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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:52 pm 


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Image Fight: Does anyone know how to "properly" kill the third boss? I can't see a consistent pattern at all and surviving is a matter of luck for me! Can do the safe spot trick, but don't want to XD
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:14 am 



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DMC wrote:

Yeah, worth an attempt at least!

One could argue that STG developers gave up shooting* around 1995, gave up dodging** around 2010, and maybe give up scoring next? :)
* games like Batsugun featuring weapons that covers the whole screen from left to right
** games like DDP DFK featuring bullet cancelling elements.

I think maybe battle royale shmups, or party game shmups could be a thing?


I feel like you’re joking about the battle royale/party shmups, but I would unironically play the shit out of those. Though I guess you could argue that shmup-esque roguelites kinda cover the latter… and you could take the ideas of versus shmups and just blow them up, really. There’s still so much room for genre fusion on the table.


Going back to the time thing, I actually had been seriously considering mods for some of the slower-paced games like Truxton or the Touhou series, since you could just freeze the in-game timer whenever nothing’s on the screen. Giving those games a real outlet for speedrunning seems genuinely cool. As for faster games with more going on, I’d personally give them a more tongue-in-cheek treatment— imagine firing back on all the people complaining about Futari at GDQ by making a mod called “Futari Done Quick.”


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:23 am 



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How are you going to make time in Futari? Manage the slowdown so the game runs faster? Play it in MAME without slowdown? I don't think it has any speed mechanics whatsoever. Attempting to speedrun Battle Garegga is about as harebrained as attempting to speedrun a visual novel. You say the distinction with scoring is arbitrary, but then if it were, why would "proper competition distinct from score" matter? It can't be arbitrary and proper and distinctive at once.

The point of speedrunning is to provide an objective measure of skill in games where that's not normally tracked or is badly implemented. But shooting games already have a measure of skill which is a thousand times better supported than speed, called score. And the few games that do support speed play do it natively anyway (other examples: Mecha Ritz, Kingdom Grandprix). Even Touhou games started tracking your capture times - which is the only part where speed matters or can really be influenced; the rest of the game is irrelevant however the timer is implemented.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:59 pm 


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I'm playing Muchi Muchi Pork/Pink Sweets on the 360 and for some reason the Save and Load options are greyed out. I have a ton of HDD space available, but the game won't let me save my settings, forcing me to remap buttons and screen settings every time I play. Anyone know what the heck is going on?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:16 pm 


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SPM wrote:
Image Fight: Does anyone know how to "properly" kill the third boss? I can't see a consistent pattern at all and surviving is a matter of luck for me! Can do the safe spot trick, but don't want to XD


It's been a decade since I cleared it but I'm pretty sure you can fly up between a couple of the turrets which fire the lasers, so that they miss you entirely.

Failing that, parking in one spot towards the bottom of the screen and tap-dodging vertically as they turn towards you should see you through each attack, and there's plenty of time to shoot the boss between each volley. There could be something I'm forgetting, though, so I could be talking nonsense...

Edit: oops, I somehow didn't realise you were referring to the same trick there. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:05 pm 


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Technicolor: I was not sarcastic, I think battle royal and STGs would go well together. The caravan footage of about 20-30 players challenging each other is maybe something worth building upon.

Any suggestions on a good stick that is Switch compatible and suitable for shmups? Around a 150$ budget. This hori arcade one?

Edit: or the mini one? Or an 8bitdo modded with some seimitsu stick? I am slightly concerned but not obsessed with lag.
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Last edited by DMC on Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:14 pm 


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DMC wrote:
Any suggestions on a good stick that is Switch compatible and suitable for shmups? Around a 150$ budget. This one?


Yep, that one is great! I haven't felt any need to mod it, as all the components feel great straight out of the box.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 pm 


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Great, thanks! I think I favor a simple option that works well out-of-the-box.
Edit: Think I'll mod an 8bitdo after all.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:42 am 



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Lethe wrote:
How are you going to make time in Futari? Manage the slowdown so the game runs faster? Play it in MAME without slowdown? I don't think it has any speed mechanics whatsoever.


Read: Tongue-in-cheek. Obviously you can’t speedrun Futari or Garegga in the conventional sense. The idea is to point out that time and score are fundamentally similar to a mainstream gaming audience which has forgotten about scoring. Especially since score competition has been piggybacking off of GDQ to the ire of speedrun purists. I’m admittedly a little bitter about this, so feel free to write the idea off on those grounds if you want, but I’m cynical enough to wonder how many of said purists would be satisfied with such a simple change on paper.

I do genuinely think that slower shmups could have more potential, though. Just freeze the in-game timer whenever there are no enemies on the screen in Truxton or Touhou, and you at least have a baseline for more interesting speedrun competition even if it might not be especially popular (and Touhou 6 was at GDQ as a genuine speedrun not long ago, so who knows?).


Lethe wrote:
You say the distinction with scoring is arbitrary, but then if it were, why would "proper competition distinct from score" matter? It can't be arbitrary and proper and distinctive at once.


Sure it can. Every scoring system has a relationship with time at its core, even if not stated outright (it rarely is), so I personally view Time Attack as just another type of scoring competition. Because of that, I view the way that people treat them as completely unrelated as silly. That’s a matter of categorization that has no bearing as to how multiple scoring systems can be distinct and meaningful in the context of a specific game. Hellsinker has three different scoring systems, all of which being completely and arbitrarily independent from one another— and having unique routing and competition since they have little redundancy between them.


Even if you ported a shmup’s scoring system over wholesale to the hypothetical timer mode, the fact that a timer ticks up/down has the potential to change the route from the interactions with multipliers alone. Make other changes here and there and you’ve essentially made yourself a shortcut to a new Arrange Mode. Not that I think such a large undertaking as modding an old classic would be worth it for just that… tongue-in-cheek, remember, and I generally agree that timers are ill-suited to shmups. Nobody wants Sine Mora Futari.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:27 am 



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Moreso than most spectators not knowing that scoreplay exists, many of them don't even know what these games look like! And despite that and despite "purists", the response to these showcases has been very positive. People are impressed by the spectacle of these games; there's a glamour there that hits on a different level to your contemporary speedrun stereotype of taking an easy, probably long game with nostalgia appeal and abusing the hell out of it. Even dedicated shmup events, full of people actually interested in the genre, involve many a first exposure or first appreciation of a featured game. Why not continue to champion the best qualities of these games instead of bastardizing them to pander to a pedantic minority or a mainstream that will never care?

As to popularity, I would rather have one player working on their goals, exploring games to the best of their means, than a hundred spectators who have only ever been exposed to some neutered version of play. That applies to those who get all their experience from traditional superplays too. Just having live events at all is an immeasurable improvement. It's kind of similar to the fighting game situation, where "dead genre" was cried for years until it wasn't and started getting absorbed into e-sports crap, while all the while the players who actually cared quietly kept playing. Except in this case, you're not hampered by a lack of immediate opponents.

I'm not going to try with the twisted logic re: "arbitrariness" and speed being a substitute for score because there's elements of timing and because games have different mechanics. There's a difference between innovation and differing conditions of play, and forcing the square peg into the round hole. Perhaps I shouldn't be arguing because tongue in cheek, right? Tongue in cheek.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:15 am 


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Perhaps a silly questions but: Esprade, Switch.

How do you unlock energy mode (where fallen enemies drop energy points that fill up your barrier meter)?

Is it automatic? Or do you press / do something in order to initiate it? I notice you need to have at least 200 en points to activate it. But sometimes it doesn't happen to me until at least 250 plus.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:46 am 


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Once you're fully powered up enemies start dropping red point items; as you collect those the counter you mentioned fills up. Once it's maxed out, if you use your barrier bomb enemies briefly start dropping energy items to help fill it back up. After that the counter resets to zero and takes more point items to fill up than before.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:24 pm 


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I'm confused by the rapid fire options in the Switch port of Mushihimesama.

I've been trying to get back into the game (original mode), but I just can't find my rhythm. I used to do fine back when I played the PS2 version, but now things keep dying at not quite the exact same time I expect them to, and that's throwing me off.

So please, how do I have to configure the rapid fire in the newer port to get the same frequency as I got on the PS2?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:53 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Once you're fully powered up enemies start dropping red point items; as you collect those the counter you mentioned fills up. Once it's maxed out, if you use your barrier bomb enemies briefly start dropping energy items to help fill it back up. After that the counter resets to zero and takes more point items to fill up than before.


Thanks, but I'm aware of all of that. What I'm not sure about is how it's triggered. Is it automatic, or can I choose when to trigger it?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:49 am 


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Terramax wrote:
BulletMagnet wrote:
Once you're fully powered up enemies start dropping red point items; as you collect those the counter you mentioned fills up. Once it's maxed out, if you use your barrier bomb enemies briefly start dropping energy items to help fill it back up. After that the counter resets to zero and takes more point items to fill up than before.


Thanks, but I'm aware of all of that. What I'm not sure about is how it's triggered. Is it automatic, or can I choose when to trigger it?


Once you have the 'max' amount of red point items, any use of the bomb will instantly trigger all enemies dropping energy instead of red points, and the red points will start draining. Slightly more detailed explanation at this timestamp: https://youtu.be/H3Yms0tpa18?t=704


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:23 am 


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That's great, many thanks for the clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:23 pm 


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Curious if anyone's cleared SDOJ with a no miss/bomb on Inbachi. I don't use NicoVideo so it's very well possible I've never seen a video of it. But I can't find any on YouTube that aren't VERY understandably TAS. I mean specifically killing Inbachi cleanly, not perfecting the whole run.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:38 pm 


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Has anyone listed some of the best live shmup runs with an audience--available on youtube, twitch, etc?
I have enjoyed some stunfest demonstrations lately, and wonder if there's a lot more I'm missing.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:04 pm 


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XoPachi wrote:
Curious if anyone's cleared SDOJ with a no miss/bomb on Inbachi. I don't use NicoVideo so it's very well possible I've never seen a video of it. But I can't find any on YouTube that aren't VERY understandably TAS. I mean specifically killing Inbachi cleanly, not perfecting the whole run.

Nobody's defeated Inbachi with conditions that are actually possible in a real run, even in practice mode. The closest is Sairyou's extremely recent win with an extra bomb-per-life and life compared to a real expert run ( https://twitter.com/SrhuDSTG/status/1426094682929438720 ). You can only reach Inbachi on a no-miss no-bomb run in the first place, so I'm not quite sure what your additional constraints mean. If you mean NMNB Inbachi, that's not possible by humans and never will be done.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:06 pm 


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DMC wrote:
Has anyone listed some of the best live shmup runs with an audience--available on youtube, twitch, etc?
I have enjoyed some stunfest demonstrations lately, and wonder if there's a lot more I'm missing.


Of course, there is always Gus' Futari Ultra run at GDQ back in early 2020.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:50 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
If you mean NMNB Inbachi, that's not possible by humans and never will be done.


I didn't know the conditions for reaching her. But I guess this answers the question concretely.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:34 pm 



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DMC wrote:
Has anyone listed some of the best live shmup runs with an audience--available on youtube, twitch, etc?
I have enjoyed some stunfest demonstrations lately, and wonder if there's a lot more I'm missing.


This one is quite amazing (Mushihimeaama Ultra)
https://youtu.be/kj2RfWbD1CM


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:38 pm 


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I don't understand Darius Burst's laser mechanic.
I see people do little laser duels with the bosses, but whenever I try it, I just instantly die. I don't get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:34 pm 



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XoPachi wrote:
I don't understand Darius Burst's laser mechanic.
I see people do little laser duels with the bosses, but whenever I try it, I just instantly die. I don't get it.


If you are using any ship with default burst laser, you'll have to to hit the red enemy laser while your burst laser is charging up (There is a short delay before the laser starts to shoot after you press the button).

Red enemy lasers signaled by three pings can be countered. If you get a golden burst laser, you got the timing right and after that you can use it to charge your burst meter too by keeping hitting the enemy red laser.

You can either wait the boss to shoot the laser directly at you (Usually around the last ping is okay, but I don't recall correctly) or you can "cut in" to lasers, as long as you hit it while your own laser is charging. I find cutting in easier, but I know some people who prefer the direct approach. Golden laser kills have bigger multiplier too so it's important for scoring. The counter burst also lasts longer and does more damage than normal burst.

There is that one ship that has that odd plasma ball burst (I forgot the name now but it's not Gaiden's bomb), you can actually burst counter with it too just like mentioned earlier. The ball will come out golden at that point.

If you are using Murakumo or Genesis, you can just hit the red enemy lasers without timing it.

The timing can be a bit difficult to get at first, but it'll be rewarding and helpful once you start getting it. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:34 pm 


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Friend is looking for a game he only recalls seeing when he was super young in arcades.
-Vertical scroller
-First level is a future city
-Most clearly remembers a green mecha crab tank boss that enters from the bottom and moves really fast


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:43 pm 


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That's gotta be Aero Fighters 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm 


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I spam this place a lot, but I always have little curiosities that only this place would be able to help me with...
Anyway, GT's theme in Darius Burst is called "Hello 31337". What's the meaning behind that number?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:15 pm 


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"Hello Elite." Great Thing only grants audience to pilots of stern stuff. Or generous credit feeders. :wink:

Or maybe GT is the "Elite" being referenced. "Goodbye My Earth" and "Pay Blue's Respects" seem titled from the protagonists' POV.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:04 pm 


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GT has a history across the series of being one of the tougher fights as well as always being a full swollen teat that can be milked like crazy for ridiculous points.

Yeah it's gotta be a reference to 1337 Pwnage orz. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:21 pm 


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You know, I knew for years that 1337 means "leet" and refers to leet speak, but I never actually realized it means "elite", I just kinda accepted it as a nonsensical word from internet culture :P


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