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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:33 am 


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I think I found a hidden track from the OST :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGykwC0fdJ4
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:15 am 



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Stage 26 is a real bitch.

I got real close once. Then I went in last time with 4 lives and choked.

Ugh...
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:12 pm 


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nekketsu wrote:
I skipped the 360 version after checking out some videos. I was so underwhelmed by the visuals that I just put it on the "some day" mental backburner. For every reply here there's probably multiple lurkers/guests who really dug this thread and are now digging Eschatos.


I had a similar reaction when the 360 version was originally announced. Shmups are kind of hard to show off in screenshots - they can read as bland or cluttered. They really look a lot better in motion, because a lot of the beauty of shmups is only apparent when you see how the bullets move.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:02 pm 


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A lot of shmups actually start to look kinda bad in motion. The real problem is that most people have a completely busted understanding of "bland" (as well as a lot of other words that have become euphemisms for "I don't personally like this").
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:13 pm 


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Even seeing Eschatos in motion pre-release, I thought it looked pretty junky. This is a game that needs to be played and played again; the systems are so straightforward and absolutely perfect that they don't give any indication of how refined they are just from watching a video. Not to mention there's a ton of depth to the world presented in the game as well; I would say this game is at or near the apex of videogame storytelling without using any text or traditional plot devices at all.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:34 am 


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Blackbird wrote:
nekketsu wrote:
I skipped the 360 version after checking out some videos. I was so underwhelmed by the visuals that I just put it on the "some day" mental backburner. For every reply here there's probably multiple lurkers/guests who really dug this thread and are now digging Eschatos.


I had a similar reaction when the 360 version was originally announced. Shmups are kind of hard to show off in screenshots - they can read as bland or cluttered. They really look a lot better in motion, because a lot of the beauty of shmups is only apparent when you see how the bullets move.


Yeah, and even then watching videos can sometimes seem underwhelming. Gotta get your hands dirty to appreciate some gems.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:45 am 



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I have to say, Special World, your enthusiasm convinced me to try this game and I absolutely loved it.

This game is so creative it's almost like the bland screenshots and tired enemy designs are there to hide all the cool stuff this game does.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:03 am 


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Special World wrote:
the systems are so straightforward and absolutely perfect that they don't give any indication of how refined they are just from watching a video. Not to mention there's a ton of depth to the world presented in the game as well; I would say this game is at or near the apex of videogame storytelling without using any text or traditional plot devices at all.

Loving every hyperbolic post you make about this game, but the consensus I gather from lurking is that the Advanced mode is not straightforward and not absolutely perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:43 am 


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I think you can safely assume every post praising Eschatos is talking about Original mode, the balance in Advanced and Time Attack is kind of wack.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:06 am 


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Time attack is unbalanced too?? How? Because for a mode about doing stuff as fast as possible, it seems straightforward to me.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:23 am 


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I'll leave Special World to explain that, as he's undoubtedly more familiar with it than I am.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:10 pm 


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most people are talking about advanced mode. both here and everywhere else, you'll always see people going on about how original is "too simple" or whatever.

advanced only seems unbalanced with purple items, and tbh i don't think anyone's really researched it fully. i do think there are areas where you could grab a yellow F for to turn the screen purple and then powerup again.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:40 pm 


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awry wrote:
Special World wrote:
the systems are so straightforward and absolutely perfect that they don't give any indication of how refined they are just from watching a video. Not to mention there's a ton of depth to the world presented in the game as well; I would say this game is at or near the apex of videogame storytelling without using any text or traditional plot devices at all.

Loving every hyperbolic post you make about this game, but the consensus I gather from lurking is that the Advanced mode is not straightforward and not absolutely perfect.

It's true; Original mode is the only one of the three that's "absolutely perfect." However, I think calling something "unbalanced" really is a much more scathing indictment than either mode deserves. In shmups jargon, something is unbalanced when there's this massive, gamebreaking scoring differential, or a hard core cap that's not high enough. Think stage 5 in DFK, overflow in SDOJ, score cap in Futari Ultra, or final boss scoring in Ketsuipachi. To me, that's what it means to be unbalanced.

Now, Eschatos Advanced I don't consider to be unbalanced at all. It seems to me like there's a very natural progression to the scoring, and I can't point to any single spot in the game and say "look, things break down here." Really it's just a rather strange mode, but that doesn't make it in any way bad—when I first started out I played Advanced almost exclusively, because coming off of Cave games Original mode seemed too basic for my tastes. I do wish the gold F-Bombs didn't decrease your multiplier and power level, because they seem to be a very under-utilized scoring mechanic, and maybe that blue F-Bombs didn't exist at all, because they're a huge nuisance. But I don't know that the game would be any better if those changes were made... maybe it would. Or maybe it would erode some of the weirdness that makes Advanced mode so unique? Hard to say. But the only way I could see Advanced being "unbalanced" is if there were unlimited boss milking. But I just checked on the first boss, and it actually times out pretty quickly. So if anything it's just got this mild Pink Sweets bullet absorption mechanic, which I think is fine as long as it isn't pushed to excess (which, let's face it, it kind of is in Pink Sweets itself). I think Advanced is a great game mode, even if it's not immaculately flawless. Sometimes it's the minor flaws (or in this case, minor weirdness) that make a game cool.

Time Attack is unbalanced in a unique way. It's not like the scoring is broken to my knowledge, but it is overgenerous with its time-based extends. I really think this mode should have had a difficulty select like the other modes, because as things are it's good for scoring and not at all good for survival (unless you're just starting with the game, which makes it a fun and easy 1CC, something I welcome in the genre). I think if things were harder and the timing were tighter, it'd be an incredible mode. As things are, I still like it.

So you're right, the other modes aren't immaculate like Original mode is. But I love them to death anyways, and I'm not even sure that I like Original more than Advanced. They're both very good and very different. Time Attack mode could use some work, yeah, but it's still really fun.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:49 pm 


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Picked up the Steam port.

Honestly the ports issues are exaggerated. I get a brief second of lag during the intro and a slight bit during a (enemy-less) transition or two, and beyond that it runs perfectly fine.

I still think stage 3's 3d sections are awful and ruin the entire stage (on hard at least, on normal it's too easy to care), but other then that I still love the hell out of this game. Crimzon Clover might be the king of pc danmaku but I'd rather be playing this any day of the week.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:49 am 


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There do seem to be some minor framedrops (GTX 580 & 3.2 GHz Quad-core) but I'm sure they'll iron that out.

I tried Advanced Normal and now like it more than the Original. It's more forgiving on chaining when you are powered up due to the W-shot getting more reach and the F-shot being a bit wider, but at the cost of max shield capacity. At least if you take an F item, you can get +1 back on the multiplier at your next P pickup.

Seeing the first of Qute on Steam is a great thing. Hopefully there's more on the way from them. I bought it to support the release, and it's good to have a PC version in case anything happens to my 360.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:04 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Honestly the ports issues are exaggerated. I get a brief second of lag during the intro and a slight bit during a (enemy-less) transition or two, and beyond that it runs perfectly fine.


Sadly this hasn't been my experience, it has stuttered at key points during my run, and this slowdown/stutter has messed up some of my runs. There should be no excuses for slowdown in a game like this where reactions are so vital. I hope this bug gets patched soon.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:02 am 


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mastermx wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
Honestly the ports issues are exaggerated. I get a brief second of lag during the intro and a slight bit during a (enemy-less) transition or two, and beyond that it runs perfectly fine.


Sadly this hasn't been my experience, it has stuttered at key points during my run, and this slowdown/stutter has messed up some of my runs. There should be no excuses for slowdown in a game like this where reactions are so vital. I hope this bug gets patched soon.


Not everyone is having frame rate drops but looking at the steam forums it is affecting a number of users even with decent PCs.
Here: http://steamcommunity.com/app/378770/discussions/0/523897653307608403/

Blackbird@Degica had noted in that thread
Quote:
For now, you could adjust graphics settings and turn the detail of some effects down to increase framerates. We'll look into it on our end and see if there's anything else we can do to optimize framerates better.


For me personally I don't experience any drops even during transitions and my PC is from 2009. I have upgraded the GPU and rest is much the same (looking at MSI AB, the frame rate log shows 60fps, with drops to ~58fps once or twice for a split second throughout a play though)


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:13 am 


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Last time I played the framerate started having serious problems in the last few minutes of the game. Had a bit more issues during the rest of the game itself, though they were momentary.

I wonder if my PC just needs a reboot, like Crimzon Clover needs after a couple days?
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:50 pm 


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I'm thinking of switching the resolution down to 1280 x 720 or 1280 x 800 until a later patch. I have been using 1920 x 1200 until now.
EDIT: Didn't help much. Sticking to 1200p.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:08 pm 


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I am having a lot of trouble with this game. I just keep dying, and I'm used to hard shmups. I love difficult games, but I keep dying in the silliest of ways in eschatos without knowing why. I'm not sure whether it is getting accustomed to the changes in perspective, the fast ship speed, or the nature of the hitboxes. The bullets just linger on screen for so long, and I have some long term habits from playing other shmups in just thinking that they should have gone, but they stay on screen for quite some time.

In a way some of the patterns in this game remind me of Dangun Feveron, and the ship speed too.

I'm playing this game on original hard, and there is a certain section in stage 2 with the midboss where I mostly lose atleast one life. I should learn how to time my F bombs. But I think I've spoken too much about this, might go to the strategy section of the forum to express my shmupping grievances. With all this said, I am loving this game, I just have to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I am so used to the cave type shmups that even my eye movement and where I concentrate on screen has to be altered.

Can't wait for the slowdown bug fix patch. I'm hoping qute release the patch soon, because sometimes the stutter/fps drop really ruins the experience
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:30 pm 


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mastermx wrote:
I am having a lot of trouble with this game. I just keep dying, and I'm used to hard shmups. I love difficult games, but I keep dying in the silliest of ways in eschatos without knowing why. I'm not sure whether it is getting accustomed to the changes in perspective, the fast ship speed, or the nature of the hitboxes. The bullets just linger on screen for so long, and I have some long term habits from playing other shmups in just thinking that they should have gone, but they stay on screen for quite some time.

In a way some of the patterns in this game remind me of Dangun Feveron, and the ship speed too.

I'm playing this game on original hard, and there is a certain section in stage 2 with the midboss where I mostly lose atleast one life. I should learn how to time my F bombs. But I think I've spoken too much about this, might go to the strategy section of the forum to express my shmupping grievances. With all this said, I am loving this game, I just have to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I am so used to the cave type shmups that even my eye movement and where I concentrate on screen has to be altered.

Can't wait for the slowdown bug fix patch. I'm hoping qute release the patch soon, because sometimes the stutter/fps drop really ruins the experience

1) Start on Original Easy. Once you can beat that, move to Original Normal. Once you can beat that, move to Original Hard. Eschatos doesn't have stereotypical garbage "novice" modes; the difficulties build on each other in a meaningful way that fosters player progression. If you can already beat Original Easy and Normal, then just ignore this.
2) During perspective changes, listen for the "ding" noise of those green homing lasers. For the most part they're the real threats. If you hear one coming, SHIELD.
3) For that matter, shield during any section that you think is particularly difficult. Bust through some of those patterns. And always watch out/listen for green lasers, seriously.
4) Reduce your ship speed by 1 if you want. I p much always play on speed 2 instead of 3.
5) I honestly have no idea where or how big the hitbox is.
6) There's only so much you can do with timing F-bombs since they're semi-random. Try to learn each section as best you can, and use the F-Bombs as on-the-fly assistance rather than "And at this point I will grab the F-Bomb." There's one part in particular that's really tough to chain without an F-Bomb (I think there's a swooping wave of purple hexagons after the third boss?) and sometimes it just doesn't show up exactly when I want it to.
7) I'd say the game gives you a lot more freedom to do what you want instead of what the game dictates you do, so definitely try and tap-dodge enemy attacks away from yourself and capitalize on your wide/straight shot while breaking through tough patterns with the shield. Again, play on Easy and Normal first because it'll give you a lot of practice with the patterns and shielding without such a high volume of shots.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:39 pm 


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I find easy and normal too easy for me personally. Perhaps it's I don't switch between wide shot and straight shot enough imo. I also think that it will just take time for me to get used to the changes in perspective during gameplay.

I def think that I am not aware of the hitbox, I am so used to tiny hitboxes that I just expect things not to hit. This is a huge reason for my mess ups, but Hoamaru did say that I could unlock being able to see that.

Might try reducing ship speed to 2, I've always played at 3 because I wanted to increase my multiplier but perhaps 2 would be better for survival.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:16 am 


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TIPZ 4 ESCHATOS

1: Don't underestimate Original-Hard. It's 100% arcade difficulty and you're not gonna just waltz through it without trying.

2: Speed 3 is better for both survival and scoring IMO. You want to be killing things as fast as possible all the time so that there are less bullets on screen. If you need to micro dodge, just shield.

3: The Shield is both an offensive and defensive tool. There's an enemy on the other side of the screen that you need to hit but the path is blocked by a cluster of bullets? Slice through those bullets with the shield whilst moving at speed 3 and shoot that fucker.

4: Bullets have different properties vs the Shield. Some take much longer to destroy and only slow down when touching it. For example, a common cause of death for newcomers is attempting to shield-move through The Heart mini-boss's bullets on stage 4, which usually results in death since the bullets take a second of shielding to actually be erased.

5: The hitbox is tiny. Standard bullet hell hitbox size. If I had to GUESS I'd say somewhere between 4x4 and 2x2 pixels.

6: Enemy MOVEMENT is just as dangerous in this game as bullets. Be sure to understand how they move, and not just what kind of patterns they fire. Due to the random spawn positions of many zakos, routing is less about having a pixel perfect path through the game and more just having a general strategy for each enemy type and wave. Watch some replays if you have trouble with a particular wave.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:33 am 



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Original Normal took me 50 tries to beat.

I'm not terrible at shmups either.

Don't underestimate it.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:10 am 


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To Far Away Times wrote:
Stage 26 is a real bitch.

I got real close once. Then I went in last time with 4 lives and choked.

Ugh...


I agree. The final boss' last form is a real Motherfucker.
Original Normal isn't to be underestimated either. Even at normal level, it does feel a bit arcadey. Just be thankful that it doesn't throw up the classic "Add 2 Coins to Continue" when you lose your last ship.

Those wildass random missile patterns in area 1 can be annoying occasionally, partially thanks to your wide shot being so short ranged at level 1. Certainly, you need speed 3 there. Thank goodness for Quick Restart.

Squire Grooktook wrote:
Due to the random spawn positions of many zakos, routing is less about having a pixel perfect path through the game and more just having a general strategy for each enemy type and wave.

Exactly that. Memory does help snuff out some waves, but you can't really patternize it to the extent of Pulstar or R-Type. It takes a little improvisation.

This should be the definitive version once slowdowns are fixed. 1200p and higher resolutions... yes. I don't get too severe FPS dips having a 3.2 GHz QC with a GTX 580, but look forward to them being fixed.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:24 am 


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quick question: on original hard, at the first boss i often lose 2-3 levels on my multiplier right before the boss switches to his "final" form (the red globe). i can't seem to figure out why, since I don't see any zako escaping... ideas?

and now some early impressions. i played this on the x360 casually, but this is my first time trying to get more serious with it:

* i find Eschatos pretty frustrating to play for score, though I think unlocking the level select will help
* the jump from original normal to original hard feels huge; normal is a little too boring, but hard is just a slaughterfest past the first stage.
* i cant really play original hard anyway, frame drops are pretty sudden and severe. even with a fresh reboot my laptop still struggles, so maybe its just too weak (i5 and no special gfx card)
* losing all my lives being rammed by the st2 boss was pretty annoying. i wouldnt have included such "environmental hazards" given the pseudo-3D perspective
* crystal maze, otoh, was pretty fun
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:45 pm 


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blackoak wrote:
quick question: on original hard, at the first boss i often lose 2-3 levels on my multiplier right before the boss switches to his "final" form (the red globe). i can't seem to figure out why, since I don't see any zako escaping... ideas?


Either a crystal zako is passing you by, or you're not killing all the weakpoints on the ufo itself. Keep in mind you can continue to damage them even when they're turned on the opposite side of the ufo. Watch for the green hitboxes and hp values, and keep on shooting them whenever possible.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:18 am 


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Am I going insane, or does the difficulty in Time Attack change based on how quickly you clear previous areas? I've noticed the first boss change bullet density on some runs.


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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:30 am 


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I've heard that there's some sort of rank system in Time Attack, so you're probably not crazy.
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 Post subject: Re: You really need to play Eschatos
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:21 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
I've heard that there's some sort of rank system in Time Attack, so you're probably not crazy.


Got a feeling that's right. TA did seem a bit more difficult the last time I tried it (some larger enemy bullets, for one thing).
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