Why do you suppose people can't make great shmups anymore?

[evil_ash_xero]

Controversial title there, hey?

I'm not talking about Cave here, since they have made some amazing shmups in the 2000s, but it seems like almost no one else CAN. Anytime I see a new shmup come out, it's usually made by a smaller developer for a bigger developer(Pyramid for DariusBurst, or Moss For Raiden III and IV, for instance), and they're "good", but not great.
And those guys from Compile who make Karous(I think that's how it's spelled) and Radirgy. I'm sure i'll rub some the wrong way here, but it's just not cutting it. They used to be Compile! High standards and all...

Back in the old days, it seems like way more people had the skills. It really makes you appreciate the art of making a really special shmup. Anyone can make one, a lot of people can make a decent one, but to make a really kick ass one...well, that's hard.

Sometimes, I can tell what hold some of these games back from being better. DariusBurst for instance needed more variety in backgrounds and enemies. Could have been a bit longer.
But so many other people make crap shumps nowadays. ThunderForce VI is coming to mind.

I guess the easy answer is that lots of these young developers really never worked on shmups, and don't really know what to do to make them awesome.

It's a shame.

Do you guys think that what I said is the case, or is it something else like the big companies just aren't putting them out THEMSELVES, which would give them more of a budget/talented programmers, and all that jazz?

[rancor]

Please click on the site in my sig, go to the free software / demo section and download either Crimzon Clover or Siter Skains' Alltynex Second. Those are both amazing titles that either have, or are going to be released in 2010. There are still amazing shooters being made, you just cant rely on arcades for all of your titles. Even then NG:DEV team have made an amazing shooter this year in their Fast Striker title. Not only is your title controversial, but in my opinion it's downright wrong.

...anyhow, thats just my opinion.

[EPS21]

I agree with rancor, the doujin scene pushes the genre in ways commercial games can't touch, and you didn't address that at all in your argument. Unless you meant commercial shmups only.

[ROBOTRON]

For those of us like me who depend on console shmups, though harsh...he is essentially correct.

I think the big software manufactures depend on the new crop of gamers that sit around all day and play FPS all day because thats where the big bucks are. Yes a whole new generation of pimple faced, Colombine kids that love blasting/hacking/slashing each other to death...because thats where the money is. Its no wonder when I watch Xplay or occasionally pick up a gaming mag nowadays, its chuck full o' FPS 90%, RPGs 8% and 2% everything else.

[evil_ash_xero]

Please click on the site in my sig, go to the free software / demo section and download either Crimzon Clover or Siter Skains' Alltynex Second. Those are both amazing titles that either have, or are going to be released in 2010. There are still amazing shooters being made, you just cant rely on arcades for all of your titles. Even then NG:DEV team have made an amazing shooter this year in their Fast Striker title. Not only is your title controversial, but in my opinion it's downright wrong.

...anyhow, thats just my opinion.

Thanks for the advice on that. I've been interested in Crimzon Clover for a while. I'll check out the demo later today.

[njiska]

The problem with a lot of doujins though is that they aren't original. That's not saying there aren't a number of fully original titles, but watching Rancor's video I kept thinking, this is a rip off of X.

[rancor]

The problem with a lot of doujins though is that they aren't original. That's not saying there aren't a number of fully original titles, but watching Rancor's video I kept thinking, this is a rip off of X.

All modern shmups are basically a rip off of Xevious. It's the small improvements / variations in each title that makes them great.

[clp]

Troll thread OP is cave fanboy .

[njiska]

The problem with a lot of doujins though is that they aren't original. That's not saying there aren't a number of fully original titles, but watching Rancor's video I kept thinking, this is a rip off of X.

All modern shmups are basically a rip off of Xevious. It's the small improvements / variations in each title that makes them great.

Yes, but there's building on a concept and then there's copying it outright with little added.

[rancor]

The problem with a lot of doujins though is that they aren't original. That's not saying there aren't a number of fully original titles, but watching Rancor's video I kept thinking, this is a rip off of X.

All modern shmups are basically a rip off of Xevious. It's the small improvements / variations in each title that makes them great.

Yes, but there's building on a concept and then there's copying it outright with little added.

Excepting Kamui and Edens Aegis which I can agree are straight up rip-offs - but nonetheless good - which titles do you feel are merely aping previous efforts and add nothing to the genre? This isn't an attack or me questioning your judgement, but I think it would make for a good discussion.

[THE]

Warning! Shmup dev rant ahead!

As long as people as the OP are in the majority that probably won't change anytime soon.
Their ignorance and fan-boy-ism just strengthen that development.

To create great games instead of descent ones, a lot of money, time and experience is needed. If a game company knows, that their new shmup won't nearly sell us much as a Cave game, why bother to make it great?

What small shmup devs need is your support both in purchasing the games and hyping them. The only shmup dev that gets enough publicity and hype today is Cave. Yes, Cave deserves it, but maybe you guys could get other developers a chance too.
Ignorance and chauvinism is one of the biggest threats for the shmup genre today. Shmups don't need the mainstream, but they need the community / fan base!

Having a Cave monoculture is dangerous, if Cave someday is leaving the shmup market, there is nothing else left...

This rant isn't particular for shmup.com members. But those 30000 people out there who purchase Cave games, but only 5000 of them are purchasing stuff from other shmup developers.

[njiska]

Actually those were the first two that came to mind. The Exceed series also feels like a straight up rip off of Ikaruga. I haven't really played a lot of Doujin shmups so I'll admit it may just be a case of bad selection.

[Demetori]

Touhou players generally don't play anything but Touhou and things relating to it, similar to how Cave fans work.

I also think it's more to do with how the genre grows in proportion to who plays what. There is by a long mile, more people who play Cave-style shmups than there are 1942-style shmup players. With such a low overall player base, the genre is catered to where people are in the market.
Until something big comes and changes the direction, unfortunately? this is the way the wind is blowing.

[rancor]

Touhou players generally don't play anything but Touhou and things relating to it, similar to how Cave fans work.

Thats sig worthy.

[evil_ash_xero]

Warning! Shmup dev rant ahead!

As long as people as the OP are in the majority that probably won't change anytime soon.
Their ignorance and fan-boy-ism just strengthen that development.

To create great games instead of descent ones, a lot of money, time and experience is needed. If a game company knows, that their new shmup won't nearly sell us much as a Cave game, why bother to make it great?

What small shmup devs need is your support both in purchasing the games and hyping them. The only shmup dev that gets enough publicity and hype today is Cave. Yes, Cave deserves it, but maybe you guys could get other developers a chance too.
Ignorance and chauvinism is one of the biggest threats for the shmup genre today. Shmups don't need the mainstream, but they need the community / fan base!

Having a Cave monoculture is dangerous, if Cave someday is leaving the shmup market, there is nothing else left...

This rant isn't particular for shmup.com members. But those 30000 people out there who purchase Cave games, but only 5000 of them are purchasing stuff from other shmup developers.

Yep, it's my fault most shmups that come out of Japan are lackluster. Because if I bought their lackluster games, then all of a sudden amazing games would start coming out? Yeah....

[THE]

Yep, it's my fault most shmups that come out of Japan are lackluster. Because if I bought their lackluster games, then all of a sudden amazing games would start coming out? Yeah....

Alone the fact, that you don't seem to consider to purchase Shmups made outside of Japan, proves me right

[DJ Incompetent]

Although they're some of my favorites, Compile is a pretty poor example of games being one of the greats. You couldn't even compete for score on most of them because they always left in some nasty scoring exploits.

Shikigami no Shiro series
Galaga Legions
Geometry Wars 2
Space Invaders Infinity Gene
Space Invaders Extreme 2
Retrofit Overload
Decimation X
Hypership Out of Control
These games would like to have a word with you.

[clp]

The problem now is so many people are so submerged in cave that if a shmup has different qualities and play style its instantly a bad shmup as if the only way is the cave way. Cave are so good they managed to create a fun scoring system on like 3 of there games ever . Im willing to bet a massive percentage of cave fans atm are hooked in by the aesthetics the hype and the gimmick of bullet hell with a minority as any scoreboard will prove actually playing them to any length .

[DJ Incompetent]

truth.

[RHE]

Why do you suppose people can't make great threads anymore?

[agustusx]

Whats the point of making a great shmup if it will go greatly unappreciated and unnoticed next to mediocre shmups that look flashy and sell well in today's marketplaces? (Think PSN, XBLA, iTunes, Retail, Steam etc)

It's not necessary for a game to be "great" to a seasoned shoot'em up fan because casual players can't tell any difference. Casual shmupers have the numbers, and perhaps some devs design with that in mind.

I have a few friends that are long time gamers, but very casual shmupers and they are more than satisfied with "ok" shooters than deep challenging ones. They can appreciate the refinements in the visual/aural experience in a quality shmup, but they don't grasp what makes the gameplay great. They aren't keen on shooter subtleties and they don't find it fun to replay stages for perfection. They can't articulate whats good in a shooter other than "its fun" and they never play for score. They could talk at length about the various modes of StarCraft2 or the changes in the move-list for the latest Soul Calibur, so they can be knowledgeable gamers, but they have never taken a serious dive into shooters.

I think a lot of people are this way. They would rather play an arena shooter with a thousand repetitive levels, grind for power-ups and enjoy the cool explosions. There's nothing wrong with this, except I do think their $$ go to devs who make games in this fashion. Their $$ potentially support devs that make mediocre games(not all indie arena shooters suck ).

[njiska]

The problem now is so many people are so submerged in cave that if a shmup has different qualities and play style its instantly a bad shmup as if the only way is the cave way.

Sadly I have to agree with this point for a lot of Cave fans, but I'd like to add that Cave haters are just as bad and will equally tend to reject Cave style games. The problem is that each developer tends to carve out a style all their own and if that's the style you like it's the one you'll embrace the most. Other styles tend to fall by the way side. Similarly if there's a style you really hate. For Example I hate Ikaruga and I'll automatically avoid anything that looks like it unless it comes with a big recommendation.

[honorless]

Why do you suppose people can't make great threads anymore?

easier to make yet another topic on The Declining State of Shmups™ and/or how Everyone Sucks But Cave Now™ than to sit down and play all the shooters you haven't even given a college try yet

getting out of this thread and going back to work so I don't continue being part of the problem

[Ed Oscuro]

Also the money is (by the theory anyway) in FPSes and third person RPGs and whatever now, so people don't put money into developing shooters commercially very often.

[LtC]

The problem with a lot of doujins though is that they aren't original. That's not saying there aren't a number of fully original titles, but watching Rancor's video I kept thinking, this is a rip off of X.

What's the problem? Does it stop them from being fun?

Can you really say game X is completely like game Y without actually playing it? For example exceed2nd is a completely different experience than Ikaruga, sure it might have the polarity mechanic but that doesn't mean you'll be playing Ikaruga with a different skin.

There are tons of games like hellsinker that don't come in a 300$ cardboard box and they get totally overlooked because they weren't released on consoles or arcade.

PC is very widely on this forum considered the inferior platform (by these cave men with their head in a bush) but in fact there are more, sometimes better and more innovative games released on the PC these days.

[MathU]

Raiden IV and Radirgy are both better than any of the crap CAVE has been shitting out lately.

[supergrafx77]

Raiden IV and Radirgy are both better than any of the crap CAVE has been shitting out lately.

Whatever man...

[njiska]

The problem with a lot of doujins though is that they aren't original. That's not saying there aren't a number of fully original titles, but watching Rancor's video I kept thinking, this is a rip off of X.

What's the problem? Does it stop them from being fun?

Can you really say game X is completely like game Y without actually playing it? For example exceed2nd is a completely different experience than Ikaruga, sure it might have the polarity mechanic but that doesn't mean you'll be playing Ikaruga with a different skin.

There are tons of games like hellsinker that don't come in a 300$ cardboard box and they get totally overlooked because they weren't released on consoles or arcade.

PC is very widely on this forum considered the inferior platform (by these cave men with their head in a bush) but in fact there are more, sometimes better and more innovative games released on the PC these days.

I didn't say they stop being fun, I'm just saying that to me it hurts their appeal. Keep in mind that legal access to a lot of doujin shooters requires some real effort when you live in the west. I'm sure a lot of those games certainly are a lot of fun, but i'm never going to go through the hassle of tracking them down if they look like something I've played before. That's the problem.

And for the record I don't consider the PC to be inferior, just a pain in the ass as many doujin's i've tried don't support mapping movement to a joystick hat.

Raiden IV and Radirgy are both better than any of the crap CAVE has been shitting out lately.

I have to disagree, at least about Raiden IV as I haven't played Ragirgy. While R IV is certainly a good game there isn't really anything new or exciting about it. Nothing Moss hasn't don't before. CAVE, on the other hand, shat our DDP DFK BL which I would call a far superior product. Though quality is in the eye of the beholder and i'll happily yield DSII is relatively sub par.

[dan76]

Warning! Shmup dev rant ahead!

As long as people as the OP are in the majority that probably won't change anytime soon.
Their ignorance and fan-boy-ism just strengthen that development.

To create great games instead of descent ones, a lot of money, time and experience is needed. If a game company knows, that their new shmup won't nearly sell us much as a Cave game, why bother to make it great?

What small shmup devs need is your support both in purchasing the games and hyping them. The only shmup dev that gets enough publicity and hype today is Cave. Yes, Cave deserves it, but maybe you guys could get other developers a chance too.
Ignorance and chauvinism is one of the biggest threats for the shmup genre today. Shmups don't need the mainstream, but they need the community / fan base!

Having a Cave monoculture is dangerous, if Cave someday is leaving the shmup market, there is nothing else left...

This rant isn't particular for shmup.com members. But those 30000 people out there who purchase Cave games, but only 5000 of them are purchasing stuff from other shmup developers.

What a load of garbage. So game companies don't bother making great games because they know it won't sell like Cave... And yet you want us to support that game company? We do not owe developers a living. The unwritten deal is that you make something worth buying - and we will buy it. You can't ask a community to support an industry - however small - as a favour. If cave were to pull out of the shmup market I wouldn't suddenly start playing worse games. I'd just play great old games. If developers keep releasing garbage, eventually the genre may be killed of - and rightly so. We are not Oxfam.

If a developer thinks that the shmup community should support whatever they put out - then it's the developer who is ignorant.

[Demetori]

@dan76

On the mark; and about the "The unwritten deal is that you make something worth buying - and we will buy it.", so THE is speaking towards the right direction, when asking that people support the smaller shmup developers, and then again, the only reason we would is if we had something to look forward to, not total garbage.