Will shmups die by 2007?

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:53 am

ok so we get 3 new shooters...for the DREAMCAST

other than Gradius ont he ps3..

What else can we expect?

Will porting/developing shmups die by 2007?

it has been a really dry spell..and some people are so desperate, they are ordering the LE edition of Last Hope

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:03 am

Dry spell?

From incognoscente's post, games released last year:

Hudson Best Collection Vol.5: Shooting Collection (GBA JPN) - January 19, 2006
Danshaku / Nanostray (GBA JPN) - January 26, 2006
Namco Museum Arcade Hits! (PS2 JPN) - January 26, 2006
Namco Museum [Value Selection] (GBA JPN) - February 2, 2006
Gigawing Generations (PS2 EU) - February 3, 2006
Sega Classics Collection (PS2 EU) - February 3, 2006
Gradius Portable (PSP JPN) - February 9, 2006
Nanostray (GBA EU) - February 10, 2006
Radirgy / Rajirugi (DC JPN) - February 16, 2006
Giga Wing Generations [Taito Best] (PS2 JPN) - February 23, 2006
Ibara (PS2 JPN) - February 23, 2006
Namco Museum Vol. 2 (PSP JPN) - February 23, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection (PS2 JPN) - March 2, 2006
Raiden III (PC JPN) - March 13, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection Remixed (PSP US) - March 22, 2006
Oretachi Geasen Zoku: Rabio Lepus (PS2 JPN) - March 23, 2006
Under Defeat (DC JPN) - March 23, 2006
Namco Museum 50th Anniversary Arcade Collection (GBA EU) - March 31, 2006
Namco Museum 50th Anniversary Arcade Collection (PS2 EU) - March 31, 2006
Namco Museum 50th Anniversary Arcade Collection (Xbox EU) - March 31, 2006
Taito Legends 2 (PC EU) - March 31, 2006
Taito Legends 2 (PS2 EU) - March 31, 2006
Taito Legends 2 (Xbox EU) - March 31, 2006
Shooting Love: Trizeal (PS2 JPN) - April 20, 2006
Radirgy Generic / Rajirugi Generic (GC JPN) - May 25, 2006
Radirgy Precious Rajirugi Generic (PS2 JPN) - May 25, 2006
Namco Museum 50th Anniversary Arcade Collection (GC EU) - June 2, 2006
Gradius Collection (PSP US) - June 6, 2006
Namco Museum [PSP the Best] (PSP JPN) - June 9, 2006
Homura (PS2 EU) - June 23, 2006
Taito Legends [Xplosive] (PC EU) - June 23, 2006
Dragon Blaze (PS2 EU) - June 30, 2006
R-Type Final [Best] (PS2 JPN) - July 6, 2006
Taito Memories 1 Vol.1 / Taito Memories Joukan [Taito Best] (PS2 JPN) - July 6, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection Remixed (PSP EU) - July 21, 2006
Mushihime-sama [Taito Best] (PS2 JPN) - August 3, 2006
Xyanide (Xbox US) - August 15, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection (PSP JPN) - September 7, 2006
Taito Memories 1 Vol.2 / Taito Memories Gekan [Taito Best] (PS2 JPN) - September 7, 2006
Shikigami no Shiro III (PC JPN) - September 29, 2006
Raiden III (PS2 EU) - October 5, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection Reloaded (PSP US) - October 24, 2006
Platypus (PSP US) - November 17, 2006
Twinkle Star Sprites: La Petite Princesse [SNK Best] (PS2 JPN) - November 22, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 2 (PS2 US) - November 24, 2006
Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 2 (Xbox US) - November 24, 2006
Homura [Taito Best] (PS2 JPN) - November 30, 2006

Upcoming

Gradius Portable [Best] (PSP JPN) - January 25, 2007
Parodius Portable (PSP JPN) - January 25, 2007
Salamander Portable (PSP JPN) - January 25, 2007
Taito Memories 2 vol. 1 (PS2 JPN) - January 25, 2007
Twinbee Portable (PSP JPN) - January 25, 2007
Oretachi Geasen Zoku: Thundercross (PS2 JPN) - February 8, 2007
Radio Allergy [aka Radirgy / Rajirugi] (GC US) - February 17, 2007 ?
Star Soldier [Hudson the Best] (PSP JPN) - February 22, 2007
Trigger Heart Excelica (DC JPN) - Febuary 22, 2007
Capcom Classics Collection vol. 2 (PS2 EU) - February 23, 2007 ?
Konami Arcade Collection (DS JPN) - March 15, 2007
Taito Memories 2 vol. 2 (PS2 JPN) - March 29, 2007

And that's just the first three months. I think we should be ok.

btw, those are just console releases. Last year saw 3 Cave games in arcades and there's bound to be a couple more in 2007. Raiden IV will be out before too long as well.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:08 am

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP wrote:people are so desperate, they are ordering the LE edition of Last Hope

Man, you caught me off guard with that one.

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:35 pm

NTSC-J wrote: Raiden IV will be out before too long as well.

I'm definetly peeing a little for that.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:45 pm

There are also some titles without solid release dates that are in production, like Nanostray 2 and Treasure's new shooter for the 360. If/when shooters die, it's not going to be in '07. I'm pretty confident shooters will eventually die off, if only because there will be so little interest in them (we're already a niche as is, it can only get worse), and as time goes on, it'll become harder and harder to keep making new and interesting games that'll keep shmupers excited.

Now, don't flame me too hard. I know most of us will ALWAYS be die-hard shmupers, and we'll be playing the shooters we still own now years and years from now, but... Will they be able to keep us spending money on the genre? I hope so ^_^ But I'm skeptical. Though, I honestly think the death of the genre is far enough down the road that it's not even worth worrying about. We can burn that bridge when we get there.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:20 pm

Shmups really died in 1999, as Nostradamus predicted. Then they were resurrected. Inside a solar eclipse, that is.

Honest truth!

JBC · Post by **JBC** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:10 pm

But the resurrection isn't until the 2030's. Until then Nostradamus predicted that all shmups will be sequels to Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy with a thumpin' soundtrack by 2 Unlimited.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:27 pm

Predictions of the genre's final death seem to pop up all the time. They never pan out.

al138 · Post by **al138** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:32 pm

Arvandor wrote:Will they be able to keep us spending money on the genre? I hope so ^_^ But I'm skeptical. Though, I honestly think the death of the genre is far enough down the road that it's not even worth worrying about. We can burn that bridge when we get there.

While I can see an eventual end to new shooters distributed via traditional means (i.e. on physical media and available for purchase at a store), I think the genre has two things going for it:

1. The games are relatively cheap to design and produce.
2. The games are small in terms of data storage requirements.

Both of these factors make the shooting genre an excellent candidate for future life on console online services like XBox Live and Virtual Console. As broadband speed rates continue to improve, I think we will begin to see reasonable download times for games approaching 1 GB (especially on the XBox and PS3)--which opens up a world of possibilities for shooter titles from the past, present, and in the future.

These online console services can offer a more cost-effective distribution option, which in turn keeps the prices low enough to attract the casual gamers necessary to keep the shooting genre alive into the next console generation. Casual gamers may be unwilling to spend $70 to import a copy of ESPgalulda, but slap a $10-$15 price tag on a downloadable version and I imagine you would garner greater interest.

I'm optimistic!

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:44 pm

...and as usual, theres the "forgotten" doujin branch, that happen to release at leats 15-20 shmups per year, some of them with pretty good quality, and a huge demand (from us, doujin STG players)... so, yeah, i dont think shmups will die anytime soon.

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:59 pm

Kaspal wrote:...and as usual, theres the "forgotten" doujin branch, that happen to release at leats 15-20 shmups per year, some of them with pretty good quality, and a huge demand (from us, doujin STG players)... so, yeah, i dont think shmups will die anytime soon.

I won't stop as long as I have Diet Coke and Good & Plenty candy. Don't rule out independant developers.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:53 pm

al138 wrote:
Arvandor wrote:Will they be able to keep us spending money on the genre? I hope so ^_^ But I'm skeptical. Though, I honestly think the death of the genre is far enough down the road that it's not even worth worrying about. We can burn that bridge when we get there.
While I can see an eventual end to new shooters distributed via traditional means (i.e. on physical media and available for purchase at a store), I think the genre has two things going for it:

1. The games are relatively cheap to design and produce.
2. The games are small in terms of data storage requirements.

Both of these factors make the shooting genre an excellent candidate for future life on console online services like XBox Live and Virtual Console. As broadband speed rates continue to improve, I think we will begin to see reasonable download times for games approaching 1 GB (especially on the XBox and PS3)--which opens up a world of possibilities for shooter titles from the past, present, and in the future.

These online console services can offer a more cost-effective distribution option, which in turn keeps the prices low enough to attract the casual gamers necessary to keep the shooting genre alive into the next console generation. Casual gamers may be unwilling to spend $70 to import a copy of ESPgalulda, but slap a $10-$15 price tag on a downloadable version and I imagine you would garner greater interest.

I'm optimistic!

I'm pessimistic.

There's no way, IMO, that we're going to see Cave games for download on XBLA, which has mostly become a dumping ground for developers and publishers to make a fast buck on games that are readily playable on other consoles.

And as far as the list of what's coming out this year, how many of those games are actually new, and not just "Best editions" or compilations? Comps. are great, don't get me wrong, but I think that the actual number of new shmups we'll see this year will be pretty low. Whether or not SCEA has or has not ditched it's anti-2D policy regarding the PS2, Raiden III is sitting in limbo, and there are no domestic PS2 shmup releases on schedule for this year. Pretty pathetic when one considers the shmups that were released near, and at the end of, the PS1's life.

Yes, predictions in the past about the genre dying have proven false, but in this country, at least, the future of gaming is HD, so unless we get some new shmup developers who are dedicated to making HD shmups, the genre will be in serious trouble this generation.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:04 pm

dave4shmups wrote: I'm pessimistic.

There's no way, IMO, that we're going to see Cave games for download on XBLA, which has mostly become a dumping ground for developers and publishers to make a fast buck on games that are readily playable on other consoles.

And as far as the list of what's coming out this year, how many of those games are actually new, and not just "Best editions" or compilations? Comps. are great, don't get me wrong, but I think that the actual number of new shmups we'll see this year will be pretty low. Whether or not SCEA has or has not ditched it's anti-2D policy regarding the PS2, Raiden III is sitting in limbo, and there are no domestic PS2 shmup releases on schedule for this year. Pretty pathetic when one considers the shmups that were released near, and at the end of, the PS1's life.

Yes, predictions in the past about the genre dying have proven false, but in this country, at least, the future of gaming is HD, so unless we get some new shmup developers who are dedicated to making HD shmups, the genre will be in serious trouble this generation.

Maybe a little too pessimistic.

Cave has their games ported onto mobile phones, so I think XBLA or something could happen. BTW, they'll eventually have to bring out arcade hardware that supports HD resolution.

Let's hope they don't do any Japan Only restrictions on their XBLA titles if they go that route. They may not be charging $50-60 for a title on XBLA, but I can see one going for $20-30. ESPGaluda 2 most likely is greater than the 50 MB limit set on XBLA games though- maybe that one would be overly optimistic. Already, Guwange is over 40 MB. We'd probably see lower megabyte games (Dodonpachi and Progear are less than 30 MB) getting on XBLA, but that'd be good for a start.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:10 pm

Shmups won't die as long as there are still people playing them. That's all that really matters. There are plenty of people playing the previously released stuff still, and I'm sure they aren't just going to suddenly stop anytime soon.

Arznei · Post by **Arznei** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:32 pm

NTSC-J wrote:words

Why do Best titles count? They're the same game but released again.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:04 pm

It may be harder to get certain titles greenlighted/ported (like Ketsui supposedly), but the genre is as alive as ever. I remember over 5 years ago people on the old forum predicting that shmups would die out right before the PS2 launch and that Zero Gunner 2 would be the LAST major DC shmup/non-shmup relase.

I'm also impressed at how much better/varied the compilations are getting (emulation issue aside). Sure, most of them are on PSP but I'd never think we'd get 4 shmup comps from Konami in the space of one year not to mention finally getting home ports of CPS1 shooters such as Varth on CC.

Anyways, points at Kaneda's list.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:06 pm

Dylan1CC wrote:It may be harder to get certain titles greenlighted/ported (like Ketsui supposedly), but the genre is as alive as ever. I remember over 5 years ago people on the old forum predicting that shmups would die out right before the PS2 launch and that Zero Wing would be the LAST major DC shmup/non-shmup relase.

I'm also impressed at how much better/varied the compilations are getting (emulation issue aside). Sure, most of them are on PSP but I'd never think we'd get 4 shmup comps from Konami in the space of one year not to mention finally getting home ports of CPS1 shooters such as Varth on CC.

Anyways, points at Kaneda's list.

Good points, I suppose I was a little too pessimistic; it's just that with 2 out of the 3 consoles out now being HD consoles, that ups the bar for developers, because HD-quality games are what people want to play.

But, yeah, the comps. have been nice; I have Capcom Classics 2 on XBOX, and it's fantastic!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:13 pm

At least there's Trigger Heart coming up. One game at a time.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:28 pm

Rob wrote:At least there's Trigger Heart coming up. One game at a time.

Meanwhile, I notice that no score for Strikers 1945 II has been submitted in nearly 1 year. Do we really need a bunch of new shmups when so few of us have mastered the already existing masterpieces of the genre?

stratos · Post by **stratos** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:52 am

professor ganson wrote:
Rob wrote:At least there's Trigger Heart coming up. One game at a time.
Meanwhile, I notice that no score for Strikers 1945 II has been submitted in nearly 1 year. Do we really need a bunch of new shmups when so few of us have mastered the already existing masterpieces of the genre?

That's the point: even if the genere woul'd die this year, we shouldn't worrie: shmup history is really plenty of really lenghty mesterpieces that we didn't play that we have stuff to play 'till we die...

However, remaining on topic, we shoul'd consider another thing: speaking about Cave, we saw they hired Shinobu Yagawa; now, it wuol'd not be realistic if they hired him only because Ikeda was e Garegga fan... indeed, after Ibara, this year Cave produced two new Cave classic shooters (ESPG II and Mushi II) and a brand new Yagawa game, pink sweets... so I think they are planning to make Yagawa work for other two or three games at least, and it is also a good point to think they are trying to produce something new. It's not realistic to think they hired Yagawa san to produce only two games, and I don't think they will put him to program little stupid cell games...

So, hopefully, Cave fanboys are insured

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:13 am

dave4shmups wrote:Good points, I suppose I was a little too pessimistic....

No kidding. Lighten up, Dave!

And to think I always viewed you as a shmup optimist. For shame, for shame.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:17 am

Strikers '45 II was more popular on the score section on the last board. The bar is really high on that now, with multiple loop/ALL games, which probably shuts down some interest in score submitting. I know I've played it a little recently, but I'll never try to make much progress in the loop.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:21 am

Arznei wrote:Why do Best titles count? They're the same game but released again.

Because if shooters didn't sell at all we wouldn't see rereleases or compilations. At the moment, a dozen shooter products are to come out within the first three months of the year, so obviously someone is buying this shit.

Personally, I could care less if shooters suddenly stopped being made entirely. There are so many I've not put enough time into that I don't want anymore.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:34 am

NTSC-J wrote:Personally, I could care less if shooters suddenly stopped being made entirely. There are so many I've not put enough time into that I don't want anymore.

Best point so far (others have said the same thing, koodos to you too). I have enough shooters right this moment to last me the rest of my life, and I would never get bored of many (if any) of them, and would master very few. Plus I still want to get a half dozen or so for the Saturn, 2-3 for the Dreamcast, 4 or so for the PS2... If shmups suddenly stopped appearing, I would be sad merely because I'm a fan of the genre, but it wouldn't bother me overly much in the end. If anything, it'd be a good thing, give me a chance to fully experience all the shooters I have and don't have time for (which is scary, because I have a lot more gaming time than most).

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:40 am

Namco, Capcom, Sega, etc. don't make shooters (obviously), they'll just package a few to cover more bases in nostalgia collections.

I could go for new shooters all year long. New is exciting. I can't play Giga Wing every week.

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:04 am

Before I clicked on this thread, I wasn't scared.

Then I was. (I thought that this genre would be around forever!)

Now I'm not. (It surely will.)

I agree that as long as there are people that enjoy these games, they'll always be released, except perhaps with greater time in between releases. I know that this isn't exactly what people want to hear (sort of like another topic going on right now), but to that, I'll say that I'd hope that Cave and other mainstays of the genre will continue to produce titles with at least some certainty.

professor ganson wrote:
Rob wrote:At least there's Trigger Heart coming up. One game at a time.
Meanwhile, I notice that no score for Strikers 1945 II has been submitted in nearly 1 year. Do we really need a bunch of new shmups when so few of us have mastered the already existing masterpieces of the genre?

I absolutely agree. I haven't even achieved a 1CC yet, and I have a handful of excellent games that I play regularly, but I'm still looking forward to Exelica and Karous. Part of it is a desire for added variety to the rotation, but how many new ones will I need?

Still, for it to be a genre, we'll need some new titles every now and then, and I'm still plugging away at GigaWing even though I'm working out some preorders. If we get a new quality title every year or so, I'd be fairly pleased.

I think that the games will be able to roll with the times. In fact, I'm so convinced that I'm excited... It might sound like an idyllic fantasy, but I'm imagining a bitmap-based STG on X360-based hardware, natively and without emulation or interpolated scaling. Maybe the background graphics will be .5x or .25x the actual video resolution, but you get what I'm thinking.

(I wrote this before Rob replied about not being able to play GW every week, I swear. Plus, I agree.)

tekneekz · Post by **tekneekz** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:10 am

well at least we got red star to look forward to in a couple of weeks for 19 bucks

. i know i know its a run n gunner

cdawg4949 · Post by **cdawg4949** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:40 am

I feel that if the development teams want to make shmups last, they have to make the games more accessable to the common consumer. To me this means...

1) Games need to feel more original off the bat. Gradius V and the likes are released in the US because they feel new, solid and have an easily identifiable story line that leads them through the levels.

2) The games need to feel less simple or small. I think Ikaruga did a great job of this. When average gamers play a cave game, they see it as either way to hard...or way to easy (to coin feed). Smashing buttons and hoping for the best. Only people who really get into scoring or self accomplishment will appreciate these games. Defeating a more epic game without the aide of freely available credits, and more of a personality will help them.

3) Good graphics. While I love hand drawn sprites, the average user wants 3D. The games still play 2D, but with quality graphics that match other modern games, people will love to give it a shot.

4) Price. Outside shmup circles, no body feels the need to pay $60 for a game that can be credit fed to a win in 3 to 5 hours of play. In America, games like Gradius V go for $30 - $40 because we like to pay 2.99 for Denny's Grand Slam breakfast. (yes, many of my fellow Americans are gluttons) Its all about how much you can get for how little. Final fantasy will get you 40 -80 hours of game play, but unless you are going for a 1cc or a wicked score, shmups seem miniscule in comparisson.

5) Extras - Even stupid things like galleries, unlockables, mini-games. R-Type final...while not a great game had these in spades. I played 10-15 hours more than I would have simply because I wanted to unlock stuff. And every new ship...(as indifferent as most of them were) felt like a victory.

Just my 2 cents.

Disclaimer - I love Cave games and bullet hell and sprites and hate unecassary 3D. Don't get me wrong and give me crap.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:05 am

There was some discussion before about making shooters more accessible to the general gaming public, but I can't quite remember what the majority opinion was...

Either, yes it's good to do various things to make it appeal to average Joe, or
No, it's better to keep our shooters as they are for the existing fans of the genre..

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:18 am

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=9863 ?

Will shmups die by 2007?

Will shmups die by 2007?

Re: Will shmups die by 2007?