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 Post subject: RQ: Under Defeat, bomb distribution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:45 pm 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
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Please suggest a bomb distribution that will enable me to get as far as I can in Under Defeat in one hour of total playtime, which is approximately what I will get in the upcoming Bay Area shmupmeet. (And if the game won't be available there, at least your suggestions could help newcomers to the game.)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:57 pm 


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I can recommend a few spots where I always bomb, although doing so is not necessary (and in fact is detrimental to your score):

1-2, when coming around the far side of the boss ship, before the missle launchers. I bomb here so that I can leech off as much of the boss' health as possible without repercussions.

1-3, on the midboss, I bomb once so that I can take him out as soon as possible.

1-3, on the boss, I bomb twice when he goes behind me, as I still have difficulty moving through his machine gun fire otherwise. If you can take him out before that there's no need, of course, but I have difficulty doing that.

1-4, I often bomb once right at the start of the boss battle, to take out the turrets so that I can get a good shot at the spotlight.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:53 pm 


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i managed to get will into stage 4 in my first hour's play, so i think i can give you a good idea:

stage 1-2 once on each battleship - each ship has lots of weapons and can be tricky on the first few attempts as the perspective in this game makes dodging hard at first. bombing the moment the pattern starts getting tight should destroy many of the guns.

stage 1-2 boss - not hard but the first pattern could catch you on you first attempt. even if you bomb twice here you should have one left for the next stage.

stage 1-3 midboss - nasty at first. i would stay well clear of the main weapon and fire a bomb. a minute or two after killing it enemies will flood the screen, another good moment for bombing. shortly after this you will collect another bomb. i recommend collecting the rocket here, for the next bit...

stage 1-3 boss - there's an easy way to do this, especially if you have a bomb. start by rocketing either engine, then getting fairly close and shooting until the engine explodes. the central turret will fire as you do this, but you can ignore the turret as it will be destroyed by rocket splash damage in a few moments. when your rocket recharges move to the other side and repeat on the other engine. as you do this a rocket will fly up from the bottom of the screen, if you bomb as it does you can continue to point blank the engine in safety. with luck (and maybe another bomb if you have it) the boss should die with around 75 seconds left on the clock.

stage 1-4 big turrets near the end - these can be tricky, but if you get past these in an hour you don't need my advice :D

and generally... any time you find yourself dodging a tricky pattern while the small helis which fire fast aimed bullets are hanging around. death can occur unexpectedly in this situation as a shot from a heli can blend in quite well with larger shots from other enemies.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:06 am 


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It might be kinda hard to suggest exact areas to bomb in if you haven't played the game before. But if you're aiming for survival instead of score, you should definitely bomb any time it looks like you're in trouble, because everyone always seems to die in this game with bombs in reserve. The game throws plenty of bombs your way (1 in the first stage, 2 in every stage afterward), they're there to be used. However, keep in mind that every bomb you use will cost you 10k on the level bonus. (and if you're going for score, don't use a bomb when a boss is just about dead, because if you destroy it while the bomb is going off, you get no points for it. However, if you can "soften" it up a little, then plan a rocket to go off right when the bomb blast is ending...)

I never bomb in 1-1 or 1-2. Yeah using a bomb on the boss battleship on 1-2 can help if you want to damage to the "main" part of the ship before the lifebar comes up, but I can still do enough damage to it beforehand (while still getting Cannon kills on the turrets).

Definitely use a bomb on the midboss on 1-3. Remember to stay off to the sides, you don't want to be lined up with its main turret. Use a bomb when it fires one of its round explosions that disperses into 7 bullets, because it's easy to panic right there. You'll get another bomb back before the 1-3 boss anyway. I sometimes use a bomb on the 1-3 boss depending on if I run into trouble on it, I try to take out the guns in the middle of the ship before it moves to the bottom of the screen, but if you spend too much time on that, it'll take longer to kill...

1-4 can be tough. Definitely keep your finger on the bomb button if it's your first time there, as there's a lot of tricky parts. Watch out for the big turrets that release lightning bolt explosions since that slows down your copter, depending on where you are on the screen you might not be able to dodge certain other bullets that are coming at you, so be ready to bomb. The best means of doing damage quickly on the boss is to line yourself up with it and fire a rocket, but lining yourself up is bad at the beginning since it has the searchlight. Use a bomb if you need to, I usually do.

1-5... uh, good luck? :) I don't use a bomb on the first midboss any more, but if it's your first time there you may want to. Be sure to aim at the propellers on one side of the ship, you only have to take out one wing to kill it. The hoverthings that show up later are much worse though, keep an eye on where their cannons are aimed because they're not always pointed right at you and you might end up running right into a bullet. Bomb away. As for the last boss... yeah, good luck.

I'd also suggest looking at the Option distribution I posted in the high score thread. (basic gist of it is to stick with either Vulcan or Cannon until the boss and then switch to Rocket, unless it's 1-2 which I recommend using the Cannon the entire way through. Of course if you've never played it before, you won't know how many power-ups there are in the level, so uh...)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:56 am 



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it290, mulletgeezer, and BBH,

Thanks for helping me build my bomb distribution. Right now, it looks like this:

Code:
s l b t p   description
- - - - --- ----
2 2 5 T 20  battleship #1
2 2 4 T 30  battleship #2
2 2 3 T 50  battleship #3
2 2 2 B     first pattern
2 2 1 B     control tower before far side
3 2 1 T 50  midboss
3 2 0 T 60  enemy flood
3 2 0 B     second rocket
3 1 3 T 60  large tanks
4 1 3 T 100 turrets at the end
4 1 2 B     beginning

where
s = stage number in the first round
l = lives remaining after using a bomb here
b = bombs remaining after using a bomb here
t = Trip or Boss scene
p = approximate percentage of the stage completed

I would like to clear stage 1-4 of this game, so I have a total of sixteen bombs to distribute. I only have eleven bombs distributed, though, and I would like to have the other five bombs in fixed locations (I hate to use bombs for emergency evasion). Where should I put the last five bombs?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:07 am 



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it290 wrote:
I can recommend a few spots where I always bomb, although doing so is not necessary (and in fact is detrimental to your score):

I don't think score will affect my strategies for survival, so I don't mind any potential score losses.


it290 wrote:
1-4, I often bomb once right at the start of the boss battle, to take out the turrets so that I can get a good shot at the spotlight.

Does this look like the under_gnl_st_4_boss.wmv demonstration found in this web site:

http://kudzilla.info/nerve/game/underdefeat/under.html

(look under the heading 1-4 FORTRESS and the last orange subheading for the video)
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Last edited by BER on Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:08 am 



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mulletgeezer wrote:
stage 1-3 boss - there's an easy way to do this, especially if you have a bomb. start by rocketing either engine, then getting fairly close and shooting until the engine explodes. the central turret will fire as you do this, but you can ignore the turret as it will be destroyed by rocket splash damage in a few moments. when your rocket recharges move to the other side and repeat on the other engine. as you do this a rocket will fly up from the bottom of the screen, if you bomb as it does you can continue to point blank the engine in safety. with luck (and maybe another bomb if you have it) the boss should die with around 75 seconds left on the clock.

Does this look like the under_gnl_st_3_boss.wmv demonstration found in this web site:

http://kudzilla.info/nerve/game/underdefeat/under.html

(look under the heading 1-3 FRONT LINE for the video)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:17 am 



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BBH wrote:
It might be kinda hard to suggest exact areas to bomb in if you haven't played the game before.

[snip]

I'd also suggest looking at the Option distribution I posted in the high score thread. (basic gist of it is to stick with either Vulcan or Cannon until the boss and then switch to Rocket, unless it's 1-2 which I recommend using the Cannon the entire way through. Of course if you've never played it before, you won't know how many power-ups there are in the level, so uh...)

I have videos from am.sega.jp and kudzilla.info to help me contextualize your descriptions, so I will probably be familiar with the stage layouts of the game in time for the shmupmeet. Anyway, I'll review your option distribution soon (I'm sleepy right now!). Thanks for posting that.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:57 am 


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you're taking this quite seriously, eh? the stage 3 boss video was almost exactly the method i had in mind. will you be playing the DC or naomi version? if it's the DC version then maybe you can use the practice mode on a few key areas before starting for real. a few minutes practice on the 3rd boss would help you get the method down. a few minutes practice on the area from the 3rd level midboss would be handy too, and a quick practice on the level 2 boss would allow you to not bomb on that section as it's really rather easy once you've done it a couple of times.

It's hard to decide where to place the remaining bombs, and also hard to describe them. there's a section with several rail tanks which might benefit from a bomb, there's a section shortly before that with 2 turrets and tanks firing from different levels (which makes them harder to shoot from a distance) which might be a good bombing moment as there are quite a few bullets around. there's also the lightning turrets: if the lightning strikes (thus slowing your heli) while you're in the path of bullets from the small turrets a bombing moment might occur, though probably not if you position yourself correctly before the lightning, or destroy the turret early. Have you not played the game at all yet?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:06 pm 



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mulletgeezer wrote:
you're taking this quite seriously, eh?

Indeed! I find shmups more fun if I know how to manage the game's valuable resources, like the bombs and options in Under Defeat.


mulletgeezer wrote:
the stage 3 boss video was almost exactly the method i had in mind.

Okay, thanks for verifying.


mulletgeezer wrote:
will you be playing the DC or naomi version?

I think I'll be playing the DC version, although since I'll play this game in the upcoming shmupmeet, I don't think I'll be able to use the practice mode when others are waiting to play.


mulletgeezer wrote:
It's hard to decide where to place the remaining bombs, and also hard to describe them. there's a section with several rail tanks which might benefit from a bomb, there's a section shortly before that with 2 turrets and tanks firing from different levels (which makes them harder to shoot from a distance) which might be a good bombing moment as there are quite a few bullets around. there's also the lightning turrets: if the lightning strikes (thus slowing your heli) while you're in the path of bullets from the small turrets a bombing moment might occur, though probably not if you position yourself correctly before the lightning, or destroy the turret early.

I guess these locations are all from stage 1-4. I've checked them out, and I've added four new locations to my bomb distribution:

Code:
s t p   description
- - --- ----
2 T 20  battleship 1
2 T 30  battleship 2
2 T 50  battleship 3
2 B     first pattern
2 B     control tower before far side
3 T 50  mid-boss
3 T 60  enemy flood
3 B     second rocket
4 T 30  lightning turret 1 . . . . . . new
4 T 30  lightning turret 2 . . . . . . new
4 T 50  bridge and two turrets . . . . new
4 T 60  tanks on rails
4 T 60  lightning turrets 3 and 4  . . new
4 T 90  turrets at the end
4 B     beginning

where
s = stage number in the first round
t = Trip or Boss scene
p = approximate percentage of the stage trip completed

One more free bomb to distribute, and I'll be happy. :)


mulletgeezer wrote:
Have you not played the game at all yet?

I haven't played it yet. I'll play it this Saturday.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:01 pm 


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yes, sorry, i forgot to mention all those sections are on stage 4. if you can manage to clear the first 4 stages on your very first go of the game your friends will be deeply impressed, though you'll have to clear the first loop on your first game for authentic shmup legend status :D

i think the last bomb should be given to the stage 4 boss - as i remember the superplay on the DC version shows the boss can be defeated with 3 rockets, but placing these rockets while dodging is tricky i find. if you bomb while the weak point is facing forward i imagine placing the rocket will be easy. 2 rockets + 2 bombs + shooting from close range during bomb explosions should just about destroy the boss.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:06 am 



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Why is it so important that you get that far at the shmupmeet, to the extent of actually making a table of where to let off bombs, when you have not yet played the game? Is there going to be a competition or contest there? (This is an honest question, by the way, not trolling. :) )
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:04 am 


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yeah, is there a prize or something at stake? Or are you just that competitive? ;)

I don't think it's necessary to bomb at both lightning turrets around 1/3 of the way through 1-4, one or the other should be fine. 1-4 is deceivingly hard though, I die on it all the time.

Just remember not to use a bomb on a boss whe it's almost dead... if you can, stop firing at the boss and try to time a Rocket to come out when all the damage from the bomb subsides.

I need to work on bomb distribution for the 2nd loop.... :(
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:51 am 



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Eps wrote:
Why is it so important that you get that far at the shmupmeet, to the extent of actually making a table of where to let off bombs, when you have not yet played the game? Is there going to be a competition or contest there? (This is an honest question, by the way, not trolling. :) )

BBH wrote:
yeah, is there a prize or something at stake? Or are you just that competitive? ;)

I'll touch on all of these questions. I'm not competitive yet, because I have neither the time nor the money to be that way. I don't think the shmupmeet host will hold a contest over this game, but even if he didn't, I would still request for a bomb distribution anyway.

I enjoy shmups when I don't have to worry about how to manage the game's valuable resources, like the bombs and options in Under Defeat. I would feel too tense if I had to worry about whether the next surprise enemy requires a bomb or a different option. And I would feel disgusted if I die with bombs in stock or if I bomb in a situation that was supposed to be easy (and then run out of bombs prematurely for the difficult parts). By having knowledge about the game's valuable resources ahead of time, then I don't have to feel such tension or disgust. The side effect is that I get far into the game, because most shmups allow me to get away with using my valuable resources intelligently. And feeling smart feels great.


BBH wrote:
I don't think it's necessary to bomb at both lightning turrets around 1/3 of the way through 1-4, one or the other should be fine.

This would free up a bomb. Where should I put it?


BBH wrote:
Just remember not to use a bomb on a boss whe it's almost dead... if you can, stop firing at the boss and try to time a Rocket to come out when all the damage from the bomb subsides.

How will I benefit from this? I think doing this doubles the boss's point value, but I have no need for that.


BBH wrote:
I need to work on bomb distribution for the 2nd loop.... :(

Have fun with that. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:31 pm 


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Quote:
Does this look like the under_gnl_st_4_boss.wmv demonstration found in this web site:


Heh, no, that guy's technique on that boss is much smoother than mine. Looking at that, I should actually try the cannon there -- I've been using the rocket on him. I recall using the cannon once or twice, but I seem to have a hard time preventing it from tracking the small turrets instead of the main one. I guess getting up in the boss' face and releasing it is the key there.

As for bomb timing, ideally when facing a boss/midboss, you want to bomb after lauching your option or waiting for it to recharge, especially with the rocket. That way you basically get another 'free' option launch out of the deal.

On 1-4, I wouldn't waste a bomb on either of the first two lightning turrets, personally. If you use the cannon and take out the big turrets first, you can destroy them before they've fired their lightning, and the small turrets go down rather easily with regular gunfire. I do sometimes find myself having to bomb on the part with two small turrets an a bunch of tanks, and the last section with a bunch of turrets, though.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:21 pm 



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BER wrote:
I enjoy shmups when I don't have to worry about how to manage the game's valuable resources, like the bombs and options in Under Defeat. I would feel too tense if I had to worry about whether the next surprise enemy requires a bomb or a different option.


For me, that's part of the fun and excitement of shoot-em-ups - discovering for myself when and where to use various tactics. When I've discovered what to do, I find that my memory alone serves me very well. I'm not at all attacking you for doing it your way, though -- the purpose of these games, in the end, is to entertain the individual in whatever way he or she sees fit. (So long as that's not using 200 continues and then posting a topic on here going ZOMG I PWNED DODONPACHI LOLOLZ :D )
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:09 am 


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BER wrote:
I enjoy shmups when I don't have to worry about how to manage the game's valuable resources, like the bombs and options in Under Defeat. I would feel too tense if I had to worry about whether the next surprise enemy requires a bomb or a different option. And I would feel disgusted if I die with bombs in stock or if I bomb in a situation that was supposed to be easy (and then run out of bombs prematurely for the difficult parts). By having knowledge about the game's valuable resources ahead of time, then I don't have to feel such tension or disgust. The side effect is that I get far into the game, because most shmups allow me to get away with using my valuable resources intelligently. And feeling smart feels great.


Fair enough, because dying with bombs in stock seems to happen a lot in this game, and it really does make you feel disgusted. But the topic just seems a little odd when you're asking for help on a game you haven't played yet. I know you want to make the most of your time when you get to play it, but like Eps said, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had over coming up with your own strategies for getting through the level. I mean, memorization is obviously pretty important in this game, but I've constantly revised the strategies I use for getting through certain levels. I do still watch replay videos, but I don't copy everything I watch from them. For one thing, the videos that are floating around online show different strategies compared to the replays that are provided in the game, which is great because it shows that there's not one single "right" way to play the game (although I imagine that there's only one "correct" way of maximizing points on each level, since I still haven't managed to reach the scores the Japanese players get on the first loop).

Sure making the most of your bombs is important, but what happens when you use the bombs on enemies that really aren't that difficult but then you're out when you encounter a much tougher boss? I suppose there's some satisfaction to be had from not dying with bombs in reserve, but in the long run bombs are a very important commodity in a game with no extends, and can impede your progress if you use too many bombs early on.

Quote:
BBH wrote:
I don't think it's necessary to bomb at both lightning turrets around 1/3 of the way through 1-4, one or the other should be fine.

This would free up a bomb. Where should I put it?


On the 1-4 boss if you need it.

Quote:
BBH wrote:
Just remember not to use a bomb on a boss whe it's almost dead... if you can, stop firing at the boss and try to time a Rocket to come out when all the damage from the bomb subsides.

How will I benefit from this? I think doing this doubles the boss's point value, but I have no need for that.


You're not interested in score at all?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:51 am 



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Time for a postmortem.

In my first 1.5 hours of playtime, my best performance was clearing about 75% of the stage 1-4 trip. I think that's where one tank is on the left side of the screen and one anti-air artillery is on the right side, and both are in front of the bridge, which is in front of the two lightning turrets. In all of my performances, I kept dying at random spots, which prevented me from using my bomb distribution fully. Furthermore, against the stage 1-3 boss, I had trouble executing the 75-second strategy that mulletgeezer described.

The following are the locations in which I bombed consistently:

Code:
s t p   description
- - --- ----
2 T 30  battleships 1 and 2
2 T 50  battleship 3
2 B     beginning
2 B     control tower itself
2 ?     some random place...
3 T 60  mid-boss, exploding mines appear
3 T 60  mid-boss, exploding mines appear
3 B     second rocket
3 B     back attack
4 T 30  lightning turrets 1 and 2
4 T 50  bridge and two turrets
4 T 60  tanks on rails

where
s = stage number in the first round
t = Trip or Boss scene
p = approximate percentage of the stage trip completed

Ah well, the game was a little fun. Thanks, guys, for the help.


BBH wrote:
Sure making the most of your bombs is important, but what happens when you use the bombs on enemies that really aren't that difficult but then you're out when you encounter a much tougher boss? I suppose there's some satisfaction to be had from not dying with bombs in reserve, but in the long run bombs are a very important commodity in a game with no extends, and can impede your progress if you use too many bombs early on.

If I end up using bombs on enemies that really aren't that difficult, then I would redistribute my bombs. But now let's suppose that my bomb distribution covers the most difficult parts of the game. If I'm stuck without bombs when I encounter a much tougher boss, then I'm supposed to die against it anyway. It's part of the plan.

By the way, with the bomb distribution that we constructed here, I'm more likely to die without reserve bombs during the tougher parts of the stage trips, not the stage bosses.


BBH wrote:
You're not interested in score at all?

My goal was to clear stage 1-4. Going for score would have hurt my chances of achieving this goal, so I ignored score. I was more interested in experiencing the various level designs and less so in working with the scoring mechanics.
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