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 Post subject: RQ: DOJ Play for Survival and not Hypering
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:27 pm 


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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Hello fellow shmuppers:

I read many post on this forum about how to optimize score DOJ score, but have yet to see a thread on playing for survival. I have a question: is it worth while to avoid the hyper icon, so you don't have to deal with the rank increase?

Cheers.

WarCheese

P.S.> Now that I finally have the game in my PS-2, I must say it's a great game. It also KICKS my butt.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:36 am 


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If I recall the Strategy thread correctly, there are 2 types of rank in the game: "basic" rank and "bullet speed" rank. The first, IIRC, is mainly affected by survival time, while the latter is affected by Hyper use. As such, avoiding Hypers will lessen that one aspect of the rank, but not every part of it...I guess you'd just have to experiment and see whether the decrease in points is worth the slower bullets speed, depending on how often you use the things.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:15 am 


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Hello:

Does rank increase faster for Exy than, say, Shotia?

WarCheese


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:42 pm 


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I don't think the character selected affects "basic" rank, at least I haven't seen any indication that it does so...Exy's already got the fewest bombs to fall back on as opposed to the others, so methinks they're balanced out more along those lines, rather than rank increase rate.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:03 am 



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@Bullet Magnet: What a strange concidence... I always find you speaking about rank matters :) However, it's so many time I don't see you on Garegga ST... How are you fella?


Speaking about DOJ: that's a really great Cave effort, and I think it is so difficult that coul'd be worth playing even for survival by unexperienced players like me :)


About hypers: sometimes (read: ALWAYS...) it's really difficult to dodge hypers icons, since they float in the lower section of the screen for a while, and you have to dodge bulletts also... However, if you manage to do it, it shoul'd be a good way to tame the rank a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:41 am 


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stratos wrote:
@Bullet Magnet: What a strange concidence... I always find you speaking about rank matters :) However, it's so many time I don't see you on Garegga ST... How are you fella?

Heh heh, actually IIRC I visited it relatively recently...someone (I forget who) managed to hack MAME somehow so that not only is Garegga's rank counter visible, but it's in "rank-o-meter" form, so you can even see when you're about to roll over to the next level (in otherwords, it's the rank-o-meter that it [and even more inexcusably, Ibara] SHOULD have had :P). I put a request up for him to share any specific rank facts he found via his innovation with the rest of us, since so much about Garegga's rank is still unconfirmed or undiscovered...

Quote:
About hypers: sometimes (read: ALWAYS...) it's really difficult to dodge hypers icons, since they float in the lower section of the screen for a while, and you have to dodge bulletts also...

It can be tricky, but it is doable...IIRC, the icon will float down the screen once, hit the bottom and float back up to the top once, and then disappear. As such, seeing as in DOJ (and most Cave games, really) you spend most of your time at the bottom of the screen to give yourself room to see the bullet patterns coming, if you can avoid it when it's near the bottom, the rest of the time it's onscreen should present little risk of you running into it, even by accident. It'll still happen once in awhile, but not enough to make a major rank difference, methinks.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:43 am 


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to quote 8.5

"to chain is to survive"

I suck at this game hahah
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 Post subject: from a n00b to another n00b . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:06 am 


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wall, u can "limit" HBR-increase, if

- you drop a bomb quickly after using a hyper you failed to dodge
- you ignore bees in the first place

:idea:


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 Post subject: Re: RQ: DOJ Play for Survival and not Hypering
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:29 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
WarCheese wrote:
I have a question: is it worth while to avoid the hyper icon, so you don't have to deal with the rank increase?

What do you want to achieve? If you want to clear just the first round easily, I can tell you what I've learned from this guide, which is written in Japanese:

http://inu40.web.infoseek.co.jp/daioujyou/index.html
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:18 am 



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BER,

please tell us!
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:23 pm 


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if you just want to 1CC the 1st loop, just pick a shot-type ship, the amount of bombs should allow for a cheap loop clear like in DDP.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:38 am 



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By fl0w's request, I'll summarize the strategy for using hyper items that I've learned from the player mentioned in my previous post:

  • Stage 1: Avoid collecting any hyper items, especially those from the boss's bits.
  • Stage 2
    • Collect the last hyper item that appears before the mid-boss and use it in the section after the mid-boss. (I guess you must do this in order to get the extend for breaking the 30-million-point mark.)
    • Avoid collecting any hyper items afterwards.
  • Stage 3: Collect only one hyper item for emergency evasion.
  • Stages 4 and 5: Use hyper items however you wish, but avoid possessing more than one hyper item. (Most enemies can now fire bullet patterns that can trap you regardless of rank, so destroying them quickly in hyper mode will give you a better chance to survive.)
I haven't cleared the first round with this strategy, however--I've only played the game in a few shmupmeets. Please let me know whether the strategy works.
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 Post subject: Re: RQ: DOJ Play for Survival and not Hypering
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:08 am 



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 394
After getting entry to the second round with the B-E for the first time, I'll write up some tips before the hard bits become easy for me. I play the Black Label version, but I think these tips will apply to the original version too.


The goal

To enter the second round with the B-E.


Why B-E and not B-S

B-S has lots of bombs to survive, yes, and that's how I got into the second round for the first time ever in this game. Unfortunately, Arcadia does not keep separate records by shot types, and both of the best scoring crafts use Exy. Eventually, I'll want to transition into scoring, so Exy it is.


Means of second round entry

Collect the tenth bee in the first three stages with the big x2. Memorize where these bees are. I also learned where the bees are in stage 4 in case I fail to get all the bees without dying in stage 3, but that's just because I'm stubborn.


Rigid bomb distribution?

Oddly, I didn't have one set, especially for stage 5. On one hand, it's hard to pinpoint where I die late in the game. I depend on getting lucky with the hyper items and having a greater sense of bravado squeezing through gaps. This game is weird like that.


Stage 1

Bee pattern: #1, right edge of the screen and on the wall > #2, left > mid-boss > #3, right > #4 and #5, left > #6, left > #7, left > #8, right and on the wall > #9, left and before the wall > #10, left.

Contrary to what I wrote above, collect any hyper items that appear and don't use a bomb on the boss. You'll need the hyper beam and the bomb in stage 2. Rank won't be a problem for the first two stages anyway.


Stage 2

Bee pattern: #1, left > #2, circle on first building > #3, left > #4, right crater > mid-boss > #5, inside left > #6, inside right > #7, inside right and aligned with #6 > #8, left > #9 and #10, the end.

Keep collecting hyper items. After the mid-boss, once lots of enemies appear, activate the hyper beam and destroy everything to bump up your score. One time, I approached the stage 5 boss with 48 million points, just shy of the second scoring extend. This is the easiest way to actually make up the difference. Grab the hyper item at the end of this run. Destroy the bomb item carrier as soon as it appears, but don't collect the bomb item.

Now for the boss. This trick is basically the same as shown here: http://www.nicozon.net/watch/sm13053189. Go up to below the center of the boss, use the hyper item just when the bullets are about to hit you, and let two more waves pass by you while you're invincible. Then use a bomb, and grab the bomb item that you left floating about. The boss's first phase is quite tough for an early boss, so this is a way to get through it quickly. Use the next bomb when or just before the boss fires its madness pattern.


Stage 3

You'll need a rigid strategy to get all the bees without dying here. I've died everywhere in this stage so here are the places where I get tripped up. The descriptions below may be hard to follow without pictures, so you can use your favorite DOJ video, like this one: http://www.nicozon.net/watch/sm13053189.

Keep your first hyper until the mid-boss. Sometime before the mid-boss, you will get a hyper item. Do not use it until just before the mid-boss.

First bee. Once you destroy the first power-up carrier at the right side of the screen, move to the middle and back to the right. This will get you positioned to destroy that blue-ring enemy and the shotgun turret from right to left easily. Bee #1 is to the left of this turret.

First spinner to the second bee. At the first spinner, you'll see some three-ways from the left side. Don't let these enemies there keep firing them—catch these enemies with your shot. I don't know the best approach from here. You'll face a blue-ring enemy from the left and a shotgun turret from the right. I stay on the left side to destroy the blue-ring enemy first, but then I get forced out by the blue enemies on the right. Perhaps try to start high up in the screen here so you have more room to circle from left to right. You'll need to get back to the left side again to get bee #2. I prefer to reveal the bee from below and dodge bullets to collect it, rather than try to collect it at point-blank and miss.

Third bee. Go the right and destroy the shotgun turret as you return to the left. Reveal bee #3 on the lower-right corner of the second spinner. Keep using shot to catch the four helicopters before they spew more bullets.

Fourth bee. Three blue-ring carriers will appear from right to left. You can hesitate in the middle, draw their bullets down the middle, and then destroy from right to left. Don't forget about bee #4 right below the third spinner.

Fifth bee. Move to the bottom-right corner so you can destroy the shotgun turret there. Then go to the middle and collect bee #5 at point-blank. Now start the hyper beam. Once you destroy the battleship here, move to the top of the screen to meet the mid-boss.

Mid-boss. Stick your aura on the boss for two half-seconds (I do a count about every half-second), then go down. (If you stick your aura on the boss for four counts, then you'll die to its madness attack right away.) You'll spend a few moments dodging some bullets, but the boss should switch to its madness form fairly quickly. And most likely, you'll stay aligned to the boss, so the boss should go down quickly here too.

Enemy rush after the mid-boss. Have the 3rd line of your shot fire at the upper-right corner of the screen. Once the enemies appear, move to the left. Try to stay inside of the bullets that appear on the left of the spread patterns, so that you don't get cornered quickly. The goal is to not make a cutback at all.

A hyper item for emergency evasion. You'll eventually get a hyper item. You can use it for emergency evasion, but if you manage to get through the next parts easily, you should use it when you face the blue-ring enemies before the middle tower with the safe spot. That way, the hyper beam expires just before the boss, and rank is manageable again for the boss.

Sixth bee. The layout is a large shotgun enemy, then flying needle bits (yeah, those bastards that you'll curse to see again in stage 5) from the left, then from the right. Destroy the shotgun enemy first, then quickly move to the left and upwards. (For my magical run, I got too nervous to go up, and the enemies from the right cornered me with their bullets, so I used a hyper too early here.) Then move to the right to destroy the bits there, then destroy the tower. Bee #6 is just under the shotgun enemy, so move up to the shotgun enemy and collect the bee at point blank.

Seventh bee. The layout is bits from the right, then down the middle, then a shotgun enemy to the right and the tower to the left. Dash to the right to catch the enemies on the right, then slowly back to the center for the enemies down the middle. Reveal bee #7 that's between the shotgun enemy and the tower. Kill the shotgun enemy and another set of bits, then collect the bee, then destroy the tower.

Eighth bee. In the video that I keep posting, you'll see the player killing the shotgun enemy first before the bits to the left. It's easier to do it the other way around. Go to the left to kill the bits there first, then slowly make your way to the right and destroy the shotgun enemy up the middle to reveal bee #8 in the process. Collect it, then destroy the tower and the shotgun enemy to the left that follow. You'll see another shotgun enemy to the right, but don't dash there! Bits up the middle will appear afterwards, so take it easy and destroy everything from left to right. Then it's an easy layout from here: shotgun enemy up the middle, tower to the right, shotgun enemy to the left, and a bunch of bits that will lead you to the right side of the screen.

The tower with the safe spot. A blue-ring enemy will appear in the center, then two more from the left and right. (If you still have a hyper item, use it here and rest of the stage will be somewhat easy.) Start from the left edge of the center blue-ring enemy, move your way to the right to destroy the center and right enemies, then back to the left to destroy the left enemy. Then sit just right-of-center of the tower. The spot here is safe, because the channel down the middle of the tower's blue needles are wide, and the enemies from the left and right aim at the center, so you'll enter the right channel of their spread.

The last two bees. This one's tricky. With the small fries at the top, slowly go from the right to the left. Return to the shotgun enemy in the middle quickly, then move to the left to collect bee #9 at point-blank from the bottom of the left tower. Since you're high up, you can simply move down to draw the bullets from the bits away from you. Then collect bee #10 from the bottom of the right tower, and let the tower's destruction clear the bullets for you to finish off this stage.

The boss's first form. For the first attack, just don't be stupid and cut back into the tail end of the pink line of bullets. Dodge the first three waves of the second attack. The fourth waves doesn't have wide gaps to go through and with the weird angles the bullets are fired, you could be tagged off-guard. Use a bomb here. For the third attack, go into the middle cavity of the attack, lead the pink line to left side of the cavity. Eventually, the pattern will cross the middle again. Go through the channel on the right when it happens, then back to the left, and dodge suitably from here. The boss should die when it fires the second attack again.

The boss's second form. Typically, you'll die here and use a bomb on or just before the madness pattern. I got lucky and died just before the madness pattern, so I was able to kill the boss without using a bomb.

Status update. You should have 2 lives and 1 bomb (2 max) here. You still have two more lives pending from the 1up in stage 4 and the second scoring extend that you'll eventually get in stage 5.


Stage 4

Brief notes to be fleshed out later...maybe:

  • First section with the bullet arc turrets x 4. Priority should be on the blue needle bullets, then on whatever tanks are above, then the turrets themselves. You'll very likely get a hyper here, so use it when you see the arc of bullets or get cornered by blue needles.
  • Before the tank platforms on rails. Sweep upper left, upper right, lower right, and go streaming to the left. Lines of bullets won't be a problem.
  • Tank platforms on rails x 3. Whenever you destroy the line of big tanks, move towards the entry point of the platforms (entry points: left > right > left) and stream. That way, you can simply stream without cutting through too many lines of bullets
  • The vertical needle throwers (formation 2-2-2 or something). Right-of-center, upper-left, then circle around slowly to the right. This prevents the need to cut back through the pink bullet lines.
  • Save your hyper for the turrets on rails! I used it too early on my magical run and had to substitute with a bomb instead.
  • 1up. Hard to get down consistently. Wave 1: point blank the right building and move down. Wave 2: go from the center to the upper left, but this is very scary! Wave 3: go down. Wave 4: try to be a little above the cannon's mouth so that as you go down, the cannon will still fire upwards.
  • Turrets on rails. Try to make it through the first three railguns. You can use the hyper afterwards. Stick with the laser to clear out the railguns, since they block the small fries, but you might get an unlucky pattern.
  • The giant laser beam cannon. Stream from one end to the other (direction depends on how you left the railguns), then when the cannon's about to fire, go up. The stream of bullets will end and you can go back and point blank the cannon.
  • Boss form 1. Bomb the third pattern with the crossing bullets. Bullets going left and right are always painful. For the fourth pattern, watch the blue bullets. Slowly make your way to the opposite side of the screen until there's a break in the blue bullets, then cut back immediately. If you hesitate, you'll die to the second wave of blue bullets.
  • Boss form 2. Point blank when the boss creates the ring of bits. Once they close in on you, use a bomb and dive into the boss. Classic DOJ boss-killing strategy.
  • Status update. 3 lives and 0 bombs. You'll get your extra life soon, though...


Stage 5

More brief notes:

  • Do not use the hyper until the first mid-boss. We'll need it to do a bullet-clearing trick.
  • Large spread-bullet enemy section. Use shot, even though there are large enemies. As long as you are attacking from about a half-screen's length from the large enemies, you'll kill them before they could fire a second round of spread bullets. I got a scare out of the small fries' bullets when I used the laser.
  • Four tanks. Kill the left three and leave the right one alive until before the first mid-boss. That way, you'll suppress the small blue enemies that fire tight spreads of pink bullets that are a pain to dodge.
  • Mid-boss 1. Count off six blue spreads, then fire off the hyper beam. Quickly move your aura to the boss and you'll absorb the rest of the bullets and keep the boss away from the bottom of the screen.
  • The hive. Very unpredictable, and on my magical run, I died only at the end of it. (I had no bombs and hypers here.) Destroy the big bees with lasers to access the bits and try to avoid the edges of the screens. You'll have to do cutbacks in the middle third of the screen. Good luck.
  • First pump on the right side. Just bomb it when things get too hairy. You'll have to face a wall of pink bullets plus a grab bag of other enemies otherwise.
  • Second pump on the right side. Stupid tanks kept firing bullets at me, and I couldn't gauge the angle. I used a bomb here, but this is supposed to be relatively easy.
  • Approach to the first row of big tanks. Try to go to the right and slowly make your way to the left. That's where the first tank appears and you can stream to the right from here. I was getting jumpy and scared and ended up at the right side of the screen, and there were bullets way too close to me, so I had to use a bomb.
  • Approach to that one pump in the middle. Big spread enemy on the left. Sweep left, right, left to meet the shotgun enemy on the right. Stay in the center for the enemy coming from the left or else you'll get cornered. But this is difficult regardless. Miraculously, I survived here.
  • Second row of big tanks. With the medium enemies, go left, right, left so that you'll start with the first tank on the left. Jumpy me started from the right. Somehow, I managed to keep it close to the lines of bullets that are moving almost horizontally, but then the shotgun enemies got me.
  • Those shotgun enemies again. For dying so late, I got to round up the last five enemies and kill them with my hyper beam and aura. I would typically use a bomb otherwise.
  • Status update. 2 lives, 2 bombs, and one more bomb icon floating about.
  • Boss form 1. Results wildly vary, but here's what went down. Attack 1: 1 bomb; attack 2: 2 bombs (remember, I had that bomb icon floating about); attack 3: 1 death and 1 bomb; final attack: 1 bomb and somehow dodged everything else to beat the game with one life to spare.


Where to go from here

Stages are long, so just setting stage-long goals like beating 2-1, then 2-2, and so on would be very ambitious. I'm testing whether to go in very small increments, moving one bomb to a later part of the game at a time or to go with larger increments, moving half my bomb distribution instead. My game ended in stage 2-2 near the flower box. If I want to improve in small increments, my goal might be to beat the 2-2 mid-boss, but it could get tiresome making only mere screen-lengths of progress at a time. If I want bigger increments, my goal might be to beat stage 2-2, but it may take a long time to get there. Stay tuned.
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Last edited by BER on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RQ: DOJ Play for Survival and not Hypering
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:55 am 


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Sick write-up, Bernard!
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 Post subject: Re: RQ: DOJ Play for Survival and not Hypering
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:56 pm 


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that's awesome, BER, thanks for sharing! :)
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