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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:44 am 


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Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2712
Location: ND, USA
Thanks for that guide - it's a great source of information on some of Momoiro's eccentricities. I'd been putting together a guide based on my observations, but your is so well laid out I think it's not necessary. A few thoughts to add to the discussion:

Score
Quote:
Every bullet that lands on a destructible object will increase the score.
When you lose a heart, the score will decrease for an amount.


The score gain for shooting only applies to the right shot; you gain 140 points per second of uninterrupted forward shot contact. I'm quite sure the back shot doesn't give you any points at all, for tick damage or enemy destruction (even on bosses). I think the others all give the same point value for killing enemies but after noticing the back shot's 0 point value I think I need to take a closer look at some more replays.

I'm almost certain you don't lose score for losing a heart - I checked a few replays of mine and just don't see this happening in a direct fashion (unlike penalties like the boss timer penalty). I don't think there's any sort of clear bonus, either.

The initial boss time penalty is -120 score/sec. I guess I've never gone long enough to notice this increasing - probably deserves a test run, along with testing whether rank is the determining factor for how long you have until the penalty kicks in. I expect it doesn't have much impact on how one should fight bosses - if you're not going for milking you'll want to kill them as quickly as possible. If you are, you'll probably be outearning the penalty until you run out of health.

Finally, with the score bug it's very important to be aware of whether you have an empty slot or not. Even after knowing about the bug I've triggered it because I threw a bomb then bought another one before it had cleared off the HUD. I toyed with the idea that the bug could help bump me up to 50k before I had earned that much - but it would cost 25k money and probably take several stages to pull off at which point the gain would be pretty minimal.

Money
I don't have much to add here, except to say that money is going to be by far your biggest contributor to SMART score (in my highest scoring run I think money was close to 60% of the total). The lowest value crystal is something like 360 Y - a single crystal contributes more than a full plant. This means that managing your purchases is extremely important. You'd rather lose health than autobomb, you'd rather your water gun stay at its default than throw 30k into upgrading it - if you can swing it, it would be best to not upgrade your health to the max. And so on.

I'm not sure missing crystals has an impact on rank; I can't recall a single time noticing my rank being any number other than a multiple of 5. But I do make a point of grabbing every crystal I can - worth testing. Any idea how long you have to stop shooting before they disappear?

How many upgrades does each weapon have? I don't think the graphic you buy it on (as they cycle through different attributes) impacts the upgrade but would be good to hear if you think so as well. Is the bomb upgrade all about screen coverage?

Animal
Plants release 300 animal worth of tokens. If you're trying to decide between a plant and a treasure, treasure is by far the most valuable and doesn't lead to rank increase.

As far as I can tell the meter fills at 1,500 animal. Animal chips don't contribute to the meter.

Scroll direction has a big impact on animals. If the stage is scrolling backward, they'll scroll to the right - which is usually away from you and behind your enemies. This is a big part of why stage 11 is a wall: almost every animal you generate is whisked away unless you put yourself in a lot of danger or throw a bomb to put yourself right in the action.

Time
So the game allows you to speed up the scroll speed to compensate for its length - because of the time penalty, one might think there would be a scoring benefit to this. But enemies don't seem to spawn or move faster, so surely fewer of them spawn the faster the scroll goes. Plants and treasures are harder to take advantage of. At max speed it seems like you might shave 15 minutes or so off the game - only about 54k worth of SMART. It's possible that one or two notches doesn't handicap you and provides a small benefit, or that certain sections of stages can be sped up without consequence - but I kind of doubt it's worth playing with. Which is a shame because it's an interesting system.

Other things
Drops
The big question I still have is how does one maximise money/animal drops from enemies? I get good results by trying to use full charges, but it doesn't feel consistent. I'm unsure if the weapon you use has an impact on it - because the front shot generates score just by making contact, does it generate fewer drops, for example? Does the back shot generate the most money or animal to compensate for its score penalty? Are there hard rules to this, or does every enemy have its own ideal way to destroy it?

The amount of each dropped seems to increase as the game goes on, but this could just be that there are more enemies in the later levels. Or perhaps rank influences it - or maybe even shot level. Or maybe Extra versions of levels give more drops. Damned if I know.

Shopping
Does buying life when at full do anything? Part of me feels it must (like, I feel this is why the bomb buying bug exists - there's supposed to be some sort of score bonus for buying while at max, but they messed it up) but I've never thrown the money away on a run to test it out.

Stage 11
I also have no idea what triggers different stage 11 bosses. I don't think it's random because I get the same boss 80% of the time - but I don't get the impression they're based on rank, either. They're all pretty equally unfun and unmilkable but it would be nice to know.

Routing
Once I feel I understand everything well enough, I'd like to theorycraft which route provides the highest score - through enemy drops, treasures, and boss milking, primarily. Maybe around avoiding certain bosses (Sable from Mountain B for example is awful at any decent rank and provides essentially no milking opportunity. Her stage is empty as well.) as well. Also considering if suicide milking on Momoko provides the best return, or if there's another stage that does? (each round of getting bodied on stage 11 gets me roughly 100k, and I can imagine a couple of bosses that could return the same or more. In theory, it's probably possible, to double KO Momoko - I've been killed by things that died after I did and give me points. But let's be serious).

It might even be worth skipping a lot of animals as the fewer shops you get the less rank will increase and the less you'll need to spend just to keep yourself alive. Though I think this depends on the answer to what influences the amount of money dropped - if rank is a big part of it then you don't want to be stingy.

Real Talk
There's five letters left in the alphabet (unlocks stop at Route U) and I can't believe there's no all stages mode. I suspect it's because all routes share the same scoreboard or because the game is already an hour long, but honestly.
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:11 pm 


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You said you're writing a guide and it seems necessary, but oh my look at the size of the information there!
That's a lot of new information I didn't know, I am glad for the sharing.

I was streaming a 'research' run few days ago, and you can watch the video now. I tried to list all the rank decreases, boss par time, boss destruction bonus, and few moments that clarify it's only Front Flame that gives a score for dealing a damage.

There are obvious wrong sentences in my guide now with all the new info, so I need to modify them! :D

Including losing a heart not causing score loss - I think I was not aware of the penalty at the moment I saw the score decreasing. It's probably that the penalty just got into action right before I died that made me think that way.

Boss Time Penalty (I was keep calling this 'Par Time', after seeing one 'concept' entry in Giant Bomb with the same name - I think I am gonna keep saying it that way just because it's a familiar term to me now) is -1 score/frame. When you make the game go crazy enough, it ends up only giving -20 score/sec(?). So I think it's depending on whatever smallest time the game can run on, instead of frames. There are few moments where the game doesn't constantly give defined score penalty, and trying to do double on the next frame. Like, the first-digit should go 0-7-4-1-8-5-2-9-6-3-... but instead it sometimes go like 0-7-4-4-8-5-3-2-6-...
Tower B (Stage 11) first boss's first phase, two orbs, are separately counted toward Par Time. So when you exceed a Par Time in this phase, you always exceed two at a time, as long as both orbs are alive.

I am happy to know that you are telling about the bomb not instantly go off the HUD. I thought I am keep getting score too low, and there were moments I use a bomb to buy a new bomb instantly after, while I am having a full stack.

Money
I doubt testing the crystal rank impact would be easy - crystals not retrieved are shown in just few pixels, and then - if my guess is right, that they stay visible 'then' invisible - become invisible for a brief time until they're truly gone. So I don't think you can see a crystal actually disappearing... I hope my run video would help seeing if this is really the factor to the rank. :(

Crystals will likely become invisible faster if you deploy more than 3 weapons, just like how treasures not retrieved disappear for the same reason. But like the treasures, crystals disappeared this way will return back to the visible state but they will eventually become invisible - again if my guess on 'first stay pixels then become invisible' is right.

I started to think that the graphic shown at the moment you buy is the upgrade you get. And each weapon upgrade has 5 graphics cycling, so total of upgrade for each weapon could be 5. I think I saw Down Sprinkle upgrade only showing Twin Laser graphic in later game, but I need to confirm after watching more videos.

I have yet no idea about what Bomb Level upgrade would actually affect. My guess is it increases the lasting time. I need to watch more videos for this one too.

Animal
I was thinking that one full plant fills up a fifth of the animal soul gauge, so I think you're right on the exact number.

I was happy to find that some stages with abnormal scroll direction is not just the graphic! The same way you described, the scroll affects the trace of animal on City B too! When the scroll briefly stops, the animals will also not scroll away! In Stage 11 I tried to kill popcorn enemies and La.Gorilla (the big ones with two arms) behind them so I get most of the animals. It is certainly dangerous to do.

Time
This is the reason why I want to call my guide just covering the basics. Such insight is something I can't provide by my own! :D
I have no clear observation on the scroll speed at the moment...

Other things
Shopping
I am pretty sure I tend to buy life at full stock in my earlier runs. I need to watch my early runs again to see what changes.

Stage 11
First time I thought the bosses are tied to each route, then I saw Kachirou getting Acidic Princess in Route U, where I always get Paladin Kilauea. It could be related to rank or something else... Butler and the Princess were the rarest one I could see in my runs.

Routing
One of my runs ended with the Double KO Momoko. I got the boss destruction points, but the game ended after.

Real Talk
At least I am really happy for having Route U, I didn't know it's a randomized route. It's sad to not have all stage routes though, and that even in 'two full area' routes you have to listen to the same music 2~3 times because all stages in an area mostly have the same stage music. I really hope Shohei could make stage music for all stages and that is included in the game in similar to how M2 includes various soundtrack to each game. All we get is just suspiciously named 'Rejection' tracks. :(

Momoko's few patterns really killing me, they're single-handedly killing all my clear attempts recently, do you know how to properly handle them? :cry:

Also I want to post my guide on this forum, but I have no idea how to properly post it there: I tried to find the meaning of those acronyms for an hour and then gave up. :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:42 pm 


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Joined: 07 Nov 2005
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There was a japanese player grinding this out after launch who got over 4600000 scores. Pretty sure there's no videos though. I remember messing around with 500 starting rank before dropping the game back then, that is really brutal


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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:19 pm 


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Location: ND, USA
4.6m - yikes. Do you remember if they ever specified the route?
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 pm 


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Route S was highest, route Q also over 4 million.


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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:05 am 


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Dinir, I thinks ST: Momoiro Underground works just find for a Strategy forum thread.

More research - good! The -1 rank for Crystals disappearing is real! From your video, the boss of City A3 (the one that makes the big purple rings) is very much worth milking - his big rings are worth 3k each. (You say the boss kill there is worth 6k but I think it's 8k based on the video). This would be one to milk as long as you can even though there's not much money or animal in it.

Did some testing myself on City 1 of Route A. All of this applies there and maybe nowhere else.

Boss Time Penalty/Par Time
The penalty on City 1 progresses something like this:

Code:
Stage 1 | Begins ~50 seconds into fight | -60 score/second
Stage 2 | Begins 30 seconds after that  | -120/sec, white shots begin
Stage 3 | Begins 30 seconds after that  | -180/sec, increased aggression
Stage 4 | Begins 30 seconds after that  | -240/sec, increased aggression
Stage 5 | Begins 30 seconds after that  | -300/sec, increased aggression
Boss Dies | About 20 seconds after that | no point gain


I only lasted to the end starting at rank 0. The boss actually starts losing health at stage 1, but it really speeds up at stage 5 (if you haven't damaged him with weapons, stage 5 starts with him at 50% health). I think stage 5 should have lasted 15 seconds, but the boss had its state change a few seconds into the stage where it didn't take damage for 5 seconds. So once you start losing score, you have 2 minutes 15 seconds to finish him off so you can expect to lose 22,500 score from beginning to end. I'm not sure exactly when the score stops falling - by the time he died I was at 0. :?

I tried this starting at 0, 100, and 200 and the timings were pretty much the same. I'm not sure rank has any impact on this, thought I only did three lazy test runs on the first level.

Rank
The things I can tell Rank impacts:

How many enemies spawn (at the very beginning 3 lines of 5 Hiko spawn, at 100 3 lines of 10 Hiko spawn. And at 0, the first rocket that falls is alone, at 100 there are three of them)
The turrets some enemies carry
Bullet density
Bullet Speed
Bullet Strength (Red, Blue, White - blue being difficult to clear, white being impossible to clear)
In some cases, whether enemies do contact damage (again, see the Hiko at the beginning)
Drops? (see below)

(I was surprised to see that Rank explained some, but not all, of the changes I'd attributed between City 1 and it's Extra version. There's extra enemies, but at no rank are the helicopters replaced with those little robots)

Drops
On each of my three runs I went in to the boss fight with:
Code:
Rank 0   | 19,305 score | 52,000 money | 10,020 animal
Rank 100 | 19,243 score | 42,000 money | 13,409 animal
Rank 200 | 19,645 socre | 64,770 money | 15,966 animal

(I think I missed a couple of treasures early on during Rank 100 because I was trying to take care of the extra rockets and not succeeding)

So I think the broad answer is that higher rank leads to move money and more animal. I suspect it's not just number of enemies but I'm a fairly inconsistent player, so the 13k extra money could have just been that. Score didn't get much of a boost but that's probably because on the first level it's hard to kill the extra enemies.

Shopping
Buying life at full life just gives you 2,500 score. I don't see the point except to save you from throwing SMART away with a bad purchase.

Misc.
Flowers can be hit with the front shot for tick points. This is worthless information.

I'd like to have some time to do a couple of runs soon. :D
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:29 am 


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where can i get this game


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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:35 am 


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Joined: 27 Dec 2018
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Legendary Hoamaru wrote:


This is currently the only official seller who ships to outside of Japan.

Dinir wrote:
I bought it from Rakuten using Zenmarket. Total cost was ¥8,598 (the game and the book were ¥5,400), and I have waited total of 11 days - Buying using Zenmarket took a day, Shipping inside Japan took 5 days, Zenmarket took 2 days + Sunday to send the package.


There are many sellers who only ships inside Japan, but you can get a copy from them the way I did. Also ゲームショップ1983 has a towel with Furukawa Motoaki's sign and a novelty CD as bonus items and ゲーム探偵団 has the Novelty CD. This novelty CD seems like containing 5 tracks by Furukawa.
These sellers would be interesting if you're a fan of Furukawa Motoaki, but... I think the reason this game being this hard and expensive to obtain is because of him. :evil:
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:15 pm 


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Although the newly found and actually correct infos are not added, I copied my guide to the Strategy section of the forum! I will modify some wrong sentences the next spare time I get!

I am not a great shmup player, as I only have played 3 shmups deeper than casual players would do so far. I think I should refrain from writing and including actual strategies for each stage and scoring tactics. I personally hope CSF could write about them! :)

Update: the guide is now updated with all the info given from CSF! :D
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:00 pm 


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One of the games sold on M's Art (read 'only distributed via physical packages') is coming on Steam!!!
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1046980/HORGIHUGH/

Hope for the online debut of Mogura is being closer...!
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:22 am 


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I’m writing up my thoughts on the different stages and bosses now and will post them in the Strategy thread.

But I think we’d be better off if a genuinely good player were to come back to Momoiro and really give it a look from a serious player’s perspective. @zaarock :P

It would be fantastic if Momoiro made its way to Steam. I imagine a lot of people had been waiting for some sort of digital distribution until they just forgot about it. I do wonder what price they’d try to sell it at though - it still retails for 4K yen. :/
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 Post subject: Re: Momoiro Underground (hori, hey1230 x Motoaki Furukawa)
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 11:57 pm 


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In a just world, it would continue to retail for ¥4000 no matter where it ended up. But in a just world, we wouldn't have digital distribution either.
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