4th Annual Top 25 Shumps of All Time! - Results

[Rob]

Magic of manics = eye candy?

That's what they're known for. Parallax, high definition 3D (see Shikigami II - stunner!), etc.

[louisg]

Magic of manics = eye candy?

That's what they're known for. Parallax, high definition 3D (see Shikigami II - stunner!), etc.

I can't tell when people are being sarcastic or not around here... that sounds like a point someone would make earnestly. So what are 75% of the bullets for then if we've established previously that 75% can't hit you?

[Dandy J]

The other 75% are there in case you aren't where you are at a given point in time.

And NTSC-J is right about Ketsui.

[louisg]

The other 75% are there in case you aren't where you are at a given point in time.

Shmup mysticism -- Kind of the opposite of "wherever you go, there you are" I guess

[BulletMagnet]

Well, my point was that, with Cave games (at least the ones I have played), you don't HAVE to master them to get far. Yes, to score well you must master them. I imagine the same could be said of ANYTHING, including Blast Wind. But the amount of time one (or in theory, me) would have to spend to even clear RS or Mars Matrix would probably be a lot higher than that of a Cave game.

So the main make-or-break point for you is that the games you like force you to work your butt off to do ANYthing in them, while the ones you're not nuts about make the butt-off-working just as available, but a bit more "optional," for lack of a better word.

One side of this argument might declare "Hah! I play only MANLY games! (that term has always irritated me for some reason...) I fear nothing! I do not shy away from any challenge!" The other side, however, might say "If you like a challenge so much, why do you only put the time into games which lead you by the hand to it? Why not devote yourself to some 'optional' challenges, and not just 'required' ones?"

I was just saying though, a lot of people complain about shmups they have to "learn to play" to get anywhere in them, especially around here. *shrugs*

I've asked it before and I'll ask it again: got any links? There seems to be this superstition around here that this forum is being overrun and eaten from the inside out by endless invading hordes of bellyaching, insubordinate, hopeless scrubs...maybe I'm just thick, but I honestly don't see it (and present the standings of MM and RSG, among others, in the Top 25 as evidence). On very, very rare occasions someone stops in who starts shooting his mouth off about some game or other and is quickly silenced, but most of the time about the "worst" I see is someone saying that a certain beloved game is not "bad," but rather flawed or imperfect, and the game's fans proceed to overreact and immediately label him a "hater" or whatnot. If anything, I'd say that this forum's priority ought to be, not weeding out those who aren't "hardcore" enough, but in learning the difference between "I've played game xyz, and despite its strengths I think it has some problems" and "Due solely to pre-existing prejudices and personal limitations, I declare that game xyz invariably sucks, and so does anyone who plays it."

[Rob]

So what are 75% of the bullets for then if we've established previously that 75% can't hit you?

To put the fear into you and take your money/credit (by crashing into the "25%" that count, obviously). Scare tactics.

[captain ahar]

decent list. shame to see that ddp held the top spot. i love it, but it is not the Shmup (note capital to denote definitiveness).

nice to mars matrix up there. great game.

gradius V seems awfully high too, for my tastes. ignoring all the of the others it upseated (too many), it was the most highly placed gradius as well? nonsense.

[jp]

decent list. shame to see that ddp held the top spot. i love it, but it is not the Shmup (note capital to denote definitiveness).

nice to mars matrix up there. great game.

gradius V seems awfully high too, for my tastes. ignoring all the of the others it upseated (too many), it was the most highly placed gradius as well? nonsense.

I concur with your assessment. I imagine GV is up there because:
A. Its new.
B. It got a US release.

So... a lot more people have probably played it. And its fresher in minds than Ikaruga (though I don't think I even voted for Ikaruga, at least, I hope I didn't).

So the main make-or-break point for you is that the games you like force you to work your butt off to do ANYthing in them, while the ones you're not nuts about make the butt-off-working just as available, but a bit more "optional," for lack of a better word.

Dude... I don't even know what the hell you're trying to argue here. How many times do I have to mention Blast Wind? Obviously, a game "forcing" me to get good at it is not the end-all-be-all test for me to like a shmup. Nexzr? Lords of Thunder? I'm sure the list goes on. I had several shmups in my top 25 list that are easier than DDP, so obviously, I'm not pushing the:

"Hah! I play only MANLY games! (that term has always irritated me for some reason...) I fear nothing! I do not shy away from any challenge!"

argument that you seem to have placed in my mouth.

I was just saying that, given the lean towards manics and games that I generally find easier during THIS voting period, I was surprised to see games that make you WORK to even get through them on the list. Thats it. Thats all I was saying. There's no underlying dissery there. Just "Wow, 6 Cave shmups... big surprise." Thats it! Nothing more. No need to read into it.

[captain ahar]

I was just saying that, given the lean towards manics and games that I generally find easier during THIS voting period, I was surprised to see games that make you WORK to even get through them on the list. Thats it. Thats all I was saying. There's no underlying dissery there. Just "Wow, 6 Cave shmups... big surprise." Thats it! Nothing more. No need to read into it.

what the fuck are you trying to say anyway, jp?

[jp]

I was just saying that, given the lean towards manics and games that I generally find easier during THIS voting period, I was surprised to see games that make you WORK to even get through them on the list. Thats it. Thats all I was saying. There's no underlying dissery there. Just "Wow, 6 Cave shmups... big surprise." Thats it! Nothing more. No need to read into it.

what the fuck are you trying to say anyway, jp?

Pffft! Wouldn't you like to know?

[Rob]

I concur with your assessment. I imagine GV is up there because:
A. Its new.
B. It got a US release.

Wasn't "it's new" the explanation last year? People were anticipating it to drop, and now it's gone up over a year after its newness.

DDP didn't get a U.S. release and it's not new. It is #1. Where's Chaos Field? It's new and got a U.S. release. Point is, these weird explanations for games you and other people don't enjoy are irrational and pointless.

Gradius V is successful because it takes the Gradius formula and updates it, debatably makes it more enjoyable. It is polished graphically and has a nice Sakimoto soundtrack. Big name franchise (for shooters) and availability don't hurt, but I doubt it's much of a factor. Of all shooter companies, I think Treasure attracts the most fandom "just because," but I think that's also a small boost, since it really is not like a Treasure shooter.

Key elements to get a game on the list:
-Accessibility? There's quite a few people voting, so obviously this is a mixed factor. But you know when we have "most difficult shooter" polls? What games come out on top? Battle Garegga, DOJ, Gunbird 2, etc. On the list! Hard games. Games with elaborate scoring systems? About 60% of the games on the list. Whether or not people bother with the details is beside the point, these are the games that got selected.
-Overall polished presentation, graphics and music. Most games on the list look nice and have nice soundtracks.
-Availability. This has to play a role, but I think it's a small one. Import Saturn-PS2 games don't seem to be having a problem. But then there's the acclaimed Ketsui while multiple Cave games ranked above it (and is Raiden Fighters emulated yet?). I think this only hurts arcade exclusives that are unemulated, which is not huge element. PC games probably also get less attention than console/arcade games.

Can't think of anything else to add.

Games I think got cheated!:
-Dragon Blaze
-Darius Gaiden (I don't think I voted for this, though...)
-Giga Wing 2? (GW1 is good enough for one series, but I'm surprised GW1 has a much greater following. can't explain it)

[louisg]

I concur with your assessment. I imagine GV is up there because:
A. Its new.
B. It got a US release.

Wasn't "it's new" the explanation last year? People were anticipating it to drop, and now it's gone up over a year after its newness.

DDP didn't get a U.S. release and it's not new. It is #1. Where's Chaos Field? It's new and got a U.S. release. Point is, these weird explanations for games you and other people don't enjoy are irrational and pointless.

Saying that Gradius V might be there because 'it's new' or 'it got a US release' doesn't mean that he's saying these same reasons are satisfied for every game in the top spots. GV is also a nice looking game (especially compared to most other recent US shooter releases like Chaos Field or Shikigami which have rougher graphics).

I'm not convinced that the newness/domestic release arguments are irrational. I mean, if nothing else, a domestic release for an unemulated game immediately means more people will be able to try it out...

[Rob]

Saying that Gradius V might be there because 'it's new' or 'it got a US release' doesn't mean that he's saying these same reasons are satisfied for every game in the top spots.

I know. It's random "oh so that's why..." Really what does "in the U.S." matter to people on this forum? Nearly all of us have import/modded systems. If that was really an important factor, it wouldn't be an import dominated list. It's not thinking.

I'm not convinced that the newness/domestic release arguments are irrational. I mean, if nothing else, a domestic release for an unemulated game immediately means more people will be able to try it out...

Yeah... people would still play this if it wasn't in the U.S. See Gradius Gaiden (and I'm sure more people than not think G5 is better) or other import PS2 shooters like Galuda. I'm willing to bet those votes aren't coming from PCBs and Japan's arcades.

[Twiddle]

-Giga Wing 2? (GW1 is good enough for one series, but I'm surprised GW1 has a much greater following. can't explain it)

Giga Wing 2 was pretty dizzying

[cigsthecat]

Batrider not being in the top 25 is pretty lame, but Garegga's pretty high up so that helps.

Dragon Blaze should certainly be top 25 as well.

Somewhat disappointed in the list overall this year.

[jp]

I concur with your assessment. I imagine GV is up there because:
A. Its new.
B. It got a US release.

Wasn't "it's new" the explanation last year? People were anticipating it to drop, and now it's gone up over a year after its newness.

Erm... I meant new as in... like... released in the past 3 years. I guess I should have been more clear on that. I mean, it would still be considered one of the more recent shmups... because... well... it is.

DDP didn't get a U.S. release and it's not new. It is #1. Where's Chaos Field? It's new and got a U.S. release. Point is, these weird explanations for games you and other people don't enjoy are irrational and pointless.

Chaos Field? Are you kidding me? Its not even really considered a good game (though some love it... for whatever reason).

Besides, didn't 100+ people vote? I don't know, last time I checked there's... what? 25 people that post here on a regular basis? 50? Sure, most (as there are people that refuse to import, for whatever reason) of those 25 or 50 or so import, but I have no clue 'bout the other 50+.

Gradius V is successful because it takes the Gradius formula and updates it, debatably makes it more enjoyable. It is polished graphically and has a nice Sakimoto soundtrack. Big name franchise (for shooters) and availability don't hurt, but I doubt it's much of a factor. Of all shooter companies, I think Treasure attracts the most fandom "just because," but I think that's also a small boost, since it really is not like a Treasure shooter.

Eh... its a big name shmup. A lot more people have played it than... say... Hyper Duel or Batsugun or Lords of Thunder. All three of which I would say are much better games.

Ah well, I still think the list was kinda lame. There are so many fecking awesome PC-Engine, Genesis, NES, etc. shmups, a lot of which are much better than Cave's games.

Actually, Batsugun didn't even make the top 25. Yet 6 Cave games did. That alone baffles me.

[professor ganson]

Nearly all of us have import/modded systems. If that was really an important factor, it wouldn't be an import dominated list.

All of which makes it so puzzling why Dragon Blaze isn't on the list. It was top on my list, so I know it's not my fault. I suspect it has something to do with the common misperception that later Psikyo titles have nothing new to offer. My guess is that that widespread misconception keeps people from actually buying/playing the game. Those who have put real time into it know it's a quality game. To the many it looks like a diehards-only title.

[Rob]

Erm... I meant new as in... like... released in the past 3 years. I guess I should have been more clear on that. I mean, it would still be considered one of the more recent shmups... because... well... it is.

The votes are in: Gradius V best shooter of last 3 years! We all have shooting history to compare this game to and it's still at the top. Past the initial rush of playing an actual new game, I don't think release dates mean much. Newness is history for this one.

Chaos Field? Are you kidding me? Its not even really considered a good game

Exactly. That's why it didn't make the list and G5 did. Not the regions it saw release.

A lot more people have played it than... say... Hyper Duel or Batsugun or Lords of Thunder.

I honestly don't think it would make a difference.

[captain ahar]

A lot more people have played it than... say... Hyper Duel or Batsugun or Lords of Thunder.

I honestly don't think it would make a difference.

i don't know rob... i, for one, have to believe in a better world.

[Rob]

Lords of Thunder? Come on, dudes. I've owned both Sega CD / PC-E versions, beat them and can say I don't get what makes it more than good. It is good, but.

We're talking Gradius V. The heavens gift to both shmupaholics and GamePro enthusiasts.

[jp]

Lords of Thunder? Come on, dudes. I've owned both Sega CD / PC-E versions, beat them and can say I don't get what makes it more than good. It is good, but.

We're talking Gradius V. The heavens gift to both shmupaholics and GamePro enthusiasts.

On that we will have to agree to disagree.

[captain ahar]

i'd say Lords of Thunder and Gradius V are on pretty level ground. well... LoT is a little bit taller...

but the other two like to call Gradius V names in an intimidating tone of voice and make belittling comments behind it's back. sometimes they also enjoy pushing Gradius V into the mud. wet mud.

edit: i take it back. Lords of Thunder is just plain better. simply more fun all around. and it looks better in the way only Turbo games can.

[Rob]

Gradius V's 80 minutes and neverending loops have to count for some height advantage. Gradius V is a goliath. Lords is Gate's awkward little brother who likes AD&D (and hair metal!).

[NTSC-J]

Batsugun is indeed one of the all-time greats, but Hyper Duel and Lords of Thunder? I've played all of em plenty and DOJ has more game in stage 2 than Hyper Duel and Lords of Thunder combined. Personal taste is one thing, if you prefer horis or something I can understand, but if you take a step back and look at overall game design and craftsmanship, DOJ and Ketsui tower over any PCE shooter. Hyper Duel is cool, but it isn't the best anything. If you've spent a lot of time with Ketsui and DOJ I'd love to hear what's so average about them, but you've never even played them.

Anyways, it's dumb to argue over personal preferences, but as nerds we must defend the softs that we hold so dear.

[captain ahar]

Gradius V's 80 minutes and neverending loops have to count for some height advantage.

Nah dude, length advantage, and that is not necessarily a good thing.

[captain ahar]

Anyways, it's dumb to argue over personal preferences, but as nerds we must defend the softs that we hold so dear.

exactly... and no one's talking about DOJ.

[jp]

Anyways, it's dumb to argue over personal preferences, but as nerds we must defend the softs that we hold so dear.

exactly... and no one's talking about DOJ.

This is true. Or Ketsui for that matter.

[Rob]

Nah dude, length advantage, and that is not necessarily a good thing.

It is necessarily when it's all gold. Even the story parts.

(I wish I could post the dialogue here.)

[raiden]

Ah well, I still think the list was kinda lame. There are so many fecking awesome PC-Engine, Genesis, NES, etc. shmups, a lot of which are much better than Cave's games.

that´s what happens when you avoid a PS2 for years. You don´t understand other people´s votes because you haven´t played the games. Do you even play PC shooters? Because that´s the other big platform where things are happening. Your preferred platforms didn´t get any new releases for ages, now of course you can claim that those old games are and will ever be the best there is, but you can´t expect everyone to agree.

@Rob: to me, length is a disadvantage whatever the game´s quality may be. Length means less attempts to improve my score within a given time-span, length means I tend to fall asleep halfway through (happened with Radiant Silvergun and Gradius V), and length means I can´t play the game before heading for work in the morning.

[jp]

Ah well, I still think the list was kinda lame. There are so many fecking awesome PC-Engine, Genesis, NES, etc. shmups, a lot of which are much better than Cave's games.

that´s what happens when you avoid a PS2 for years. You don´t understand other people´s votes because you haven´t played the games. Do you even play PC shooters? Because that´s the other big platform where things are happening. Your preferred platforms didn´t get any new releases for ages, now of course you can claim that those old games are and will ever be the best there is, but you can´t expect everyone to agree.

Yes I've played PC shmups. ABA shmups, that CHo Ren 56K (I know I butchered the name, its been awhile) shmup, whoever made Perfect Cherry Blossom and all that, played most of those as well.

And just because I do not OWN a PS2 doesn't mean I've never played anything on the console. There are these things called "friends", and believe it or not, I don't only make friends with other Sony haters.
In fact, the couple of friends that play shmups and have Sony consoles are constantly shoving all that drivel down my throat. They're the only reason I know Souky on PS1 is a pile of shit.

And FYI, as for Cave games, they can be found on this magical thing called MAME. And I've owned a couple of modded Xbox consoles in my time. You can do the math.

As for Gradius V, I have played it. My roomate at the time it came out bought it (he also bought R-Type Final). And... I didn't think either of them were all that special. I've got R-Type Delta and Harmful Park emulated on DC (HP thanks to DantesInferno). Guess what? I don't like either of them either. Even on the Dreamcast. And I've 1CC'd Harmful Park.