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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:28 pm 


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TrevHead (TVR) wrote:



great way to explain how playing this game feels with the whole "house wife dropping bag analogy"

Is there anyone else who didn't mind this game when they first played it, but now gets that feeling of ... I cant be arsed, when you think of giving this another go after turning your 360 on?


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:56 pm 


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I haven't bought it yet, The random pwr mechanic made me see red when I first played the demo. Hopefully if I leave it for a short while I'll be able to ignore the parts that I hate and enjoy it better. I'm kinda hoping it'll a have patch by then (i'm not expecting the random pwr ups to be altered, but something would be nice)
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:22 pm 


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I used to think a patch to address the issues would make the game enjoyable

haha wow, what was I smoking?

There's seriously too many things wrong with the game that I've lost all hope for it and can't be bothered to care. You'd basically need a massive overhaul that goes beyond even a "Black Label" into outright sequel/separate game territory. Anyone interested in an XBox 360 shmup with bullet slowdown or a shield is honestly better off investing in Espgaluda II or Eschatos, games that were made by people who actually know what good shmup mechanics are. Sine Mora is eye-candy: looks pretty, but the game itself is just badly designed/made.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:25 pm 


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TrevHead (TVR) wrote:
This is loltastic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UPs9NOZ ... ature=plcp

damn those oranges!


At 4:23 he used footage from my stage 2 replay. I'm e-famous!
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:59 pm 


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Kiken wrote:
TrevHead (TVR) wrote:
This is loltastic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UPs9NOZ ... ature=plcp

damn those oranges!


At 4:23 he used footage from my stage 2 replay. I'm e-famous!


Your also xbox famous because an edited PG version is on the UK XBL. (I hope MS dont cancel Inside XBOX in the UK like they have in the US, The UK stuff is quite entertaining, plus they are quite pro for the arcade games we like, They ran features on Treasure's games, Hard Corp Uprising and Sine Mora among others)


speaking of famous, A few days ago Bulletmagnet was namedropped on Gamesultra when they linked his latest RB article.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:11 pm 


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BareknuckleRoo wrote:
I used to think a patch to address the issues would make the game enjoyable

haha wow, what was I smoking?

There's seriously too many things wrong with the game that I've lost all hope for it and can't be bothered to care. You'd basically need a massive overhaul that goes beyond even a "Black Label" into outright sequel/separate game territory. Anyone interested in an XBox 360 shmup with bullet slowdown or a shield is honestly better off investing in Espgaluda II or Eschatos, games that were made by people who actually know what good shmup mechanics are. Sine Mora is eye-candy: looks pretty, but the game itself is just badly designed/made.


I read "people who create shoot-them-up game for the first time dont do it as well as people who have been doing just this for the past 15 years".

Ok the game is kind of meeh but certain (too many) aspects, but lets admit this is a good shot for a first-timer. I am willing to pay for more.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:14 am 


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To be honest, I think almost everything I dislike about the game is something a patch could fix.

But the game's out, it is what it is, and I'm not really stressing it.

It's okay. It's an okay game.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:15 am 


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Setting consistent item drops alone would go a loooong way towards making Sine Mora a more enjoyable game. A brief invincibility period after taking a hit and/or losing only a portion of your power (half? three levels?) would be wonderful as well. Both would be relatively simple to patch in.

My main issue with Sine Mora has been that IF the game decides not to work against you, it is always very eager to take its favor back. As it is I feel that success is in large part luck of the draw - sometimes the game drops shields like candy, and they're absurdly overpowered and penalty free. Sometimes it gives out subweapons and time capsules like candy then slaps my wrist for using them. A good run can fail to bad luck and a bad run can be your best if the deck is in your favor, and it's extremely offputting.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:39 am 


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CStarFlare wrote:
A good run can fail to bad luck and a bad run can be your best if the deck is in your favor, and it's extremely offputting.


Yeah, and this is much much worse on "score attack" mode with individual stages.. I do wonder how they tested that mode yet found it to work well when on the later stages getting lucky with powerups gives a huge and obvious advantage that should be really easy to deduce just from the idea of stage select + random items..


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:08 pm 



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On random item drops: we're fine with the design decision. This is not the first game with such a system - for example, Dragon Spirit has it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:20 pm 


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Reiker wrote:
On random item drops: we're fine with the design decision. This is not the first game with such a system - for example, Dragon Spirit has it too.
You should play it again then, I don't recall Dragon Spirit having random powerups but even then it's a bad design decision, IT RANDOMIZES the scoring routes thus scoring which is a fail in itself. That is to put it politely but if you asked someone more professional, he would DEFINITELY not buy your game for having such random scoring.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:22 pm 


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Reiker wrote:
On random item drops: we're fine with the design decision. This is not the first game with such a system - for example, Dragon Spirit has it too.


Just saying "It's in another game" is a cop-out. Bring the reasoning why you think it's good to have in your own game.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:49 pm 



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Udderdude wrote:
Bring the reasoning why you think it's good to have in your own game.


It adds diversity and challenge to the game, which would be a simple memorizer without it. Simultaneously, it's equally fair with every player attempting a score attack, just like Geometry Wars is. Both games are unpredictable, but still skill based as a result.

Sine Mora has a pace and intensity very different from the popular danmaku (it is a much slower, less intense game), serving the successful communication with the newcomers and casual players. The surprise factor and the required adaptation from the player is counterbalancing this difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:56 pm 


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Sine Mora isn't supposed to be a memoriser? Not a complaint just i thought it was supposed to be rtype-esque in that regard.

Does sine mora support replays? If so how do they work with random power-ups or does it base them off some kind of seed?
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:01 pm 


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Reiker wrote:
Both games are unpredictable, but still skill based as a result.


So, by skill based are you trying to say players are able to reach the same scores in score attack regardless of if they get suboptimal item drops (IE getting attack powerups very scarcely)?

If not, isn't it not skill based anymore because the players need to get as lucky with drops in addition of being more skilled skilled to beat the other player. as in being more skilled wouldn't make you win against the other player because of random number generator, making the game NOT skill based?

I think the problem is you didn't put any sort of countermeasures for bad luck.. if the system started increasing the probability of an item appearing or forced it to appear when it hasn't dropped for an abnormal amount of time and the same the opposite way around, the random system could balance itself out and luck of the draw wouldn't completely skew playthroughs over.

I'm pretty sure geometry wars and other games which are designed to be random from the ground up use the system like this instead of just a pure random number generator not taking into account previous events.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:17 pm 


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Reiker wrote:
Udderdude wrote:
Bring the reasoning why you think it's good to have in your own game.


It adds diversity and challenge to the game, which would be a simple memorizer without it. Simultaneously, it's equally fair with every player attempting a score attack, just like Geometry Wars is. Both games are unpredictable, but still skill based as a result.

Sine Mora has a pace and intensity very different from the popular danmaku (it is a much slower, less intense game), serving the successful communication with the newcomers and casual players. The surprise factor and the required adaptation from the player is counterbalancing this difference.


Actually, Geometry Wars IS predictable. Enemies always spawn in certain patterns; only the order of the patterns is random. You could argue that the player shot is "random" because it randomly changes at certain scoring intervals, but both shot types are of similar strength. Please note that the player strength isn't randomized, only the enemy numbers and patterns. There will never be a moment in Geometry Wars where you will have a difficult time because luck fucked you over and left you underpowered. Also, Geometry Wars is a completely different type of skill-based scoring game: comparing an endless survival/score-attack game to a stage-based finite game shows that perhaps you don't understand this genre as well as you think you do, and that's why this game will never get my $15 unless some kind of patch is released.

Zaarock wrote:
So, by skill based are you trying to say players are able to reach the same scores in score attack regardless of if they get suboptimal item drops (IE getting attack powerups very scarcely)?

If not, isn't it not skill based anymore because the players need to get as lucky with drops in addition of being more skilled skilled to beat the other player. as in being more skilled wouldn't make you win against the other player because of random number generator, making the game NOT skill based?

I think the problem is you didn't put any sort of countermeasures for bad luck.. if the system started increasing the probability of an item appearing or forced it to appear when it hasn't dropped for an abnormal amount of time and the same the opposite way around, the random system could balance itself out and luck of the draw wouldn't completely skew playthroughs over.


Quoted for truth. Pay special attention to Zaarock's last paragraph because this is a great way of having "randomized" powerups that are still balanced in the long run.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:47 pm 



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Zaarock wrote:
So, by skill based are you trying to say players are able to reach the same scores in score attack regardless of if they get suboptimal item drops (IE getting attack powerups very scarcely)?


Exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:54 pm 



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Zaarock wrote:
I'm pretty sure geometry wars and other games which are designed to be random from the ground up use the system like this instead of just a pure random number generator not taking into account previous events.

Well GW doesn't have any randomness in player strength, particularly GW2, which removed the weapon switch mechanic entirely. There is frustrating randomness, and good randomness. GW understands that it is exciting to have to deal with unpredictable groups of enemies, and not so exciting (read: awful) to randomly get screwed over by the game in such a basic way that you can't even fight back. Reiker, I'm sorry, but it really sounds like you guys had no idea what the heck you were doing :<


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:41 pm 


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Reiker wrote:
Zaarock wrote:
So, by skill based are you trying to say players are able to reach the same scores in score attack regardless of if they get suboptimal item drops (IE getting attack powerups very scarcely)?


Exactly.


Wait, what?

More powerful shot = quicker take-down of bosses = bonus points, i.e. at the other end: a player getting sub-optimal drops will get sub-optimal scores. This is in your own game. Correct me if I'm wrong here?

I think it's pretty sad that you can't acknowledge the most fairly criticized aspect of this game. Leaves little hope for improving the handful of other serious issues when you're trying to defend the simplest and worst design decision.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:55 pm 


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REBOOTING THE GENRE


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:05 pm 


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EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN PLAYING THESE GAMES FOR SCORE OR EVEN 1CC SERIOUSLY FOR MONTHS/YEARS/DECADES IS WRONG ABOUT WHAT MAKES THE GENRE GOOD WE KNOW NOTHING 'ROUND THESE PARTS STUPID SHMOOPZ FARUM

I was so hyped up for this game, too. I'm glad I didn't have the money to get it on Day One. By the time I got paid, I heard the criticisms. By the time I played the demo, I knew this game wasn't worth the $15. If you want your game to cater to the casual gamer market (and in a way, rightfully so, since that's where the MONEY is), then why ask this forum (most definitely NOT casual [in comparison to other forums, I guess]) for advice when you're not going to listen to ANY of it?

You guys said you took inspiration from a lot of great STGs, but it looks like the only thing you guys took from them was aesthetics. Either that, or you thought that Raizing games had "random" powerups (a quick look at the ST for Battle Garegga would show you that you're wrong). I don't know.

You did a great job with the production values. I'd love to see an actual GAME that matches those values, and I think you could pull it off if you'd actually listen to the people who play these games competitively. Right now you're like a FTG maker who takes their design advice from people who buttonmash or spam fireballs because they just don't know any better.

I LIEK SHOOTAN GAEM BECUZ BOOLITS AND COLORZ WUT R POWARUP WUT IZ SCOAR WUT IS BALENZE

I'm so bored.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:15 pm 


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Gus wrote:
REBOOTING THE GENRE


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:26 pm 


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I used to think randomness was TEH SHIZNIT and put it all over the place in my games.

Then I realized that was dumb.

Such is life .. >_>


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:30 pm 


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Udderdude wrote:
I used to think randomness was TEH SHIZNIT and put it all over the place in my games.


Not to get too far off topic but... where's the next installment in the XOP series, eh?!?!?!?


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:54 pm 


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TheSoundofRed wrote:
Udderdude wrote:
I used to think randomness was TEH SHIZNIT and put it all over the place in my games.


Not to get too far off topic but... where's the next installment in the XOP series, eh?!?!?!?


viewtopic.php?p=775572#p775572


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:44 pm 


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Reiker wrote:
On random item drops: we're fine with the design decision. This is not the first game with such a system - for example, Dragon Spirit has it too.


Yes, it does have random items. However, said random items are always dropped by flashing enemies which appear in uniform locations in every stage (so players know exactly where and when a random item will drop). And even then, the vast majority of power-ups (certainly the Red and Blue ones which increase shot power and the number of dragon heads respectively) come from the matching coloured eggs which sit in the background and are bombed TwinBee style with your secondary attack. All of the eggs appear in uniform locations. And finally, even your lowly pee-shooter can take down the vast majority of enemies in a single shot (and even when you're powered up, getting hit only drops you down one dragon head and maybe 2 weapon levels, still leaving the player in good strength).
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:46 pm 


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casualcoder wrote:
I tried the demo on xbla recently and was excited for its potential. I didn't play it for very long but I'm usually right about my first instincts and this one just didn't I feel right. From the very start I found myself saying "come ooonnnnnnn" too many times while waiting for the numerous and overlong cutscenes to end. Once I was playing, it wasn't much better. The ship movement was too slippery, and wasn't balanced against the bullet formations. This issue was foreshadowed by the positive reviews glowing about how you could eat bullet-after-bullet and still stay alive. In my opinion, that is not so much a design feature as much as a way to paper over the overall gameplay issues.

I also wanted to like the bullet patterns but couldn't figure out why they used a system of polarity colors like that of ikaruga or even Outland without actually having a polarity switch function In the game.

It reminds me a bit of my feelings I had when I played games like REZ and Every Extend Extra - I wanted to like it, but couldn't really find the point in it... I will give it one more try though because the reviews are quite positive.


Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't "get" Every Extend Extra. Man, am I glad I bought that second-hand and didn't pay full price. I think I've played it twice in the year and a half since I bought it.

Being that I don't have the current XBox yet, this is moot for me, but I might still consider getting this when I do. I'm really digging No More Heroes. A friend and I are working our way through it, alternating missions, and once we're done, I fully intend to go get the sequel. So while I wouldn't call myself a bonafide Suda fanatic, I must say, I'm intrigued.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:53 pm 


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CaptainRansom wrote:
There will never be a moment in Geometry Wars where you will have a difficult time because luck fucked you over and left you underpowered.

Also, Geometry Wars is a completely different type of skill-based scoring game: comparing an endless survival/score-attack game to a stage-based finite game shows that perhaps you don't understand this genre as well as you think you do


This.

Quote:
If you want your game to cater to the casual gamer market (and in a way, rightfully so, since that's where the MONEY is), then why ask this forum (most definitely NOT casual [in comparison to other forums, I guess]) for advice when you're not going to listen to ANY of it?


Because he was only interested in hyping it up and hoped we wouldn't notice it's a case of graphics over gameplay. I thought that was obvious by now.

Quote:
And finally, even your lowly pee-shooter can take down the vast majority of enemies in a single shot


You can do it in Sine Mora too... at least with a rapid fire controller. lololol

i love tapping shoot to fire in a shmup, hurting my thumb is so retro
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:37 pm 


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Eh, you can still do just fine without rapid-fire.. all the planes apart from GA-22 sort of suck though.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:51 pm 


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I think the random drops wouldn't be so bad if there was such a massive difference between been unlucky and lucky in terms of difficulty and scoring.
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