Boss 101 (PS3,PS4,360,XBOne,PC)

[Doctor Butler]

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/02/27/ar ... idiculous/
http://www.donleytimefoundation.com/

The main feature of Boss 101 is its procedural generation. Everything from bosses, to guns, to outfits. However, none of it is simply tossed at you randomly as you can build your own levels with the money the money you earn from defeating bosses.

I'm not too keen on any of that really, but it looks like it could be fun for some casual play.

What do you guys think?

[Squire Grooktook]

A randomly generated, survival focused shmup could be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be a score chase imo. It just depends on if the elements added to the random generation (patterns, enemies, power ups, etc.) are fun to play with.

It definitely looks euroshmuppy though. Let's just hope it's an interesting/fun brand of euroshmup (like Gingaforce arguably is) and not something made by people with no idea what their doing.

[Shepardus]

Could be some good casual fun as you said, too early to say much about it though. I hope the camera scrolling isn't as nauseating as those gifs make it seem though.

[Ed Oscuro]

I see a player taking boatloads of damage in a Euroshmup for no reason other than being blinded by the pixel bling.

[CloudyMusic]

It's strange how the life bar goes down only 1 or 2 pixels when you get hit. It's that way for all of the gifs on the game's web site, too.

I like the idea of a procedurally-generated STG, but I think it'd probably be tricky to make one that is A) well-balanced, and B) feels meaningfully different between playthroughs. The boss generator thing is a novel idea, but depending on how many discrete boss parts there are, they could start to feel kind of samey once you've seen everything.

I'm looking forward to seeing the final product, at least.

[Doctor Butler]

Yeah, like most procedurally-generated games, it's really more for shits-and-giggles, than anything serious.

[suny]

Really like the Art style and the dynamism of the game.
I'm wondering how long a procedurally-generated game can engage the player before boring him, though...
And so I'm looking forward of trying it.

It definitely looks euroshmuppy though.

Squire Grooktook, I'd be interested in what are elements of the game you think as euroshmuppy. I guess the life bar is an obvious one, but I would like to know more

S.

[Doctor Butler]

I'd have to guess the customization and persistent unlockables.


And yes - the lifebar.

[Squire Grooktook]

It definitely looks euroshmuppy though.

Squire Grooktook, I'd be interested in what are elements of the game you think as euroshmuppy. I guess the life bar is an obvious one, but I would like to know more

S.

Besides the health bar, he seems to take a lot of hits in that gif but only a little of the life bar is reduced. There's also a money. Also can't tell if there's inertia on controls or not.

[Shepardus]

For anyone who hasn't noticed yet, one of the developers created a thread for the game over in the Development forum and is open to feedback.

[Donley_Time]

Hey all, apologies for not seeing this post after I set up my original post in the dev forum. I'm new to the board but I did come here for some feedback and wisdom so I really appreciate your time. You probably have no idea how much it means to me (the developer of Boss 101) to hear even a casal passing remark about the game. Very enlightening and helpful.

That said - onward with the replies. You'll also have to forgive my general indepth lack of Schump specific terms. Though I have been in game development a long time (over 20 years) it's not exactly my direct wheelhouse. Boss 101 is a passion project and was born out of a desire to make a fun game based around my experience in games (both development and playing). A shooter was something I gravitated to since I always enjoyed blasting badguys and I loved the idea of a randomly player generated boss game. There's a lot more to it than that obviously but that's a longer story for later! HAHAHA! OK - enough gassing about me...

Re: the procedural aspect of the bosses... I'm not too keen on any of that really, but it looks like it could be fun for some casual play.
What do you guys think?

It's designed to be a pick up and play game for a wide audience - now how well it's showing or hitting that target at the moment is of course debatable. HA! As you hint at (and I hope) that ideally won't preclude a person who enjoys a more traditional shooter from enjoying it. The game has a lot of dialog (players talk with each other, bosses and player interact, lots of out of round and round start comments fly around). There is also an (arguably) entertaining story about why you the characters are even in the game and what they are doing in there. That concept certainly isn't new to game (or movies, or books or comics) but I like to think our take is pretty fun.

A randomly generated, survival focused shmup could be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be a score chase imo. It just depends on if the elements added to the random generation (patterns, enemies, power ups, etc.) are fun to play with.

It definitely looks euroshmuppy though. Let's just hope it's an interesting/fun brand of euroshmup (like Gingaforce arguably is) and not something made by people with no idea what their doing.

Ok - I'll admit I had to look up Euroshumpy from an old ass thread here. I can see where Boss 101 would fall into a lot of those overall categories (health bar, items to buy, bright colors and a few others). I can attest there are NO Amiga demo coders on the team, NOR have we rendered anything with a chrome sheen. All the art is hand drawn a pixel at a time (in nearly every case). All animation is done with Esoteric's Spine program or otherwise done in engine. The game is not finished at the moment but we are focused on fun and good gameplay. Nothing too easy and nothing too hard, which is of course, the goal of many, many games.

The one thing I totally agree on is the gameplay experience must be "fair" and understandable by the player. A lot of the preview work you are seeing in the GIFs is done with a buffed health bar since we were testing initial systems. That will change as we do more tuning (in fact some of this already has been altered). I only mention that for clarification and not to invalidate the importance of balance.

Could be some good casual fun as you said, too early to say much about it though. I hope the camera scrolling isn't as nauseating as those gifs make it seem though.

Thanks for the comment - yeah, nausea is off the to-do list of features.

I see a player taking boatloads of damage in a Euroshmup for no reason other than being blinded by the pixel bling.

HA! As I mention above - there is a health bar/shield in the game so there are moments where you will likely get hit. That said - we aren't looking to let the player sponge up every shot just to gaze upon our pixel wielding skillz. (though that sounds like a game idea for another time, hehe)

It's strange how the life bar goes down only 1 or 2 pixels when you get hit. It's that way for all of the gifs on the game's web site, too.

I like the idea of a procedurally-generated STG, but I think it'd probably be tricky to make one that is A) well-balanced, and B) feels meaningfully different between playthroughs. The boss generator thing is a novel idea, but depending on how many discrete boss parts there are, they could start to feel kind of samey once you've seen everything.

I'm looking forward to seeing the final product, at least.

Thanks and yah - this has been a fun game but as you notice - it's a tightrope walk to make sure there is interesting stuff and balance. An interesting thing about the boss generator is we did a math calculation and though I don't recall the exact amount of variations but it was something like a 2 followed by three HUNDRED zeros. Ideally that means you won't see the same boss very often.

Yeah, like most procedurally-generated games, it's really more for shits-and-giggles, than anything serious.

Hey man, shits, giggles and whatever. If the game entertains and gets your attention. Awesome. At the risk of sounding obvious, we're doing this for our living so a sale and a good word mean a LOT to us. We are looking to earn our keep.

Really like the Art style and the dynamism of the game.
I'm wondering how long a procedurally-generated game can engage the player before boring him, though...
And so I'm looking forward of trying it.

It definitely looks euroshmuppy though.

Squire Grooktook, I'd be interested in what are elements of the game you think as euroshmuppy. I guess the life bar is an obvious one, but I would like to know more

S.

Thanks for the comment and we're looking at elements of the game beyond just pressing Make-a-Boss and hitting go. As I mentioned there are reasons given to you the player for doing what you do. Ideally we are able to pull that off in spectacular fashion and entertain you all the way through.

I'd have to guess the customization and persistent unlockables.


And yes - the lifebar.

Among other things yes - but no Euro track Dance Mixes are licensed for this game. Also we are working to avoid horrible balance, boring levels and tepid gameplay.

Besides the health bar, he seems to take a lot of hits in that gif but only a little of the life bar is reduced. There's also a money. Also can't tell if there's inertia on controls or not.

yah, I mentioned the life bar thing above so hopefully that helps explains some of the bullet sponge stuff. As for the rest - the game is always being played for fun and tuning. We are always open to feedback too! Thank you!

For anyone who hasn't noticed yet, one of the developers created a thread for the game over in the Development forum and is open to feedback.

Thanks for that! I'll make sure to check here too!

Also - repost: the Dev Thread I created is here... and I most certainly welcome feedback and input!

Thank you again everyone! Really good stuff and I can say I learned A LOT here already! Looking forward to more!

Best,

-Tim

[Despatche]

A randomly generated, survival focused shmup could be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be a score chase imo.

There's just no point in not having a scoring system. You beat it, and then what? It's forced scrolling, so you can't even speedrun it!

The "hardcore" of the genre really have no idea what score/time means to a game, and that's why this genre is "dead".

[LordHypnos]

A randomly generated, survival focused shmup could be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be a score chase imo.

There's just no point in not having a scoring system. You beat it, and then what? It's forced scrolling, so you can't even speedrun it!

The "hardcore" of the genre really have no idea what score/time means to a game, and that's why this genre is "dead".

well, if it's randomly generated it's different every time, so replayability shouldn't be too big of an issue. It's sort of like improvising in music. Classical musicians don't tend to train at that, but in other genres it's a thing. It can be really quite rewarding when it goes well.

The big issue with designing a randomly generated shmup is of course making it fair--which something where every shot was completely random would probably not be--but still not too repetetive, which would lower the replay value. IMO rRootage random modes actually do this quite well. I can still play 4R or 5R (or sometimes 6R or 7R, though they're kind of above a level I can consistently do well on) and enjoy it even though I've played it like a million times. FWIW, my score in 4R is also pretty good, but it's kind of pointless because I probably just got lucky and got the random patterns that it's easiest to score on (That's how most high R scores happen).

[Donley_Time]

A randomly generated, survival focused shmup could be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be a score chase imo.

There's just no point in not having a scoring system. You beat it, and then what? It's forced scrolling, so you can't even speedrun it!

The "hardcore" of the genre really have no idea what score/time means to a game, and that's why this genre is "dead".

Personally, I do like the idea of scoring. It's fun to go for those extra points/combos. Boss 101 does have scoring and time modes. Whether that is good or bad is debatable for some I'm sure. We also put in the endless mode so you can basically hammer away on as many bosses as possible to see how far you can get on one life.

It's a balancing act. The procedural thing allows a lot of benefits and we're working to make the best of them without detracting from any other areas. At the same time - the biggest focus is just making the game fun. Lofty ambitions to be sure! HA!

well, if it's randomly generated it's different every time, so replayability shouldn't be too big of an issue. It's sort of like improvising in music. Classical musicians don't tend to train at that, but in other genres it's a thing. It can be really quite rewarding when it goes well.

The big issue with designing a randomly generated shmup is of course making it fair--which something where every shot was completely random would probably not be--but still not too repetetive, which would lower the replay value. IMO rRootage random modes actually do this quite well. I can still play 4R or 5R (or sometimes 6R or 7R, though they're kind of above a level I can consistently do well on) and enjoy it even though I've played it like a million times. FWIW, my score in 4R is also pretty good, but it's kind of pointless because I probably just got lucky and got the random patterns that it's easiest to score on (That's how most high R scores happen).

Didn't know about rRootage but looked it up. Wow - looks nuts!

Completely agree about the challenges of randomly generated stuff. The fairness thing. As I said above the main goal for Boss 101 is to give the player a fun experience. For us a fun time is about striking the balance of "threat of death/loss" versus "crushing the enemy". Great shooters have these awesome moments of "I'm almost died but I pulled it out and won!". I think that is something fighting games and the FPS genre have - even with 1 hit point you're still in the game and can still pull a win out.

Good stuff guys and lots to think about!

Best,

-Tim

[LordHypnos]

@Tim: Also note that only the R bosses have RNG patterns (well maybe there's a little in the others, but it's mostly static). I have a couple videos of rr on my dailymotion channel, btw, including 4R and 6R [/shameless plug]

Also one more thing to add to my response to Despache

There's just no point in not having a scoring system. You beat it, and then what?

Trying to reduce your deaths or bombs as in 1LCs or something like 2hu LNB runs; sometimes higher difficulties, depending on whether they're designed well, or not (Usually doujins' higher difficulties are designed to be actually played).Low scoring runs (actually, I think that's about as close as you could get to a zero score run in MM), pacifist runs, even just trying to 2-ALL something. It's not like score and time are the only ways of increasing difficulty / replayability. There are plenty of other interesting self-imposed challenges.

[Donley_Time]

@Tim: Also note that only the R bosses have RNG patterns (well maybe there's a little in the others, but it's mostly static). I have a couple videos of rr on my dailymotion channel, btw, including 4R and 6R [/shameless plug]

Also one more thing to add to my response to Despache

There's just no point in not having a scoring system. You beat it, and then what?

Trying to reduce your deaths or bombs as in 1LCs or something like 2hu LNB runs; sometimes higher difficulties, depending on whether they're designed well, or not (Usually doujins' higher difficulties are designed to be actually played).Low scoring runs (actually, I think that's about as close as you could get to a zero score run in MM), pacifist runs, even just trying to 2-ALL something. It's not like score and time are the only ways of increasing difficulty / replayability. There are plenty of other interesting self-imposed challenges.

Checked out your channel. What is that monitor you were playing on your cover video?!?! HAHA Hard to remember the last CRT one I saw.

Yeah, I think you bring up a lot of great ideas for game modes. I can't gaurantee anything at the moment but one of the points in coming to this site was to get info like this and ideally incorporate the ones that are the most reasonable and doable for Boss 101. Those kinda of game modes you are talking about mostly require some tracking on the game's part and don't (at a glance) seem too hard. In the end if it gives the game some legs then it's worth a look. The best ideas will obviously be the ones that give the game the most shelf life for the most people. Still, I think it's worth looking at something that might appeal to a smaller subset since they tend to help bring in and use those long term features to keep a game alive.

-Tim

[LordHypnos]

Checked out your channel. What is that monitor you were playing on your cover video?!?! HAHA Hard to remember the last CRT one I saw.

It's a Gateway EV700. Unfortunately it's in pretty bad condition... well not really, but the white levels are really bad, right now (as in not enough white). This isn't too big of an issue for most games, but when it comes to something like MDK2 that's super dark, to start with, you actually can't tell what's going on some of the time. Probably would be an issue with most modern FPS or TPS, but not usually for shmups.

Yeah, I think you bring up a lot of great ideas for game modes. I can't gaurantee anything at the moment but one of the points in coming to this site was to get info like this and ideally incorporate the ones that are the most reasonable and doable for Boss 101. Those kinda of game modes you are talking about mostly require some tracking on the game's part and don't (at a glance) seem too hard. In the end if it gives the game some legs then it's worth a look. The best ideas will obviously be the ones that give the game the most shelf life for the most people. Still, I think it's worth looking at something that might appeal to a smaller subset since they tend to help bring in and use those long term features to keep a game alive.

-Tim

Yeah, I mean, depending on the scope of the project, it can be a good idea to add in further difficulty modes, more content is almost always better. Most of the other stuff I was talking about was self imposed challenges, which was mostly just because Despache was claiming that without a scoring system shmups lack replayability.

[Squire Grooktook]

A randomly generated, survival focused shmup could be a lot of fun. Not everything has to be a score chase imo.

There's just no point in not having a scoring system. You beat it, and then what?

You could replay it and have fun dodging rng bullets. There are a lot of shmups out there that I enjoy replaying, even though they don't have good/any scoring systems, simply because they have fun dodging/level design/etc. Scoring is nice, but if a game is fun enough it can still be very replayable and exciting just for survival. Especially if its random and/or tight enough to remain a challenging even on replay.

[Donley_Time]

A couple things and perhaps some will interest you!

One: We went up on Steam Greenlight today. We are mos-def planning to do consoles but that is our planned first stop. You can check out the video and the Steam page at the links below!

>>>Direct Link to Boss 101 Steam Greenlight PAGE<<<

Two: We have been listening to the feedback from here and others and there are a some adds going into the game geared towards the shooter crowd. Specifically we are looking at adding modes/mods to make the game attractive to those looking for a more challenging version of Boss 101. These would be user definable so you could turn them on/off as you like or do them as you choose. We don't have specifics at the moment but this would be along the lines of:

• - Limited or one hit modes (obviously we would have to look at how this affects general tuning and adjust)
  - Chains, combos and challenge modes or sub modes
  - a version of the Create a Boss where you design a specific boss from specific parts. From there you can pas the 'boss creation code' to other players to see how they fare
  - also just integrating modes that really work to extend the replay-ability by rewarding skill (again - we're mostly looking to dovetail something into what we already have)

Well there you go and we'll keep you posted. Thanks for checking out the page and we would love your support!

Best,

-Tim

[Donley_Time]

I wanted to drop by and say a big THANK YOU from us to you! The Boss 101 Greenlight is moving along really well and it looks like we are well on our way to getting on Steam.

There's still a ton of work to do but I wanted to mention TWO LITTLE THINGS especially for you here in the forum.

We have added two new hats to the Boss 101 lineup in honor of this site. Their EXACT abilities are still being tuned but the current plan is they will make your character (well, S.T.E.V.E. and Max) into more or less traditional ShUMPS type player vehicle. Among the things we are thinking is both these hats will turn off the life bar and possibly a few other things (might even include modification of player movement and shots).

The deal here is the player can wear these and get all sorts of special bonuses for doing so. Don't quote us on everything at the moment but we are working on something special for you! Really it's for everyone since WE ALL WIN with extra goodies. OK - more to come and I will update our devblog here tonight with some more news!

Thank you again and your vote is REALLY appreciated!

-Tim

>>>Direct Link to Boss 101 Steam Greenlight PAGE<<<