying to get the clear I really started to hate the game and myself. You can have an exciting game that is hard. You can have an easy game that creates the illusion of excitement or is outright exciting. You can even have a boring, easy game although that's obviously not desirable. But boring and hard, that's a death sentence. Having to precisely take out the same dull enemy formations a dozen times in a row whilst soporific music plays becomes unbearable after a while, at least for me.


It's a shame really. Game could have been something truly special, it has amazing sprite work too. Like you said though, death sentence.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:48 pm 



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tatsujin ou - arcade - best they ever did ... that I know of - never played Dogyuun :/ Thanks to this thread I probably should see about that one way or another...

twin cobra / Kyuukyoku Tiger - pc engine - because it seems the right fit for this game. Arcade is a good game, but honestly probably pre-dated me a bit for my idea of arcade grandeur... but as a home console game... yep.

Never got on with batsugun.

Sorry if off topic - what happened to toaplan rights/properties? ... the creditors/banks don't just own it do they?


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:57 pm 


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From best to worst

Batsugun Special
Batsugun
Out Zone
Hishouzame
Dogyuun
Kyuukyoku Tiger
Same! Same! Same!
Fixeight
V-V
Slap Fight
Daisenpuu
Hellfire
Tatsujin Ou
Vimana
Tatsujin
Zero Wing
Tiger-Heli
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:07 pm 


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My Toaplan Top 5 Arcade

Batsugun Special/Batsugun
V-V
OutZone
Twin Cobra/Kyuukyoku Tiger
Flying Shark

Apart from OutZone, I still have some 'unfinish business' with the other games...
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:34 pm 


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Flying Shark

This and Operation Wolf made me properly fall in love with video games as a kid. Especially given its age it looks superb, brilliant little tank and plane sprites. I also like the boss design - that you fight them during the end of the stage instead of a static screen (how many other games do this?), so you still get some stage elements to deal with alongside the varied bosses themselves.

It's also wonderfully straightforward to play, just power up and stay alive. As per usual with Toaplan you can recover from each checkpoint, though some are harder than others. And you can always count on Toaplan to deliver quality music!


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:54 pm 



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Batsugun original. I like the visuals better than Special (particularly, level 1 color pallet), and I think, the gameplay flows a little bit better than the Special version.

I also like Dogyun for its fantastic visuals and overall creativity, and Flying Shark for its fast bullets and checkpoint system. Despite the fact that I'm not big into shmups of this type, recovering in that game is just extremely fun.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:20 pm 


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Kyuukyoku Tiger. MD Ver for inescapable 4:3 donburi ramen steam blast. Buff men of war revealed, as checkpussies' screaming faces slough away like tallow. 凸(`ω´メ)

d0s wrote:
after playing kyukyoku tiger in MAME a lot I think I prefer it to the US version though, CRAZY CONTROVERSIAL OPINION here but checkpoints are actually good in that type of STG


Correct opinion. Image

Tatsuya Uemura: "The shooting game I envisioned is over when you don't return to a checkpoint after a miss because you are no longer creating a pattern." ("Toaplan Forever" interview translated @ gamengai)

Kyuukyoku Tiger Image Image Image
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Image


twin cobra Image Image Image
Spoiler: show
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:33 pm 


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Perikles wrote:
soporific music


What? I don't agree with this at all. With the exception of maybe stage 2 (which is still super cool-sounding), I find the OST to be pure upbeat happiness. So happy, in fact, that it kinda clashes with the theme (especially the last two stages). The last thing I would call it would be boring as you suggest.

I also don't get the in-general boring argument. It's a hard game, hard games require you to pay attention and execute your moves/route. How is that boring? Any breaks in the action are there to give you a rest. Timing out the stage 3 boss with safespots probably wasn't intended. Even doing that, I find there to be a lot of tension because messing up your "dance" with the boss will cause you to fail.

Tatsujin Ou is a legit good game, if a bit on the challenging side of things. It might be my favorite Toaplan game, I'm not 100% on it. The naysayers in recent years are quite perplexing.

The only Toa shmups I don't really care for are Tiger Heli (Hishou and Kyukyoku do it significantly better in every fashion) and Hellfire (I hate the weapon-cycle button, HATE it). All the rest are really good, even most of the home ports.

e:
BIL wrote:
"Toaplan Forever" interview translated @ gamengai


This was incredibly interesting to read, thanks for the link. I've already read the stuff at shmuplations and this seems a lot more in-depth. I really wonder about some of the things he couldn't talk about... the "crazy" stuff Toaplan was doing, what happened with the Gazelle CEO, the shmup he worked on with Yuge after Gazelle?!?


Last edited by OmegaFlareX on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:36 pm 


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OmegaFlareX wrote:
With the exception of maybe stage 2 (which is still super cool-sounding), I find the OST to be pure upbeat happiness.


Can't say much about the game itself either way, but I DEFEND STM is a real fat "sup motherfuckers?" tune. Nice and rude with its unhurried bombastic pulse.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:56 pm 


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OmegaFlareX wrote:
I also don't get the in-general boring argument. It's a hard game, hard games require you to pay attention and execute your moves/route. How is that boring?

It's formulaic to a point of being a perfectly synchronized game of tag. It always works in a predictable pattern you have to precisely react to, take the hard part of stage 5: one big ship coming from the upper left, enemy wave from the lower left, big ship from the upper right, enemy wave from the lower right, big ship from the upper left, enemy wave from the upper left, big ship from the upper right, enemy wave from the upper right... If you mess up too badly, the game horribly snowballs (since you can't kill an enemy wave you have to move to the other side of the screen for dodging purposes, meaning yet another enemy wave shows up, meaning you have to bomb; if you don't have any bombs you're going to die etc.). I'm personally not the biggest fan of Raiden II or DX, either, but at least those games don't just endlessly repeat some waves in order to wear you down, you have organically crafted stages. Even freaking Battlantis has a lot of variety in its stages. Half of the bosses in Tatsujin Ou are just dumb, too: the third boss everyone times out, the fourth boss everyone bombs, the fifth boss is almost impossible at high rank. Great design. The basic conditions of the game are fine, the meretricious way of inflating the difficulty is not.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:24 pm 


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Out Zone's my favorite. It has a great sense of speed when you've got all the upgrades and are pushing forward, the difficulty ramps up such that the bullets become fast and intense but never impossibly ridiculous. It's forgiving (it gives tons of bombs and there aren't many levels of upgrades you have to recover, and extends in the first loop are pretty generous if you're getting bomb bonuses) but not so much so that deaths lose their impact. It's also got some fun level geometry since unlike most vertical shooters it actually has terrain that adds distinct character to each stage. There are some places where you can fall into a pit and die instantly, but a lot of it can be touched without harm and be used as cover which gives some extra tactical options, which I like. Its soundtrack is one of my favorite shmup soundtracks too, and is one of the few where I like every track in it (this is actually the most important part).

trap15's Same! Same! Same! hack is fun too - intense and has reasonable upgrade recovery, somewhat like Out Zone. The removal of speed upgrades in particular makes it far less annoying than either the original game or Fire Shark in my opinion. My main gripe is that the bullets get so fast that deaths can feel somewhat arbitrary (one instant I'm doing just fine and the next I'm dead and it didn't even feel that different from a good run).

I also like Batsugun (both regular and special, but special a bit more). Straightforward shooting and dodging action in a vein similar to Cho Ren Sha 68k (appropriate, since CRS68k was significantly influenced by the game). Scoring's somewhat asinine but what I do like is that it's simple to incorporate tricks into a run so it feels like I have a clear path to incrementally improve. IMO it's actually a good thing that the Special version counterstops when it does because after that point is when optimizing scoring in that game becomes really annoying.

I would probably like Tatsujin Ou more if it weren't as hard as it is. The length by itself doesn't kill the game for me but it does make it tiresome to practice and memorize, and the repetition means I really have to try to memorize it rather than it coming naturally like in some other games where challenges are more distinct. And yeah I loath the bosses. I do like the music though.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:46 pm 


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I like Outzone a lot. Than probably Hishouzame.

OmegaFlareX wrote:
I also don't get the in-general boring argument. It's a hard game, hard games require you to pay attention and execute your moves/route. How is that boring? Any breaks in the action are there to give you a rest. Timing out the stage 3 boss with safespots probably wasn't intended. Even doing that, I find there to be a lot of tension because messing up your "dance" with the boss will cause you to fail.


I'm surprised anyone would make the argument that hard = good in this genre, where hard is the default.

If that were true, I could just give up on all other aspects of my game design and just repeat one endless bullet barf at the player for 30 minutes straight, and I know it won't be boring no matter how repetitive it is if it's somewhat challenging.

I know that's not exactly the case with tatsujin-ou, but I'm just trying to make a point yes: you can be boring and hard at the same time.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:49 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I'm surprised anyone would make the argument that hard = good in this genre, where hard is the default.

I'm not surprised, that's basically what CAVE's been doing with their TLBs for over a decade.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:46 am 


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Fire Shark is my top choice, it was the first Toaplan game I put heavy practice into, only to never finish the game. Tatsujin Oh is fine too, though I'm not good at it. Snow Bros, while not a shmup, is a nice departure from Toaplan from their usual games.

1) Fire Shark (get the fire, feel like a madman, till that one tiny bullet finds your biplane, then spin out of control and run into something)
2) Tatsujin Oh
3) Snow Bros
4) Batsugun
5) Kyukyoku Tiger
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:15 pm 


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Having not played all of them, I guess my favorites would be Twin Cobra MD for the challenge and Zero Wing MD for the fun and music.

I also have a soft spot for the aesthetics/music on Tasujin Ou, even though I only played it leisurely up to stage 2 and have no idea at all about the difficulty meanderings described by Perikles.

All of the plane-based ones (Same Same Same, Hishouzame, Daisenpuu) are meh to me, probably because of firing rates being excessively capped and planes often being painfully slow and underpowered upon death.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:52 pm 


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I think Tatsujin Oh would benefit greatly from the overall upbeat music of Toaplan. For whatever reason they changed it so much for this game I even thought it was done by a different person. It's much more calm and soothing. And then you have levels with long stretches where nothing really happens (like in stage 4 when you're flying over the city). I can see why people think it's boring.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:02 pm 


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i like batsugun special and twin cobra the most i think.. flying shark is also great but twin cobra wins cos i played it a lot on arcade as a kid plus i like helicopters.
batsugun special i like cos it has that manic modern style but still retains that toaplan feel.. not many games like that.dangun,donpachi and original mushi modes have a similar feel i guess
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:24 am 


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Although I haven't cleared all the toaplan stuff yet, heres my personal ranking based on what I've played:
Outzone
Dogyuun
Fixeight
Truxton
Twin Cobra/ Kyukyoku Tiger
Batsugun/Batsugun Special
Flying Shark/ Hishouzame
Fire Shark
Vimana
Tastujin Oh/Truxton II

To add my two cents to the " Tastujin Oh is actually good/stop memin on this good game" I am absolutely certain that anyone going for a serious 1cc clear would realize how many flaws the game has aftering investing time into it. Even the first boss has to be takin out in a highly specific pattern w/ using bombs if you want a chance, not including the 3rd and 4th bosses being terrible bosses. I've have only gotten to the stg 4 boss in actual runs, but based on practice of stg 5 savestates, the stage design is not designed in an engaging way for the player. Music alone can't save this game's pacing.

Play Dogyuun instead. Released the same year, and a far more interesting game to play, even with its long length.
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 Post subject: Re: What is your favorite Toaplan shooter (and version of it
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:11 am 


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Same!Same!Same! or Hishouzame. Probably latter. Japanese arcade versions only.
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