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 Post subject: Shmup Glossary Discussion Thread (UPDATED 3-15-09)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:19 pm 


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Okay, the latest revision of the Unofficial Shmup Glossary will be up shortly (edit: it's up, see link below!): however, I've come to an agreement with bloodflowers to split the actual glossary and the discussion about it into two threads, as follows.

The first thread will contain the actual glossary list, and will be stickied for easy reference and updates. I request that you do not post on that thread, and instead save your suggestions/comments/etc. for...

...the second thread, namely this one, which will contain all of the discussion about the glossary. I will post a list of topics and possible additions, etc. up for review/debate, which I will also update, and all comments, suggestions, et al will also go here.

The main reasons I've done this are a) Neatness, since the previous glossary topic was simply huge when it contained both the list and discussion; b) Ease of updates, since I can now simply request that the discussion thread be closed and easily start up a new one if it gets too long, without having to completely repost the actual glossary as well; and c) Load time, since opening the first page of the old glossary thread, where the actual list was, could take quite awhile, even though there were no images: now, at least, if you want to simply discuss the list without having to wait for it to load/scroll way down past it, you can do so. In short, hopefully gettings things done as far as the glossary is concerned will hopefully be easier and more pleasant from here on in.

Link to actual Glossary thread is here.

In any event, as always, if you have any comments or whatnot about any of this, post here or PM me: the next post in this thread will be my compiled list of items I'd like to see discussed, though if you can think of anything else to add by all means post it. Thanks much! :)
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Glossary / Discussion / The Bizaar / Vasara HS


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:21 pm 


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Okay, here are the possible discussion items I've managed to write down so far:

(last updated 3-15-09)

---------------

Terms Under Consideration for Next Update

“Avatar” – General term for either “crafts” or “people” controlled by the player?

“Big Bang” – Still not sure exactly what this term entails…someone mentioned that it’s mentioned in a document for Night Raid, could you expound on exactly what it describes?

“Bullet-Wobbling” - Rob, verbatim - “Your movement changes the speed/direction of bullets. If a bullet is moving left and you move left, it speeds up. Same bullet, move right and it slows down.” Worth adding?

“Command Motion” or “Macro” – “Street Fighter” type motions for special attacks…too infrequently used in shmups to be listed here? Too general a term?

“Corridor” – A “path” formed of bullets. Maybe a sub-term…?

“Cruise Shmup” – A shmup in which you’re all but invincible once powered up…“official” enough?

“Dead Space” – Spots where nothing much happens onscreen…worth a mention?

“Flash Clear (Bullet Clear, Bullet Wipe, Screen Wipe)” – Were debating this near the end of the last topic…any consensus?

“Gimmick” – Heavily-debated term…too general, negative-sounding?

“Gravity/Cave/Thrust Shooters” a la Solar Jetman, maybe Asteroids…worth an item?

“Item Spawn” – Items appearing after dying, etc…worth a mention?

“Kai/Quad” – Most famous in Giga Wing…exactly how much is a “Kai,” exactly? Moreover, is it worth listing?

“Monkey” – Psikyo term for easiest difficulty, sometimes generally used for toning down a shmup’s difficulty…Glossary-worthy?

“One-Hit Wonder” – Shmups in which you die after one hit…worth an entry, or too common?

“Popcorn Spam” – A horde of popcorn enemies meant to overwhelm you…worth entering?

“Power-Up Bar” – a la Gradius…very famous, but rather series-specific…

“Powerup Carrier” – Listed separately from “Pod?”

“Radial Pulse” – Complete circular formation of bullets…worth a listing?

“Rush” – Moving quickly towards a target, either the player or an enemy…worth a mention?

“Russian Doll”— A la Psikyo bosses…is listed on shmup.com, worth putting here?

“Safe Spot” – Too self-explanatory/general?

“Semi-Auto” – Autofire which only lasts a short time when the button is held…worth listing? Also a second definition, a la Parodius?

”Semi-Homing” – Also “Tracer”…weapons/bullets that sort of home in, but not as reliably as “normal” homing weapons. Worth an item?

“Session” – Single “sit-down” with one or more shmups made up of various “runs”…too general?

“Shotgun” – A slow-firing spread weapon with bullet-eating abilities…only heard of the term used in old Capcom shooters, worth mentioning?

“Slalom” – Navigating down a corridor of bullets and dodging single shots in your way along it, in similar fashion to a ski course. Nifty term: “official” enough?

“Sweep Attack” – Bullet pattern a la rotating turret fire…worth a mention?

“True/Fake Lo-Res” – Not a shmup-exclusive term, but mentioned often enough around here…

“The Zone” – Dunno whether a consensus will ever be reached on this one, considering its notoriously fickle nature…

-------------

Existing Items Up for Possible Elimination:

“Alternate View” -- Possibly condense into “Vertizontal?”

“Wrap-around scrolling” -- Not shmup-specific enough?

“Crowd Control” -- Not used often enough?

“Paint” -- See above.

-------------

Miscellaneous Things Also Under Consideration:

Need some specifics as to the origin of the term “shmup” in that “Zzap!” magazine…

Considering additional details in the definition for “shmup”…

“See Also” notations/separate “Alternate Terms” Index -- …might make navigation easier?

“Homebrew” to “Doujin” -- Is either term more widely-used than the other?

Twitch Shmups -- I’ve heard this term applied to both Manic and Old-School shmups…which is it?

“People Shooter?” -- Alternate term/extra notation under “Character Shooter?”

“Schtick ‘em up?” -- Alternate term/extra notation under “Cute-‘em-Up?”

“Cockpit?” -- Alternate term for “Hitbox?”

Even-Less-Official Terms List? -- I had a thread for this some time ago, and saved a few of them…include, just for humor/fun? Or make a separate thread?

“Gunpod” – Also “official” term for limited-ammo weapons, a la Einhander?

“Trip Wire” – a la RSG’s Homing Plasma, et al: a weapon which sends out a “scanning beam” and attacks when anything crosses it. Possible sub-entry under “Lock-On,” or…?

Term for enemies which appear with no warning (i.e. from the back)? “Stealth?” “Ninja,” maybe?

“Maze Shooter” a la Wizard of Wor or Pulsar…sub-section under “Borderliner” maybe?

-----------

Please feel free to contribute others!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:33 pm 


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Da Vinci = a player's arcade initials.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:18 pm 


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jpj wrote:
Da Vinci = a player's arcade initials.

I personally haven't heard that one before...is that more of a "general arcade" term than a shmup term? Or might it even be more along the lines of "John Hancock" for a signature?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:57 pm 


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my apologies. yeah, more of "arcade slang" i suppose.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:21 pm 


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Okay, here we go:

  • “Autofire Rate/Hack” – A la Mushi…worth a mention?
    Yes, definitely. Autofire is an important feature in many shootemups, and when a game does not feature auto as part of the dipsettings/options, then there may be attempts to add it as a hardware-assisted feature. Auto is often used to spare the hands/wrists from pain (leading to stuff like RSI, not pleasant), and in many cases helps players to maneuver a lot more accurately (as you aren't smashing buttons while you're moving).

    While autohacks can save physical pain, they can often aid and produce higher scores as well (see Mushi, Raiden etc), leading scores to be seperated by autohack usage in magazines like Arcadia.
  • “Command Motion” – “Street Fighter” type motions for special attacks…too infrequently used in shmups to be listed here? Too general a term?
    Not seen in too many shooters, most usage of commands are for attacks, while one particular example is for uncovering secrets. The only games I know of that feature command motions for attacks are Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang, while Batsugun does the commands for secrets thing.
  • “Enclosure Attack” – An attack meant to trap the player in a small space…official-enough term, or no?
    Yup, I'd say that that is the 'official term' for this kind of attack, also known as a 'trapping attack'. Popularised by Garegga and Black Heart's moving vulcan attack, although maybe have appeared in an earlier game. Raiden Fighters does it as well (helicopter boss).
  • “Flash Clear (Bullet Clear, Bullet Wipe, Screen Wipe)” – Were debating this near the end of the last topic…any consensus?
    Pops up a lot in modern games (especially ones with a lot of bullets, or a particular scoring mechanic).
  • “Leech” – Synonym of “Milk,” or is there more to it?
    Both the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Might want to note that milking/leeching can involve both attacking indestructible things for points, or forcing mass generation of powerups/score items (see Psikyo boss drone milking).
  • “Powerup Carrier” – Listed separately from “Pod?”
    Both the same thing.
  • ”Wall” -- Sometimes used as a generic term for obstacles/surroundings in a shmup that will harm you if you hit them…worth listing?
    Also refers to that point in the game where progress completely stops, and takes months of practice to pass.


Everything else is up to your discretion. ^_-
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:04 pm 


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Icarus wrote:
“Autofire Rate/Hack” – A la Mushi…worth a mention?
Yes, definitely.

Hm, okay, I'll probably add that in if others concur. While I'm on this topic, should "autofire rate" and autofire hack" be separate terms, or should I group them otherwise?

Quote:
“Command Motion” – “Street Fighter” type motions for special attacks…too infrequently used in shmups to be listed here? Too general a term?The only games I know of that feature command motions for attacks are Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang...

IIRC one of the Cho Aniki games also uses this, and maybe one or two others...there's also at least one doujin game which uses them (by the same guy who did Warning Forever, I forget its name), though that doesn't really count.

Quote:
...while Batsugun does the commands for secrets thing.

STILL the freakin' weirdest out-of-nowhere play mechanic EVER! :P

Quote:
“Enclosure Attack” – An attack meant to trap the player in a small space…official-enough term, or no?
Yup, I'd say that that is the 'official term' for this kind of attack, also known as a 'trapping attack'.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this one?

Quote:
Popularised by Garegga and Black Heart's moving vulcan attack...

I already mentioned that specific type of attack under "Net," but I could provide a cross-reference.

Quote:
“Flash Clear (Bullet Clear, Bullet Wipe, Screen Wipe)” – Were debating this near the end of the last topic…any consensus?
Pops up a lot in modern games (especially ones with a lot of bullets, or a particular scoring mechanic).

I certainly don't dispute its existence, I'm mainly concerned about which (if any) of this myriad of terms should be used, heh heh. ;)

Quote:
“Leech” – Synonym of “Milk,” or is there more to it?
Both the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, can anyone confirm that?

Quote:
Might want to note that milking/leeching can involve both attacking indestructible things for points...

I think I covered this under "Chip," but again, a cross-reference would work well here.

Quote:
...or forcing mass generation of powerups/score items (see Psikyo boss drone milking).

Would this fall into the same category as the "Gain/Bornnam bomb trick" against Blacky Mk. II's mine attack, or am I not following your train of thought correctly?

Quote:
“Powerup Carrier” – Listed separately from “Pod?”
Both the same thing.

"Pod" seems bloated to me as it stands, though, I'm tempted to split it up...

Quote:
”Wall” -- Sometimes used as a generic term for obstacles/surroundings in a shmup that will harm you if you hit them…worth listing?
Also refers to that point in the game where progress completely stops, and takes months of practice to pass.

Heh, indeed, though I think the phrase "to hit a wall" is pretty much applicable to just about any task you can take yourself to, shmupping or not...unless, of course, you're referring to both the literal and metaphorical wall on Garegga's stage 6. ;)

Quote:
Everything else is up to your discretion.

You're a reckless fella, you are. :mrgreen: Thanks for the input! :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:22 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Hm, okay, I'll probably add that in if others concur. While I'm on this topic, should "autofire rate" and autofire hack" be separate terms, or should I group them otherwise?


Have them as subterms in the same general heading...? (I don't know the direction you're taking for formatting your glossary, I'm kind of thinking something like an encyclo with general and subterms etc). Up to you.

BulletMagnet wrote:
STILL the freakin' weirdest out-of-nowhere play mechanic EVER! :P


Indeed it is. But it's there, and it fits under the 'command motion' heading. Again, up to you if you are going to include it, it's your glossary after all. (Good to have some kind of example to put the glossary items into context ^_-)

BulletMagnet wrote:
I already mentioned that specific type of attack under "Net," but I could provide a cross-reference.


Ahh yeah, didn't see that one. Quite a few different versions of the net attack, including the aforementioned moving vulcan of Black Heart's, as well as the grid attack of one of the forms of Ikaruga's last boss, Dimahoo's Infernon (stage5 boss), Yukari Horiguchi in Shikigami no Shiro 2...

Enclosure Attack, Trapping Attack and Net are pretty much the same thing, don't you think?

BulletMagnet wrote:
I certainly don't dispute its existence, I'm mainly concerned about which (if any) of this myriad of terms should be used, heh heh. ;)


Dunno. Whichever one of them is use the most, and the others as alternatives?

BulletMagnet wrote:
I think I covered this under "Chip," but again, a cross-reference would work well here.


First time I've heard of that term used in that context. Works well though. Cross-referencing could be good.

BulletMagnet wrote:
Would this fall into the same category as the "Gain/Bornnam bomb trick" against Blacky Mk. II's mine attack, or am I not following your train of thought correctly?


Hmmm... I would tend to agree with that, as they do both exploit a recurring feature of the game for more points.

BulletMagnet wrote:
Heh, indeed, though I think the phrase "to hit a wall" is pretty much applicable to just about any task you can take yourself to, shmupping or not...unless, of course, you're referring to both the literal and metaphorical wall on Garegga's stage 6. ;)


Well, a lot of players use the sentence 'hit that goddamn wall' when they run up against a section that seems impassable, so I thought I'd put it down for your consideration. ^_-

BulletMagnet wrote:
You're a reckless fella, you are. :mrgreen: Thanks for the input! :)


Glad to help.
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“Big Bang” – Still not sure exactly what this term entails…someone mentioned that it’s mentioned in a document for Night Raid, could you expound on exactly what it describes?

--> AFAIK a big bang happens when the game displays so many bullets it exceeds the capabilities of the hardware, an dbullets turn to medals... Not sure!

“Boss Warning” – Worth mentioning, or too self-explanatory/inconsequential?

--> Why not.

“Bullet Hell” – Alternate term for “Manic Shmup?” Though this one’s been kind of muddy in the past as to exactly what it refers to…

--> Pretty useless imho.

“Command Motion” – “Street Fighter” type motions for special attacks…too infrequently used in shmups to be listed here? Too general a term?

--> I've never seen tat is a shmup?? Please give some examples!

“Danmaku” – Alternate term for “Bullet Hell?”

--> alternate term for manic shooter

“Dead Space” – Spots where nothing much happens onscreen…worth a mention?

--> never heard that term

“Enclosure Attack” – An attack meant to trap the player in a small space…official-enough term, or no?

--> sounds good

“Flash Clear (Bullet Clear, Bullet Wipe, Screen Wipe)” – Were debating this near the end of the last topic…any consensus?

--> a term for this kind of thing could be useful, yes... To me, bullet clear is not the same as screen wipe, or is it? A smart bombs clears the enemies too, not only the bullets...

“Gimmick” – Heavily-debated term…too general, negative-sounding?

--> dunno what it is

”Gravity/Cave Shooters” a la Solar Jetman, maybe Asteroids…worth an item?

--> meh. i nevertheless love Gravity Force on Amiga.

"Hybrid Attack”— 2-players-at-once special attack…too infrequently used?

--> I've never seen tat is a shmup?? Please give some examples!

“Item Spawn” – Items appearing after dying, etc…worth a mention?

--> no (imho, as always)

“Kai/Quad” – Most famous in Giga Wing…exactly how much is a “Kai,” exactly? Moreover, is it worth listing?

--> yes! it was my idea i think ;)

“Leech” – Synonym of “Milk,” or is there more to it?

--> synonym, both should be in the glossary

“Oldschool/Raiden-Style” – “Manic” has a listing, should this as well?

--> Sure!

“Stage Select/Practice/Training Mode” -- Unique listing, or possibly grouped w/ Score Attack, etc.?

--> is score attack some kind of training?

“Rush” – Moving quickly towards a target, either the player or an enemy…worth a mention?

--> why not, though the meaning is quite clear

“Russian Doll”— A la Psikyo bosses…is listed on shmup.com, worth putting here?

--> yes - because we want more russian dolls!

“Safe Spot” – Too self-explanitory/general?

--> worth listing

“Fake/True Lo-Res” – Not a shmup-exclusive term, but mentioned often enough around here…

--> good luck if you try to add this to the glossary and not get immediately flamed

“Tube Shooter” – Group under “Borderliner,” or give its own item?

--> group. Tube Panic FTW!

”Wall” -- Sometimes used as a generic term for obstacles/surroundings in a shmup that will harm you if you hit them…worth listing?

--> yes, as they're usually not "walls", they could be lava or trees or whatever, but we still call them "walls" ;)

“The Zone” – Dunno whether a consensus will ever be reached on this one, considering its notoriously fickle nature…

--> define it through how it helps doing a good run, not what it is

Existing Items Up for Possible Elimination:

“Alternate View” -- Possibly condense into “Vertizontal?”

--> what's that??

“Crowd Control” -- Not used often enough?

--> what's that??

“Paint” -- See above.

--> what's that??


Separate the List from the Discussion/Sticky? -- Should I ask the mods to sticky a separate thread for the Glossary itself, and update that based on the discussions held in separate threads? Might make the page load faster…

--> yes!

“See Also” notations/separate “Alternate Terms” Index -- …might make navigation easier?

--> unfortunately, i don't think hyperlinks can be used in the forum. Unfortunately, Malc could add the glossary to the site but probably won't do it.

“Homebrew” to “Doujin” -- Is either term more widely-used than the other?

--> both are used, both should appear in the glossary

Separate “Superplay,” “Double Play,” “Kusoplay” from “Replay?”

--> group them, as you will group the different kinds of borderliners

Caravan (origin) -- Was this term coined by the Hudson “Caravan Shooting Collection?”

--> i think so

Core (origin) -- Coined by Gradius’s “Shoot the Core?”

--> dunno. Should core appear as a synonym of weak point?

Option (origin) -- Similarly coined by Gradius?

--> aren't these sometimes called "bits" too?

Way that stages in loops are displayed (1-1, 2-1, 3-1, etc.) -- Should there be some note someplace about this?

--> why not

“Shmupmeet/Shmeet” -- Worth mentioning?

--> shmeets are great, so yes!

“True Tate?” -- I hear this term used a lot, should I note this somehow, under Tate’s item?

--> what's that?

“People Shooter?” -- Alternate term/extra notation under “Character Shooter?”

--> who says people shooter?

“Schtick ‘em up?” -- Alternate term/extra notation under “Cute-‘em-Up?”

--> who says Schtick ‘em up?

“Cockpit?” -- Alternate term for “Hitbox?”

--> no, afaik




I've removed a few terms from your original list, this doesn't necessarily mean i don't approve them or whatever!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:43 am 


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Good amount of discussion already, I'll try to cover the "highlights," for lack of a better term:

Icarus wrote:
(I don't know the direction you're taking for formatting your glossary, I'm kind of thinking something like an encyclo with general and subterms etc). Up to you.

Well, despite what you and a few others have said, this really isn't "my" glossary: most of the stuff in here was contributed by members here, I'm just the schmo who puts it all in one place. As such, I'm trying to find something of a "happy medium" between those who say "put in as much as you can" and those who say "keep it to the essentials": comprehensive, but not overstuffed.

Quote:
Indeed it is. But it's there, and it fits under the 'command motion' heading. Again, up to you if you are going to include it, it's your glossary after all. (Good to have some kind of example to put the glossary items into context ^_-)

Heh, that it is. Still looking for some more feedback on whether the term's even worth a mention here though...

Quote:
Enclosure Attack, Trapping Attack and Net are pretty much the same thing, don't you think?

Hmm...close, but not quite, I'd say...you're quite right, most enclosure attacks do take the "net" formation, but offhand I also recall a few which trap you inside a thin "corridor" of bullets and then send a few stray shots down the "corridor" which you have to barely tap by to get past...maybe the last attack Mushi's second stage boss throws at you would fit in there...

Quote:
Whichever one of them is use the most, and the others as alternatives?

S'what I'm tryin' to figure out. ^_^;

Quote:
First time I've heard of that term used in that context. Works well though.

The term is somewhat similarly used in tournament fighting games, where small amounts of damage done by special moves when blocking is sometimes called "chip damage."

Quote:
Hmmm... I would tend to agree with that, as they do both exploit a recurring feature of the game for more points.

Sounds like you're kind of on the fence though, can you give a more appropriate example, to make sure I follow you?

fl0w wrote:
AFAIK a big bang happens when the game displays so many bullets it exceeds the capabilities of the hardware, an dbullets turn to medals... Not sure!

That definition would apply only to Giga Wing 2, though, and it's apparently been used elsewhere...

Quote:
“Bullet Hell” – Alternate term for “Manic Shmup?” Though this one’s been kind of muddy in the past as to exactly what it refers to…

--> Pretty useless imho.

It's certainly used often enough around here, there's gotta be SOME place for it in the glossary...

Quote:
To me, bullet clear is not the same as screen wipe, or is it? A smart bombs clears the enemies too, not only the bullets...

Hmm, good point, maybe a cross reference to "bomb" is in order...

Quote:
"Hybrid Attack”— 2-players-at-once special attack…too infrequently used?

--> I've never seen tat is a shmup?? Please give some examples!

Hmm...there's Dogyuun, where the 1P and 2P ships can combine into one big ship with bigger firepower...then there's the "chain" option formation in Garegga, maybe one or two others...

Quote:
“Stage Select/Practice/Training Mode” -- Unique listing, or possibly grouped w/ Score Attack, etc.?

--> is score attack some kind of training?

Sometimes they're pretty much one and the same (the Giga Wings come to mind), but not always...

Quote:
“Rush” – Moving quickly towards a target, either the player or an enemy…worth a mention?

--> why not, though the meaning is quite clear

Yeah, the latter part of that statement is why I'm hesitant on it...

Quote:
Separate the List from the Discussion/Sticky? -- Should I ask the mods to sticky a separate thread for the Glossary itself, and update that based on the discussions held in separate threads? Might make the page load faster…

--> yes!

Aw fudge, is that still there? it's kinda already been done... :oops: I kept it here as a reminder before I got the OK from bloodflowers, and forgot to remove it...will remedy shortly. Doh.

Quote:
Unfortunately, Malc could add the glossary to the site but probably won't do it.

I wasn't really planning anything like that for the glossary, so I'm not concerned about that.

Quote:
“Cockpit?” -- Alternate term for “Hitbox?”

--> no, afaik

I think Rando used it in his Border Down ST, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it elsewhere...

Keep the discussion coming!
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Alternate View: This is ambiguous since one could take it as "alternating," like in the definition, or "alternative," for projected 3D views like in Axelay, Viewpoint, and rail shooters.

Danmaku/Bullet Hell/Manic: I think danmaku is the same as bullet hell but not the same as manic. AFAICT, bullet hell just describes the amount of bullets, but manic describes some function of amount and speed. But I've missed a lot of the big terminology arguments here, so I dunno.

Radial Pulse: Sounds too specific and self-evident to me.

Time Attack: In some games, the goal is instead to reach a preset score as quickly as possible.

The Zone: You could just say that it's "widely reported" as a state of unusual clarity that improves performance or something.
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shiftace wrote:
Alternate View: This is ambiguous since one could take it as "alternating," like in the definition, or "alternative," for projected 3D views like in Axelay, Viewpoint, and rail shooters.

Hmm...then you'd be in favor of just sticking with "Vertizontal?"

Quote:
Danmaku/Bullet Hell/Manic: I think danmaku is the same as bullet hell but not the same as manic. AFAICT, bullet hell just describes the amount of bullets, but manic describes some function of amount and speed. But I've missed a lot of the big terminology arguments here, so I dunno.

To further confuse matters, I've heard manics sometimes called "bullet hell shmups"...this term's really a doozy, heh heh.

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Time Attack: In some games, the goal is instead to reach a preset score as quickly as possible.

Hmm, okay, I'll make sure to mention that in the next update.

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The Zone: You could just say that it's "widely reported" as a state of unusual clarity that improves performance or something.

Hee hee, this term really sticks out like a sore thumb amidst the rest, doesn't it? :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:51 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
shiftace wrote:
Alternate View: This is ambiguous since one could take it as "alternating," like in the definition, or "alternative," for projected 3D views like in Axelay, Viewpoint, and rail shooters.

Hmm...then you'd be in favor of just sticking with "Vertizontal?"

Actually, given the choice, I'd avoid using invented words. In addition, right now, there are 2 definitions for "vertizontal," and #2 refers to "alternating view." So I'd choose "alternating view." To mince words a little more, I think "alternating" is still accurate in the case when the stages don't strictly alternate.

And now that I've thought about this for too long, here's another quibble: should this term include stuff like Gradius 4+5, where the ship orientation remains horizontal although the screen scrolls vertically in places? I don't think it should.

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Quote:
Danmaku/Bullet Hell/Manic: I think danmaku is the same as bullet hell but not the same as manic. AFAICT, bullet hell just describes the amount of bullets, but manic describes some function of amount and speed. But I've missed a lot of the big terminology arguments here, so I dunno.

To further confuse matters, I've heard manics sometimes called "bullet hell shmups"...this term's really a doozy, heh heh.

Yeah, the way I try to split them up, there are manic bullet hell shmups, and there are shmups that are one or the other. I really don't know, needs more opinions. Maybe there's a consensus definition of danmaku in Japanese communities.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:35 pm 


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shiftace wrote:
Actually, given the choice, I'd avoid using invented words.

I have seen that word used by others from time to time, so I didn't quite come up with it out of thin air, though it is true that it's not one of the more common terms in use.

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In addition, right now, there are 2 definitions for "vertizontal," and #2 refers to "alternating view." So I'd choose "alternating view."

I'm still wondering whether it'd be best to just condense everything and avoid a bit of confusion, though...a handful of people questioned the validity of "Alternate View" as a term on the previous discussion topic.

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To mince words a little more, I think "alternating" is still accurate in the case when the stages don't strictly alternate.

I'm inclined to agree, I'll keep that one under consideration.

Quote:
And now that I've thought about this for too long, here's another quibble: should this term include stuff like Gradius 4+5, where the ship orientation remains horizontal although the screen scrolls vertically in places? I don't think it should.

I agree here too, I never really considered including that in there from the beginning. If you're looking at the side of your ship, it's a side scroller, heh heh.

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Yeah, the way I try to split them up, there are manic bullet hell shmups, and there are shmups that are one or the other. I really don't know, needs more opinions. Maybe there's a consensus definition of danmaku in Japanese communities.

Then there's the matter of "Curtain Fire," a la Zun...is that yet another possible synonym, or not quite the same? Hopefully someone with Japanese knowledge can come to the rescue.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:02 am 


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fl0w wrote:
"Hybrid Attack”— 2-players-at-once special attack…too infrequently used?

--> I've never seen tat is a shmup?? Please give some examples!


Raiden and Raiden II both use a hybrid attack in 2-player mode. If one ship gets behind/underneath another & shoots them from behind, it sort-of deflects from the back of the ship on the receiving end & becomes a series of star-shaped projectiles fanning out in several directions. It can be effective during "popcorn spam" (possible new term?), but otherwise I'm not sure. I don't know of any other shmups that use this feature, but I think w/ the rampant popularity & recognition of Raiden (& the fact that many people who've never played it 2-player or haven't taken the time to watch the attract mode to see it in action) would warrant its inclusion in the list.

I just way to give a major KUDOS to BulletMagnet for the work on the glossary - it's a really good resource for giving us some continuity between the various terms we use. It's an excellent resource, for sure.
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FRO wrote:
It can be effective during "popcorn spam" (possible new term?)

Hmm, elaborate on it a bit, if you would...

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I just way to give a major KUDOS to BulletMagnet for the work on the glossary - it's a really good resource for giving us some continuity between the various terms we use. It's an excellent resource, for sure.

Glad you like it, but again, I'm just the guy who mooshes everything together. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:28 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Hmm...close, but not quite, I'd say...you're quite right, most enclosure attacks do take the "net" formation, but offhand I also recall a few which trap you inside a thin "corridor" of bullets and then send a few stray shots down the "corridor" which you have to barely tap by to get past...maybe the last attack Mushi's second stage boss throws at you would fit in there...


Hmmm... then again, they could be two parts to one category right? Since by your example, the net attack of DDP's first boss, fifth boss, and sixth boss is one, and Ikaruga's Grid attack during the fifth stage boss is one.

There's a lot to cover regarding the Net/Enclosure style attacks within modern examples.

BulletMagnet wrote:
The term is somewhat similarly used in tournament fighting games, where small amounts of damage done by special moves when blocking is sometimes called "chip damage."


Yeah, I'm aware of blocking damage in fighting games.
Funnily enough, in shmups I tend to use the term "tickle points" to refer to the points gained by using a weak attack on an enemy/boss. Don't add that to your glossary though, as it's a personal use term. ^_^;;

BulletMagnet wrote:
Sounds like you're kind of on the fence though, can you give a more appropriate example, to make sure I follow you?


The Garegga 'bomb milking' trick is exploiting something that will happen regardless of the player's actions - the attack is part of the boss' regular cycle - while the Psikyo trick is a 'forcing' action, by purposely powering down to force-spawn powerup carriers to milk (they don't usually appear if you are fully powered up). Kind of a bad example I guess.
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Icarus wrote:
There's a lot to cover regarding the Net/Enclosure style attacks within modern examples.

Yeah, hopefully I'll get some more input on that. Also, "Grid" sounds like a good possible alternate term for that, I'll hafta take note.

BulletMagnet wrote:
Funnily enough, in shmups I tend to use the term "tickle points" to refer to the points gained by using a weak attack on an enemy/boss. Don't add that to your glossary though, as it's a personal use term. ^_^;;

I think I actually might have already cross-referenced something like that under "Tickle," not sure though...

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The Garegga 'bomb milking' trick is exploiting something that will happen regardless of the player's actions - the attack is part of the boss' regular cycle - while the Psikyo trick is a 'forcing' action, by purposely powering down to force-spawn powerup carriers to milk (they don't usually appear if you are fully powered up).

Ah, okay, I follow you a bit better now. When you said "forcing" before I was thinking of something you'd noted about Blacky's mine attack, namely that dropping a bomb right on top of him forces him to pump the mines out at a much faster rate than normal, giving you more points. At any rate, I'll try to think of a way to note all this stuff under the existing definition.
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Okay, I've upgraded the glossary to Version 3.1, with some new terms and edits: check out that thread (link in first post) to see the new stuff, and let me know whether or not you agree with it.

Also, I edited the list of terms and such up for discussion, so have another look and contribute what you please! :D
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:29 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
FRO wrote:
It can be effective during "popcorn spam" (possible new term?)

Hmm, elaborate on it a bit, if you would...


"Popcorn spam" is something similar to "bullet spam" though identifying w/ the "popcorn" enemies (those that only take 1-2 shots, generally speaking). As such, "popcorn spam" would occur when there is an exessive amount of "popcorn" enemies on the screen at any given time. There are a couple instances of this in Raiden 2 (especially at higher difficulty levels), as well as in Shienryu/Gekioh, and Mars Matrix. That's how I would categorize it.

BulletMagnet wrote:
FRO wrote:
I just way to give a major KUDOS to BulletMagnet for the work on the glossary - it's a really good resource for giving us some continuity between the various terms we use. It's an excellent resource, for sure.

Glad you like it, but again, I'm just the guy who mooshes everything together. :)


Perhaps, but it's still an invaluable resource to this community! :D
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FRO wrote:
"Popcorn spam" is something similar to "bullet spam" though identifying w/ the "popcorn" enemies (those that only take 1-2 shots, generally speaking). As such, "popcorn spam" would occur when there is an exessive amount of "popcorn" enemies on the screen at any given time.

That would have been my guess as to what it means, but I figured I'd better hear it from the llama's mouth before making it official. ;) In any event, I hadn't heard the term before, but it makes sense...anyone else have any thoughts on it?

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Perhaps, but it's still an invaluable resource to this community! :D

Heh, dunno about that, but thanks. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:56 pm 



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other tern for "dead zone"
"point blank safe distance" (the distance at which it is safe for you to point blank an enemy without it returning fire.)

The "option" is definitely a gradius invention. "Multiple" is the other official term for it.

And gradius definitely invented the "Core" as well, with it's Big Core fighter.

The zone does exist, but can only be reached with certain games. Memorizers are notoriously difficult to enter the zone with, because to be in the zone you have to not think, and you have to think in the case of a memorizer. YOu can play many memorizers on autopilot, once you already know what to do, but this is NOT being in the zone, adn only takes you as far as what you know already. many manic shmups can corner you with aimed bullets, and thought is required to decide to bullet herd or use other required techniques to escape death when simple dodging won't work. Only when shooting and dodging is sufficient, like in many old school shooters, can the zone be reached. You can zoen on R-Type, but only in the final level!

And another term. "Cruise Shmup" This is a shmup that fails to rank up sufficiently to challenge a player at max power. It may take some time to tool up your ship, but once you are there, a lot of the game is a breeze if you don't die. Most cruise shmups DO let you recover after a death, but it is usually fairly challenging ot do so, but the more oppowerupis you manage to scrape up the easier it becomes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:42 am 


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By the way, you might want to note that the Japanese term for 'popcorn enemies' is Zako.

Gunpods also feature as secondary weapons, found in Einhander (and other games with limited ammo weaponry).

Kusoplays do show particularly impressive skill, but don't always result in an ALL Clear. Most kusoplays are often released as an integral release so people get an idea of what the game systems play like, without revealing too much of the end stages (good for those who don't like to be spoiled). Might want to make that distinction. ^_- (The definition itself is spot-on though.)

Did you find those files I sent you a while back of any use?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:33 am 


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zaphod wrote:
other tern for "dead zone"
"point blank safe distance" (the distance at which it is safe for you to point blank an enemy without it returning fire.)

Hmm...I already have a second definition for "point blank range" which refers to "dead zone"...maybe a quick notation of this term would be appropriate, though.

Quote:
The "option" is definitely a gradius invention....And gradius definitely invented the "Core" as well, with it's Big Core fighter.

I figured that was probably the case, but figured I'd best confirm it before adding that notation: I'll probably edit those two terms with this info next update. If anyone knows of any other common shmup terms which originated with a specific shmup, let me know!

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The zone does exist, but can only be reached with certain games....

Heh, that's pretty in-depth...I'll hafta reconsider adding that one.

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And another term. "Cruise Shmup" This is a shmup that fails to rank up sufficiently to challenge a player at max power.

Hmm, first time I can recall hearing that one, anyone else want to back this one up?

Icarus wrote:
By the way, you might want to note that the Japanese term for 'popcorn enemies' is Zako.

Yeah, I think that's one of the issues listed above...I took a quick look in a Japan/English dictionary, and the term literally means "small fry," as in fish, which I suppose makes sense. Someone on the previous thread mentioned that it might be a term that goes beyond shmupdom...any other comments on this one?

Quote:
Gunpods also feature as secondary weapons, found in Einhander (and other games with limited ammo weaponry).

Hmm, I know that's the term for Einhander, can anyone else back up the notion that it's more or less a universal term for limited-ammo weapons?

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Kusoplays do show particularly impressive skill, but don't always result in an ALL Clear. Most kusoplays are often released as an integral release so people get an idea of what the game systems play like, without revealing too much of the end stages (good for those who don't like to be spoiled).

Heh, guess I'll hafta edit that one...maybe you could link me to an example or two, so I get a better idea of what exactly the term entails.

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Did you find those files I sent you a while back of any use?

*smacks self* You know, I do have those someplace, but have neglected to look very closely at them...I'm gonna hafta dig 'em up...argh. :oops:
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:42 am 


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Perhaps you'd like to add the term "session" It's not shmup pacific term but it works. Basicly it refers to game session someone just had or is having or will have
For Example

I used two credit's on that shmup session
or
I didn't get my highscore on that session but the last one
or
I'm chosing the redship for this shmup session.
or
I hope to get my multiplyier up on this session

Also could be called a round or game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:11 am 


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Maybe I could reference those under "run."
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:29 am 


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A Session is usually a collection of runs. ^_-

As for kusoplays, I can reupload my Garegga [Bornnam, 9.84mil, stage6] replay if you want, or a more recent Ibara [Bond Type D, 8.9mil, stage5] one. Or the La Petite Princesse kuso I did for the impressions thread a while back. ^_- I usually class failed highscoring ALL attempts as kusoplays.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:58 am 


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Icarus wrote:
A Session is usually a collection of runs. ^_-

Gah, more complications. ;)

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I usually class failed highscoring ALL attempts as kusoplays.

Hmm...so basically anything "sub-superplay" is classified as a "kusoplay?"
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:03 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
Hmm...so basically anything "sub-superplay" is classified as a "kusoplay?"


Yup. Not-quite-superplays. ^_-

A long time ago, on this forum, a shmupper by the name of alamone first used the term in one of his replay distributions (it was a Border Down replay, where he made it to stage4 but ended the credit at the midboss, though might have been earlier when he was releasing Raiden Fighters captures). The term 'kuso' was in the filename, and I later learned what 'kuso' actually meant after I asked him. Since then, I've been using it as a term for not-quites. ^_-

I've seen it used on some Japanese replay sites as well, a while back.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:31 am 


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Okay, thanks for the info, I'll add that in the next update. :)
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