getting the best picture out of my playstation 1

[creamygarlicdip]

Hi Guys,

So I've been trying to get the best picture quality for playstation 1 games. i bought final fantasy 9 from psn store and played it on my ps3. it looked lousy on my 46" 1080p LED via hdmi. I experimented with different resolutions and was unsatisfied- the aspect ratio is stretched too high and it looks jaggy. I tried it connected to my 1080i crt tv, which looked better, in 1080i hdmi output mode it gave the correct aspect ratio it looked like. But still it didn't quite seem right.

So i bought an s-video cable for my modded playstation 1 and tried a copy of the game on that, it looked much better. I connected it to the sony widescreen crt 1080i.

That said im thinking the best way to get maximum image quality from playstation 1 games is to play them on a playstation 2 outputting in progressive scan via component cables. I don't have a playstation 2 but was thinking of getting one to do this. I've read that outputting the playstation 1 games like this is the best way to go as you can output the true 240p. On the other hand, I see there are scart cables for ps1 but i live in ontario, canada. I don't see monitors that accept rgb scart for sale around here.

what do you guys think?

[antron]

Using a PS2 just gets you component output. Being 240p or 480i is up to the game, regardless of which console you use.

[nyder]

Hi Guys,

So I've been trying to get the best picture quality for playstation 1 games. i bought final fantasy 9 from psn store and played it on my ps3. it looked lousy on my 46" 1080p LED via hdmi. I experimented with different resolutions and was unsatisfied- the aspect ratio is stretched too high and it looks jaggy. I tried it connected to my 1080i crt tv, which looked better, in 1080i hdmi output mode it gave the correct aspect ratio it looked like. But still it didn't quite seem right.

So i bought an s-video cable for my modded playstation 1 and tried a copy of the game on that, it looked much better. I connected it to the sony widescreen crt 1080i.

That said im thinking the best way to get maximum image quality from playstation 1 games is to play them on a playstation 2 outputting in progressive scan via component cables. I don't have a playstation 2 but was thinking of getting one to do this. I've read that outputting the playstation 1 games like this is the best way to go as you can output the true 240p. On the other hand, I see there are scart cables for ps1 but i live in ontario, canada. I don't see monitors that accept rgb scart for sale around here.

what do you guys think?

Very few PS2 games support 480P/Progressive scan and no ps1 games do. However, the component cables hooked up to a PS2 will be a step up from your S-video cable, though some PS1 games do not support it. You could plug in your S-video cables for those.

Considering the massive game library and the easy and cheap availability of PS2's I can't see any reason not to obtain one and a component cable. I think the amount of ps1 titles that don't work on the ps2 is minuscule, and for those you still have your ps1.

Nyd

[Xan]

XRGB-mini with RGB...?

[austin532]

Hi Guys,

So I've been trying to get the best picture quality for playstation 1 games. i bought final fantasy 9 from psn store and played it on my ps3. it looked lousy on my 46" 1080p LED via hdmi. I experimented with different resolutions and was unsatisfied- the aspect ratio is stretched too high and it looks jaggy. I tried it connected to my 1080i crt tv, which looked better, in 1080i hdmi output mode it gave the correct aspect ratio it looked like. But still it didn't quite seem right.

So i bought an s-video cable for my modded playstation 1 and tried a copy of the game on that, it looked much better. I connected it to the sony widescreen crt 1080i.

That said im thinking the best way to get maximum image quality from playstation 1 games is to play them on a playstation 2 outputting in progressive scan via component cables. I don't have a playstation 2 but was thinking of getting one to do this. I've read that outputting the playstation 1 games like this is the best way to go as you can output the true 240p. On the other hand, I see there are scart cables for ps1 but i live in ontario, canada. I don't see monitors that accept rgb scart for sale around here.

what do you guys think?

Don't bother with the PSN Classics as you are very limited with video options plus there is some lag with those as well.

S-Video is fine but it's only slightly better than Composite. I've never had a 1080i 16:9 CRT but I would imagine PS1 games would still look better on a standard 4:3 CRT.

It's debatable on whether or not PS1 games look better while using a PS2. IMO they do look slightly better if only just a tad. You definitely want to use Component cables with the PS2 which gives you a much better picture(but still not the best). Almost all PS1 games are 240p during gameplay and some output 480i for menu screens. There are a select few though that actually output 480i during gameplay. None of them are capable of 480p.

As far as getting the best picture from PS1 games using a PS2 there are several options. If you plan on playing them on a CRT I believe you can:

Use a Scart RGB cable and connect it to something that accepts it like a PVM monitor
Use a Scart RGB to Component transcoder which might give you slightly better results (not 100% sure on this)

As for HDTV's or Flat Screen monitors I highly recommend investing in a nice upscaler such as the XRGB-Mini Frameister using a Scart RGB cable. http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html

I'm sure there are other options out there but these are the ones that seem most common.

[antron]

Use a Scart RGB to Component transcoder which might give you slightly better results (not 100% sure on this)

I do this with a PS1 to connect to a Sony WEGA 3:4 CRT and a 240p capable LCD. Both look great, far better than composite.

[waiwainl]

Scart RGB is the way to go.

[austin532]

Use a Scart RGB to Component transcoder which might give you slightly better results (not 100% sure on this)

I do this with a PS1 to connect to a Sony WEGA 3:4 CRT and a 240p capable LCD. Both look great, far better than composite.

Ah, so it is possible. How much better is the picture compared to just using component?

[antron]

^ do you mean composite?

I was only referring to to PS1 output, whose best output is limited to RGB.

[austin532]

No, I meant Scart RGB > Transcoder > Component vs. just using Component.

[nyder]

No, I meant Scart RGB > Transcoder > Component vs. just using Component.

He should just use component via a PS2, cheap, easy and will support what few 480P games that exist.

Would cost more to get a transcoder and a RGB scart then pick up a ps2 at a thrift store.

Nyd

[creamygarlicdip]

thx guys, yah I figure I'll just get a playstation 2 and use component cables I already have for that. An xrgb or transcoder would be nice but I don't want to spend that much dough at this point. But s-video is definitely an improvement on the ps1 over composite. composite looks awful. The sony crt has drc mode options for interlaced/progressive/cinemotion when i plug in the s-video. It looks good with the interlaced mode. Definitely much better than the ps3 outputting the psn downloaded copy, it looks rough no matter what.

[Grimakis]

I saw this topic, and have a similar question.

So I know the deal with PS2 Component vs SCART RGB, but can anyone post some screenshots of a PS1 game running YPbPr over Component vs RGB over SCART.

I plan on feeding into the Framemeister either way. Maybe a close up of some text, or Alucard's sprite in SOTN. IDK, anything that will give me a good comparison for a 240p PS1 game. I know Component is the way to go for games that support 240p resolution, and I would hate to give that up if the difference between RGB and Component is only slight. However if RGBs is that much better, I might go that direction.

Regards,
George

[Mishrak109]

I've been running a component PS2 to play some PS1 games on my PVM and I can tell you that they're gorgeous. I don't have any pictures handy as of this post, but when I get a chance I'll upload a few for you if no one beats me to it.

[broken harbour]

I find alot of games of that generation, especially ambitious-for-the-time 3D games like FF7, Toshinden, etc...

However, scanlines tend to clean them up and give the illusion of them being sharper, so maybe look into an SLG or something?

[Josh128]

I saw this topic, and have a similar question.

So I know the deal with PS2 Component vs SCART RGB, but can anyone post some screenshots of a PS1 game running YPbPr over Component vs RGB over SCART.

I plan on feeding into the Framemeister either way. Maybe a close up of some text, or Alucard's sprite in SOTN. IDK, anything that will give me a good comparison for a 240p PS1 game. I know Component is the way to go for games that support 240p resolution, and I would hate to give that up if the difference between RGB and Component is only slight. However if RGBs is that much better, I might go that direction.

Regards,
George

I dont have pics of the PS1 over SCART, but I have them of SOTN via a PS2 Silver Slim using component on my plasma. It doesnt matter though, barring some compatibility issues you may have with the Framemeister (I dont know, I dont use one), PS2 component should be just as good (better IMO cause you can easily use 480p on supported games) as PS1 RGBs.

Heres a couple pictures of SOTN on my plasma via PS2 component. Note I was using a pretty high sharpness in these shots, hence the ringing.

Full 3MP photos below:
http://i.imgur.com/hRw0z4c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wRmKegS.jpg

[Mishrak109]

Those SoTN ones are perfect.

Here's one I have of Legend of Mana on my PVM. Pardon the iphone camera glare.

http://i.imgur.com/h17zpdj.jpg

[Jack Burton]

I don't know about anybody else, but I like playing ps1 games on my ps2 so I can turn on the smoothing function. It's not like the smoothing setting on a ps3 for playing older games. This just makes 3d textures a little smoother. 2d graphics are not altered.

[Grimakis]

I saw this topic, and have a similar question.

So I know the deal with PS2 Component vs SCART RGB, but can anyone post some screenshots of a PS1 game running YPbPr over Component vs RGB over SCART.

I plan on feeding into the Framemeister either way. Maybe a close up of some text, or Alucard's sprite in SOTN. IDK, anything that will give me a good comparison for a 240p PS1 game. I know Component is the way to go for games that support 240p resolution, and I would hate to give that up if the difference between RGB and Component is only slight. However if RGBs is that much better, I might go that direction.

Regards,
George

I dont have pics of the PS1 over SCART, but I have them of SOTN via a PS2 Silver Slim using component on my plasma. It doesnt matter though, barring some compatibility issues you may have with the Framemeister (I dont know, I dont use one), PS2 component should be just as good (better IMO cause you can easily use 480p on supported games) as PS1 RGBs.

Heres a couple pictures of SOTN on my plasma via PS2 component. Note I was using a pretty high sharpness in these shots, hence the ringing.

That does look good. I imagine upscaled with the Framemeister it might be a little different.

I might get both cables and compare. Component looks like it could be a good bet, so I'm probably going to give that a try first. If it isn't clean enough I can always get a SCART cable later, they actually aren't too expensive.

Comparison shots between RGBs and YPbPr are still appreciated for anyone that has them. There is an overall lack of side-by-side comparisons online, and I think it's something worth looking at.

[Josh128]

Just note that subtle softness of the pixel edges in the images I posted is due to the F4500s native 240p scaling algorithm. On other HDTVs you may see sharper pixels and harsher edges in 240p content-- please note that it is not a difference between component or RGBs, but scaling algorithms of the TVs.

As I said before-- I really dont think you will see a difference between PS1 RGBs and PS2 Component going straight into the TV or monitor. I have heard that the Framemeister sometimes has issues with the component input though-- so perhaps someone like Fudoh can answer that for you.

I will say that Genesis games emulated on Wii at 240p over component look for all intents and purposes identical to my real Genesis 1 and 2 consoles using RGBs transcoded to component in my experience.

[HydrogLox]

So I know the deal with PS2 Component vs SCART RGB, .... I plan on feeding into the Framemeister either way.

The deal being:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

• For 240p signals - 1st Place: XRGB-Mini
• For 480i signals - 1st Place: XRGB-Mini
• For 480p signals - 4th Place: XRGB-Mini

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 92#p869192

HOWEVER, if you want perfect picture quality please ditch the Component stuff. I tried it myself with a setup just like yours - the Mini's Component input is just horrible, especially if the Component signal comes from a PS2.
Go for RGB.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 11#p869611

The Framemeister is THE solution for 240p and 480i modes; it does better there than any modern TV. When it comes to 480p your TV will probably do as good or - factoring in the Framemeister's subpar component input - even better than the Framemeister.

Tomago posted links to some PS2 (component<->RGB) comparison pictures in posts following http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 10#p870010 - but in particular:

The PS2's option menu where you switch between Component and RGB output is a good example.

I managed to take some pictures: http://imgur.com/ZcpC2D9,8k4PYFt#0

RGB --> perfectly smooth color gradient
Component --> do you see the "blobs" to the far left and the far right? Color banding. It get's pretty noticable if you look at it for some time.
Actually gray color gradient in the PS2's memory card menu is the better example, however it shows slight banding even in RGB mode (no wonder - 32 bit color has its limits as long as no dithering is applied).

To summarize:

• 480p processing isn't the XRGB-Mini's strength - it's King for 240p/480i material.
• The XRGB-Mini excels at RGB processing. The YCbCr -> RGB and RGB -> YCbCr transcoding may not be 100%.
• The PS2 component output is known to be noisier than it's RGB output.

So when using the XRGB-Mini with a PS2 it is probably best to stick to 240p/480i through RGB (SCART).

It is possible to get 480p via RGsB on the PS2 but a Sync Strike and Extron RGB interface are needed to convert to 480p RGBS for the XRGB-Mini - given that 480p isn't the top of the XRGB-Mini's game anyway it's likely not worth the hassle.

[Josh128]

Duly noted when using a Xrgb mini-- but what about straight into the monitor or TV? Does the color banding/etc show like that? I guess that is the question of the hour.

Ive not seen any problems with my PS2 component output, it looks pristine and beautiful to me, but then again Ive not been looking for this type of banding in gray shading either.

[GohanX]

If you don't want to spend big bucks, getting that ps2 component cable and running it on the crt is probably going to give you your best result. If you have room for another set, grab a SD Wega set off Craigslist, people around here give them away, and the image quality is bonkers. Short of an expensive scaler, ps1 isn't going to look great on a hdtv, you're just going to get varying levels of "okay."

[HydrogLox]

In the case of the PS2 + XRGB-Mini there is the possibility of their weaknesses compounding - and even then some people aren't too bothered by the result. Many TVs only have a component input and no RGB input - so there is no choice and no possibility to compare, so component is the best option over S-Video or composite. Furthermore certain display technologies may be better at obscuring any noise that may be in the PS2 component signal - given that the PS2 is a CRT-era console it may be difficult to see any noise on even a good CRT.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasm ... st12719233

One thing, coming from LCD to plasma I can say this, with low quality sources:

LCD=Blurry/Blocky pixelated
Plasma=Softer/Smoother (more pleasing)

(with HQ sources, at 1080P, the 60 inch is very smooth but can go almost as sharp as the LCD)

Given such a statement it isn't too far a reach to imagine that the "component noise" gets lost on a Plasma display while it is accentuated on an LCD panel. In the end the effect is highly personal - playing a game you may be too distracted to notice any problems anyway.

Edit: Not sure if PS2(SCART)->CSY2100->(component)TV would be an improvement over PS2(component)->(component)TV for 240p/480i.

[Grimakis]

These are all good points. I think the real question is, what is the ultimate combination of image quality and convenience.

My TV processed 480i and 240p horrendously. It works with 480p pretty well. The XRGB mini does 480p OK, but not amazing.

I don't have room for a Sony WEGA and if I did I would opt for a PVM or BVM instead.

I notice something like a chroma shift on Component Framemeister with the color bars pattern. Its noticeable in with test patterns, but otherwise OK.

Really, there is a point of diminishing returns with this. I'm probably going to get both cables and see what works best for me. i'm guessing RGB might be the way to go, but I'm interested to see how Component stacks up.

Even with the problems the Framemeister has, its a vast improvement for 240p and 480i scaling, and at least on par with 480p.

It also gives me the benefit of being able to have dedicated Component and AV inputs.

Instead of having to deal with shared Component/Composite port on the TV, I can now hook up RGB, Composite, S-Video, Component, etc without unplugging 5 cables at a time.

Regards,
George

[austin532]

I don't know about anybody else, but I like playing ps1 games on my ps2 so I can turn on the smoothing function. It's not like the smoothing setting on a ps3 for playing older games. This just makes 3d textures a little smoother. 2d graphics are not altered.

The problem with smoothing on the PS2 is that it shows the outlines on 2D sprites. Very annoying while playing PS1 games.

[FBX]

I know there are some PS1 games that have trouble on the PS2, but thus far, I've been absolutely thrilled with the picture quality of PS1 games on the PS2 via component output. Using the Framemeister and my settings on my Pixel Purist page, you can get the pixels looking razor-sharp.

http://www.firebrandx.com/ps2framemeister.html

[BONKERS]

If you have a PSP GO, you can play PS1 games in their original resolution over component video on a CRT when the output is set to 4:3 interlaced mode. (This will switch the system to 240p mode when playing PS1 games)
While also using a dualshock 3 as a controller

I think this is a great way of being able to play some rarer or more expensive games as if on the actual hardware and being able to buy/support the rightsholders. (And maintaining compatibility to play on PSV/PS3 too)


PS1 upscaling with the smoothing off on the PS3 isn't bad at all either IMO. It's a pretty faithful and good looking representation of what it actually looked like from the hardware outputted.

The bigger issue with the PS3 is the slight input latency added on top in addition to your TV's latency.

[BazookaBen]

I noticed about 3 frames of lag playing Mega Man X4 on my PSP too.

[Josh128]

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasm ... st12719233

One thing, coming from LCD to plasma I can say this, with low quality sources:

LCD=Blurry/Blocky pixelated
Plasma=Softer/Smoother (more pleasing)

(with HQ sources, at 1080P, the 60 inch is very smooth but can go almost as sharp as the LCD)

Given such a statement it isn't too far a reach to imagine that the "component noise" gets lost on a Plasma display while it is accentuated on an LCD panel. In the end the effect is highly personal - playing a game you may be too distracted to notice any problems anyway.

Edit: Not sure if PS2(SCART)->CSY2100->(component)TV would be an improvement over PS2(component)->(component)TV for 240p/480i.

To say that a plasmas image is inherently softer than LCD is simply not true, but its apparently a widespread myth. The only reason 240p has a soft look my F4500s (and my 1080p F5300) is because of Samsungs proprietary native 240p scaling algorithm. The 720p Panasonic Viera P50X60 plasma (that I sold to get another F4500) had much sharper and harsher 240p than both models of the Samsung despite being the identical 1024x768 anamorphic pixel resolution. N64 and PS1 games look much better on the Samsung (IMHO) due to its 240p mode.

On the flip side, if I send a 240p picture prescaled (via emulator,etc) to the sets native 1024x768 resolution, such as the Kega Fusion pics I posted in the F4500 thread, the result is a razor sharp picture. If I set the emulator to 480p to enable the sets 480p scaling mode, the resulting image is also sharper and harsher than its 240p mode. This can be seen in some of the pics 22point8 posted of Kirby SNES in the F4500 thread.

It really has nothing to do with plasma vs. LCD and has everything to do with whether you are using native resolution or a non-native res that uses the sets built in scalers. A native 1080p image on my 5300 is as razor sharp as any LCD Ive ever seen, just the same as a native 768p image on the F4500s. Ive seen many 1080p LCD sets whose 480p scaling is a blurry mess, not nearly as crisp as what the 720p F4500 produces. The only things that really affect this is the native res of the set and how a non-native res is scaled when displayed, the actual display technology itself (at least with OLED vs LCD vs plasma) has very little to do with it.