Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

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ASDR
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Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

You've probably heard that there now is a Switch ROM cart that works on all current Switch consoles unmodified like an original cart. Here:

Image

I didn't pay much attention to this at first as I have no interested in backups / jailbreaking on current systems. I only do that kind of stuff on systems that have long gone out of production / support.

But over the last few days I learned that this device might have a huge impact on people that buy used games, though.

Switch cartridges all have some kind of unique certificate and ID. This is for instance used for the 50c or whatever eShop reward that can be redeemed once for each physical cart. Nintendo apparently also bans cart IDs that have been dumped and put online or IDs that are used by multiple consoles simultaneously. So far, this has not been a huge issue. A jailbroken Switch or an emulator does not really care about certificates, valid IDs, checksums etc. From what I understand those things are just stripped out from the ROMs you'd find online and hacked consoles generally don't go online or transmit cart IDs to Nintendo, same for emulators, why would they, make sense, etc.

Now this changes with the MIG Switch. The big appeal of this device is that it works on any model of Switch without any modifications, jailbreak etc. It just looks like a legit cart to the console. So of course it needs a valid certificate and ID etc. because a real, unmodified system requires those to launch the games. The MIG Switch also comes with a dumper and the idea is that you dump your own games. So far so good.

The issue is of course that some people will dump their game collection and then sell it on eBay. Or they'll borrow games from friends or the local library and dump them before returning. Now you have unsuspecting people with legit, unmodified consoles and genuine physical games that are at risk of a ban. If the people using the same cart ID ever go online at the same time Nintendo has quite a few options they might use and apparently have used in the past:

- Put the cart ID on a blacklist so it'll never work again on an unmodified Switch
- Ban your console ID from connecting to the network, receiving updates, etc.
- Ban your Switch account, locking you out from multiplayer, title updates, subscriptions, digital content, backed up online saves etc.

I really don't know how they'll handle this. Even if they find some way to detect the MIG Switch cart and distinguish it from original carts this will likely be fixed in the next revision and just pushes the issue down the road. They could just give up. They could also start banning lots of completely innocent people. This would basically destroy the 2nd hand Switch market and tank resale value of games and make the option of used purchases really unattractive to people. Maybe Nintendo would actually appreciate that. If they do that there will certainly be lawsuits and eventually a class action, but that would take many years to resolve. In the meantime every used Switch game is a potential time bomb that could get itself, your console or your account banned at any time.

It's also a question how this will affect the Switch 2. Maybe Nintendo will remove backwards compatibility for physical games because they don't want pirated content and a potential security exploit vector present in their next console from day 1?

A rather grim outlook I'd say.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by SuperSpongo »

I grim outlook indeed!
I am following the discussion with great interest aswell. Maybe the number of instances will be small enough for Nintendo to offer a verification service of sorts so that the owner of the legit copy can reinstate his account or unban his profile. But I actually can't imagine how this would even work in practice lol. There are no (or not too many) official Nintendo stores after all.

I have read on Twitter that Nintendo also has a second method of verification for carts, but that did not look feasible at first glance so I don't remember the details.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Josh128 »

I wouldnt think Nintendo can legally prevent a legitimately purchased physical copy of a game from working. Doing that would seemingly open them to all kinds of legal / class action lawsuit trouble.

Can it affect an as of yet unreleased Switch 2? Certainly. But that ship has likely already sailed and I'd be surprised if they dont have a brand new EULA agreement that you have to click on that will take care of all that for Switch 2 or yet to be released Switch 1 physical game copies.

The death of physical game media will only be accelerated by things like this.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by RebeL9 »

Im not big fan of the way you pop out the cartridge each time to load the next game. I hope theres a better solution in the future.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

SuperSpongo wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:35 pm I have read on Twitter that Nintendo also has a second method of verification for carts, but that did not look feasible at first glance so I don't remember the details.
I don't think there's really anything they can do long term. Maybe the 1st or 2nd revision of the product will have some flaw, like that it responds a little slower or faster than a genuine cart, but that'll all be fixed soon. When companies have a way to detect cheating or piracy they generally keep quiet for a while and then mass ban everybody that has been using it instead of showing their hand early.

Any kind of scheme where you only ban the account of the 1st owner or something since he must've dumped the game and sold it on has a flaw, a scenario where it would punish the wrong person.
Josh128post_id=1545594 wrote:Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:18 pm I wouldnt think Nintendo can legally prevent a legitimately purchased physical copy of a game from working. Doing that would seemingly open them to all kinds of legal / class action lawsuit trouble.
Absolutely, I think if they start bricking consoles, accounts and games over this they will eventually be sued and a class action lawsuit will happen. Problem is just this will take 5 years to work itself out and in the end everybody will receive 50 bucks of eShop credit as a settlement or something like this. In the meantime the used game market will be effectively dead.
RebeL9 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:38 pm Can it affect an as of yet unreleased Switch 2? Certainly. But that ship has likely already sailed and I'd be surprised if they dont have a brand new EULA agreement that you have to click on that will take care of all that for Switch 2 or yet to be released Switch 1 physical game copies.
I don't really see what a EULA would help there and they can't implement a new security scheme on Switch 2 without rendering billions of existing cartridges useless. They can only drop physical backwards compatibility for Switch 2, screwing millions of legitimate game owners because of some pirate cart.
RebeL9 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:38 pm Im not big fan of the way you pop out the cartridge each time to load the next game. I hope theres a better solution in the future.
I'm not a big fan of how this product screws game developers and legit game owners alike. I don't give a shit about that cart and wish it wouldn't exist.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Josh128 »

My point about the EULA is that they could make you check a box with fine print that basically says : "If this game ID appears on two different hardware instances simultaneously on our network, the game ID will be blacklisted and a new one will have to be issued via 2FA blah blah/ whatever method before the game could be played again".

They could do this for a new console, or even just new games on the current console and if you check that box (which you will if you want to play it), they got you.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

Josh128 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:22 pm My point about the EULA is that they could make you check a box with fine print that basically says : "If this game ID appears on two different hardware instances simultaneously on our network, the game ID will be blacklisted and a new one will have to be issued via 2FA blah blah/ whatever method before the game could be played again".

They could do this for a new console, or even just new games on the current console and if you check that box (which you will if you want to play it), they got you.
I mean that's an interesting line of thought, but I don't see how you could make that work. In the case of a person dumping the game and then re-selling it, maybe this cycle happening multiple times, how would you know who has the legitimate copy and who has one on their ROM cart? And since Switch carts are not write enabled that new license / ID would be stored on one Switch console. At that point you might as well have a digital game since you can no longer sell your copy or lent it to a friend or share it among family members like with a normal physical game. And they'd also have to implement something for the existing Switch systems, unless they just give up and let people use dumped games with a ROM cart.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Guspaz »

Nintendo has a long history of banning large numbers of consoles, there's never been a class action lawsuit about it before. Knowing Nintendo, I suspect that they'd ban first and make users appeal and prove they own the physical cart later.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Rulumi »

3DS game cards also use an unique ID to be able to connect to online servers and the flashcards that emulated the game cards for it needed a game header from a legit game to be able to connect to Nintendo servers.
One from a game one owned and had was recommended to prevent bans. Do you have that problems when buying 3DS games?

If I understand well, mostly the difference with the 3DS with the ID matter, is that on the Switch, Nintendo should also be able to properly check for what game the ID was issued to, I don't think they could do that on the 3DS.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

Guspaz wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:43 pm Nintendo has a long history of banning large numbers of consoles, there's never been a class action lawsuit about it before. Knowing Nintendo, I suspect that they'd ban first and make users appeal and prove they own the physical cart later.
But those were presumably banned for legitimate reasons like piracy / online cheating, not totally innocent people that bought genuine used games on unmodified hardware.
Rulumi wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:35 pm 3DS game cards also use an unique ID to be able to connect to online servers and the flashcards that emulated the game cards for it needed a game header from a legit game to be able to connect to Nintendo servers.
One from a game one owned and had was recommended to prevent bans. Do you have that problems when buying 3DS games?

If I understand well, mostly the difference with the 3DS with the ID matter, is that on the Switch, Nintendo should also be able to properly check for what game the ID was issued to, I don't think they could do that on the 3DS.
Hm, I only ever heard about this in the context of the online features of some 3DS Pokemon games? Guess for 3DS it's not an issue anymore since all online services, eShop etc. have been shut down now.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Lander »

Well, seeing as ROM carts have been a regular occurrence in the handheld market for decades now, what precedents have been set by them thus far? And is this particular instance in any way meaningfully different aside from being the latest?

I don't see anything new to worry about. The necessary context to justify implementing more draconic measures has been around since before the inception of internet-connected consoles.
As such, I don't think it'll be a case of a sudden shocking change in response to a specific exploit, so much as the gradual normalizing creep that's already been going on for years by way of digital ownership, DRM, and consoles as online ecosystems.

The hardware exploitation / reverse-engineering cat-and-mouse game will continue as it always has, and the platform holders will likely continue to seek new security measures regardless of what the scene does. Doing so is a standardized best-practice, at this point.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

Lander wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:41 pm And is this particular instance in any way meaningfully different aside from being the latest?
Yes
Lander wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:41 pm I don't see anything new to worry about.
Because you don't understand the issue. Please read my initial post.
Lander wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:41 pm The necessary context to justify implementing more draconic measures has been around since before the inception of internet-connected consoles.
No
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Lander »

ASDR wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:53 pm Yes
Explain, then. The point of the question was to prompt discussion, not a one-word dismissal.
ASDR wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:53 pm Because you don't understand the issue. Please read my initial post.
I did, twice. Three times now, in fact.

Users dumping their collection and then selling it off is nothing new, and - as mentioned in the thread - neither are cart-unique IDs.
Indeed, the latter sounds as if its implementation has become more precise with Switch, which would suggest less likelihood of becoming victim of a blanket ban, not more.
ASDR wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:53 pm No
Substantiate your assertion.

The scene has been cracking open every console it can get its hands on, and playing back-and-forth with manufacturer revisions, for decades at this point. That, and the still-burgeoning state of the piracy scene, is context enough to justify much worse than we've ended up with, by my measure.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by RebeL9 »

ASDR wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:11 pm

I'm not a big fan of how this product screws game developers and legit game owners alike. I don't give a shit about that cart and wish it wouldn't exist.
Flashcarts and dumpers have been there since the dawn of software computing. This is nothing new. I'm more surpised that it has taken this long.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

RebeL9 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:48 pm This is nothing new
Lander wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:16 pm I did, twice. Three times now, in fact.

Users dumping their collection and then selling it off is nothing new
I tried to write my most concise and readable explanation of the issue in the initial post. If I failed to get the issue across there, I don't think I'll be able to explain it any better.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Rulumi »

ASDR wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:13 pm Hm, I only ever heard about this in the context of the online features of some 3DS Pokemon games? Guess for 3DS it's not an issue anymore since all online services, eShop etc. have been shut down now.
The header ID is needed to be able to connect with any game card to Nintendo's Online Play servers on the 3DS and of course Nintendo banned ID's present in public 3DS game dumps.

The first versions of flashcards like that for the 3DS were released in 2014, did people really had much problems with buying used 3DS games back then?
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

Rulumi wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:15 pm
ASDR wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:13 pm Hm, I only ever heard about this in the context of the online features of some 3DS Pokemon games? Guess for 3DS it's not an issue anymore since all online services, eShop etc. have been shut down now.
The header ID is needed to be able to connect with any game card to Nintendo's Online Play server on the 3DS and of course Nintendo banned ID's present in public 3DS game dumps.

The first versions of flashcards like that for the 3DS were released in 2014, did people really had much problems with buying used 3DS games back then?
I guess I never paid much attention to this since I rarely if ever played online on my portable consoles, I've just heard about it in the context of online play and specifically the Pokemon games. The difference I fear here is that every game needs to have its full cert / ID present to work at all with the MIG Switch cart. Like you can't just download some ROM set with stripped ID from the internet archive and put it on your flash cart and at least play offline games, you actually need to rip your legit Switch cartridges. I generally think 99% of the people that use Flash carts/modchips/ODEs just get known good dumps from the internet instead of ripping their own while with the MIG cart you basically need to do that. So that's why I think there's a much higher chance of getting a game from the used market which will be blacklisted / cause issues with your system / account. For a Switch being potentially completely cut off from title updates and your digital library is also a bigger deal than previous systems. Also let's not forget that in the grand scheme of things per-media IDs are still a rather niche concept that isn't an issue with the vast majority of physical libraries. Most other systems either don't have unique IDs or never used them for that purpose or at least didn't have any motivation for pirates not to strip out the ID.

I just like to keep my current consoles legit. Once the Switch is discontinued and unsupported I'll eventually jailbreak it and dive into what the community has done with the platform. It would suck to be forced into that stuff against my will because my games / system / account gets banned due to some assholes selling dumped games.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by bobrocks95 »

I guess it all comes down to, is there really no way for someone to dump their cartridge and then share it online in some way with the MIG? I would expect most people looking to buy this think they'll be able to go online and download ROMs.

If ROMs that include the cartridge IDs start getting out, they're likely to be centralized from a couple core dumper groups that people download from, rather than it becoming common to buy a random used game and find out it was dumped by someone.

Unless it really is different than the 3DS?
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

bobrocks95 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:26 pm I guess it all comes down to, is there really no way for someone to dump their cartridge and then share it online in some way with the MIG? I would expect most people looking to buy this think they'll be able to go online and download ROMs.
The only appeal of this product is that it works with an unmodified Switch, right? If you're Switch was already jailbroken, you wouldn't need it. It could just run ROMs without any security check from the internal SD card and you'd have no use for storing games on a flash cart. But an unmodified Switch obviously needs a valid cart with all the usual security features presented, otherwise it wouldn't run it. If Nintendo's signing keys or whatever are leaked or brute forced then you could generate valid certs / IDs etc., but for now you need unique data from a real cart.

I guess you could keep your Switch in airplane mode and download ROMs somebody has shared with the cert / ID intact? I don't know if Switch games are tied to a minimum OS version, or if you can update the OS offline like you can share title updates or how you'd handle games with mandatory updates / downloads and such, but maybe it could be done?
bobrocks95 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:26 pm If ROMs that include the cartridge IDs start getting out, they're likely to be centralized from a couple core dumper groups that people download from, rather than it becoming common to buy a random used game and find out it was dumped by someone.
I agree, I assume all current ROM sets have the ID stripped since jailbroken consoles / emulators don't need them, but of course new sets with a valid ID could pop up. Those IDs would be instantly banned and will likely get your account / console in trouble as well, which is a good motivation to dump your own games.
bobrocks95 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:26 pm Unless it really is different than the 3DS?
To me it boils down to a few things why I suspect this will be worse

- This product requires a valid cert / ID, for the 3DS it was a only required for multiplayer and apparently only resulted in a ban in multiplayer
- The more tech savvy people are already running emulators and jailbroken Switches. This appeals primarily to the casual crowd. No need to solder shit into your Switch, no need to find ROMs on the darkwebz, just dump your carts and put them on your new flash cart, done. You can share the MIG like a real game cart. Those folks might not understand the issue with reselling their games or passing their ROMs around.

I really hope that Nintendo either has some magic way of preventing this cart from working (unlikely in the mid to long term), figures out some way to not unjustly ban legitimate users and systems or just gives up :/ Maybe the latter since they probably don't need any bad press around the Switch 2 launch from users getting their shit banned. Also hope this won't cause them to abandon or encumber any Switch 2 backwards compatibility plans.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by bobrocks95 »

Fair points I think. I really don't know what size the market would be for this as far as the crowd actually dumping carts for it. I am thinking most likely scenario regardless of how it works is Nintendo gets litigious and tries to block sales of it.

Are game certs/IDs/whatever else verifiable from serial codes or anything printed on the game itself? I remember a long time ago I was able to recover my Steam account by sending a picture of a game I owned on disc (lucky me) with its serial number and my username visible in the photo. Maybe you could appeal a ban if you bought a used game that got your console messed up... Or they won't care.......
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by fernan1234 »

Also think not much will come out of this as far as the Switch itself is concern, Switch 2 is a different matter.

I think there will be no crazy unprecedented stuff. The most I see Nintendo doing is a few online-access ban waves like with the 3DS, but wouldn't surprise me if not even that.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

I just checked and my local library actually has Switch games on offer, that could become a real issue soon ;-)
bobrocks95 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:19 am Fair points I think. I really don't know what size the market would be for this as far as the crowd actually dumping carts for it. I am thinking most likely scenario regardless of how it works is Nintendo gets litigious and tries to block sales of it.
Yeah, I don't know how this will go. I hope either some combination of legal action, technical measures and lack of appeal of this solution will make this thing a big failure or it blows up so big that Nintendo simply can't go around and ban like 100k legit consoles.
bobrocks95 wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:19 am Are game certs/IDs/whatever else verifiable from serial codes or anything printed on the game itself? I remember a long time ago I was able to recover my Steam account by sending a picture of a game I owned on disc (lucky me) with its serial number and my username visible in the photo. Maybe you could appeal a ban if you bought a used game that got your console messed up... Or they won't care.......
There's a code on the back of Switch carts and I think you can determine the revision from it, like if you want a cart with the latest patches on it, but I'm not sure it's unique or if Nintendo has some kind of database that would link the cart serial to the cart ID.

I remember when the PSP Go came out Sony contemplated some kind of program where you could send in your games to get a digital license for the disc-less system, but ultimately abandoned it. I don't think Nintendo will go for something like this, the logistics of making something that's secure enough but not too labor intensive for them probably won't work out. My first though was there's going to be some generative AI thing that'll generate pictures of today's newspaper with a game cart on it or something like that :D
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by DejahThoris »

Rulumi wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:35 pm 3DS game cards also use an unique ID to be able to connect to online servers and the flashcards that emulated the game cards for it needed a game header from a legit game to be able to connect to Nintendo servers.
One from a game one owned and had was recommended to prevent bans. Do you have that problems when buying 3DS games?

If I understand well, mostly the difference with the 3DS with the ID matter, is that on the Switch, Nintendo should also be able to properly check for what game the ID was issued to, I don't think they could do that on the 3DS.
Yeah, this is just the same thing as with 3DS, nothing to worry about here. Not any more so than we did on 3DS in any case. It's just random fear-mongering from the internet at large about things they don't fully understand (not accusing OP, just saying they probably got swept up in it too).
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by SuperSpongo »

I guess the only way I see is leniency:

If they can track a unique console ID and cross reference that to the pirated cart ID, they could flag that console for using the pirated cart (or the one original). They allow this for, say, the first 100 console IDs and start banning everybody else.
That would still mostly allow a used game market but prevent tens of thousands of people playing with a potential scene-release online.

I remember a colleague of mine buying Microsoft Windows and Office keys from an ebay seller. The Windows key worked, but the Office key would not activate his software, so he called Microsoft support. They told him that his particular Office Key had already been used something like 30 thousand times and Microsoft locked it. Out of curiosity, he gave them his Windows key as well and it too had already been activated more than a thousand times :shock: :lol:
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

DejahThoris wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:49 am Yeah, this is just the same thing as with 3DS, nothing to worry about here. Not any more so than we did on 3DS in any case. It's just random fear-mongering from the internet at large about things they don't fully understand (not accusing OP, just saying they probably got swept up in it too).
I think the issue is increased here since on the 3DS (unless I got this terribly wrong) it only applies to online play. Your only motivation for keeping your cart IDs around before selling them is online play and the issue only arises for subsequent users of the cart with online play. On the Switch you can read a lot of forum reports about system bans even if people were careful and had their device in airplane mode most of the time, like Nintendo keeping track of game IDs even offline. I think it's way more likely to get screwed here and the situation on the 3DS was already far from ideal.
SuperSpongo wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:14 am I guess the only way I see is leniency:

If they can track a unique console ID and cross reference that to the pirated cart ID, they could flag that console for using the pirated cart (or the one original). They allow this for, say, the first 100 console IDs and start banning everybody else.
That would still mostly allow a used game market but prevent tens of thousands of people playing with a potential scene-release online.

I remember a colleague of mine buying Microsoft Windows and Office keys from an ebay seller. The Windows key worked, but the Office key would not activate his software, so he called Microsoft support. They told him that his particular Office Key had already been used something like 30 thousand times and Microsoft locked it. Out of curiosity, he gave them his Windows key as well and it too had already been activated more than a thousand times :shock: :lol:
Something like this seems sensible and what I am hoping for. Like only banning game IDs that are actually in big public dumps and used by many people. I think it would really suck if we'd see systems / accounts banned for a single infraction, like the second two devices are using the same game ID at the same time it's game over. I've always seen issues with sellers trying to flip banned systems but at least there you can immediately see that it's a banned ID and hopefully open an eBay case, but here the issue could occur weeks or months later with no recurse.

On a timeline long enough all my Switches will be jailbroken and modded and this issue will no longer matter but I'd really like to keep my Switch unmodded till Nintendo abandons the platform and I'd really hate my account to be banned as I'd want to keep using it with the Switch 2.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Kez »

I don't think it will be a huge issue personally. Nintendo will surely be aware of the PR risks of banning thousands of legitimate users. I wonder how big the install base of this flash cart will even really be. I don't think it'll be like an R4DS situation, where a huge proportion of users ended up with them. Most people already invested in the Switch ecosystem won't want to risk a ban, especially with how online everything is nowadays compared to back then. It also doesn't seem particularly user-friendly, for now at least.

The Switch 2 is very late in its development at this point - I doubt they will make any major changes off the back of this news. More than any other platform-holder, Nintendo must get a large chunk of revenue from physical game sales and I'd be amazed if they move in a digital only direction for the Switch 2. Assuming it is backwards compatible, I could see them making some last minute tweaks to try and prevent the use of this flash cart.. but dropping backwards compatibility altogether would be a risky move, given the ubiquity of the Switch I think it would be a big disappointment for many people and could cost Nintendo significantly more than a bit of piracy.

I am generally all for people finding ways to exploit these systems, given they will eventually all be completely abandoned like the Wii, Wii U, 3DS, etc. before it. It's developments like this that keep these old systems relevant. Huge companies like Nintendo will always find some reason or other to engage in anti-consumer practices.
Last edited by Kez on Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ZellSF »

You're saying someone will buy this and the dumper, dump the game and resell it and you think both cartridges (or systems) would be banned?

Then there's no sense in having your own ID/keys/etc in the first place. Why would they spend the extra 68$ to buy the dumper when they can just download a copy from someone else?
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Kez
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by Kez »

On the 3DS at least, it was possible to extract headers from one cartridge and inject them into the flashcart to go online or whatever. I could see a scenario where people essentially dump the headers for every cartridge they can get their hands on and use them/share them to get online. It could end up being like an arms race where Nintendo bans a particular ID and then people switch to using a different one, and over time these dumped carts could make their way into regular circulation and end up getting innocent users banned.

Still, this is all very hypothetical. I could see a few people being negatively impacted by this, but not a widespread issue. All this stuff would take quite a while to really spin up and the Switch will be a lot less relevant in a year or two. I just don't believe this MIG cart will gain enough adoption for a significant number of cartridge IDs to be compromised in this way.
spmbx
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by spmbx »

I have absolutely 0 knowledge of this stuff, so i'm guessing generating some random id's is out of the question? That would still not defeat the problem that nintendo might keep lists of what id(ranges) are valid or invalid i guess.
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ASDR
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Re: Impact of MIG Switch ROM cart on legit games / consoles

Post by ASDR »

ZellSF wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:45 pm You're saying someone will buy this and the dumper, dump the game and resell it and you think both cartridges (or systems) would be banned?

Then there's no sense in having your own ID/keys/etc in the first place. Why would they spend the extra 68$ to buy the dumper when they can just download a copy from someone else?
I agree that it doesn't make much sense, but this product is aimed at people for which the existing, superior methods are to complicated. The whole idea is that this is a much simpler solution. Don't need to modify your console, don't need to hunt ROMs etc. So a lot of the target audience might not get the whole cart ID issue. Or they think they'll keep their Switch offline and then their little brother borrows their flashcart or something like that.
Kez wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:17 pm On the 3DS at least, it was possible to extract headers from one cartridge and inject them into the flashcart to go online or whatever. I could see a scenario where people essentially dump the headers for every cartridge they can get their hands on and use them/share them to get online. It could end up being like an arms race where Nintendo bans a particular ID and then people switch to using a different one, and over time these dumped carts could make their way into regular circulation and end up getting innocent users banned.
Yes, I think that's the same here, with one difference. Right now it seems Nintendo does not check that the cert / ID matches the game, so any genuine & non-banned one will work. But people assume that this will eventually stop working. So you can't just go to the local library and dump all their games and keep using them to play one game online or something like that.

btw, I remember reading that during the 3DS era people were buying consoles on Amazon and returning them after dumping the system keys so they could get their system unbanned, so yeah, this could get ugly.
Kez wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:17 pm Still, this is all very hypothetical. I could see a few people being negatively impacted by this, but not a widespread issue. All this stuff would take quite a while to really spin up and the Switch will be a lot less relevant in a year or two. I just don't believe this MIG cart will gain enough adoption for a significant number of cartridge IDs to be compromised in this way.
I certainly hope so!
spmbx wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:25 pm I have absolutely 0 knowledge of this stuff, so i'm guessing generating some random id's is out of the question? That would still not defeat the problem that nintendo might keep lists of what id(ranges) are valid or invalid i guess.
I'm no cryptologist, but I assume generating these certificates or IDs is like making a specific block of data that matches a gives hash, think like mining a Bitcoin but way harder. So unless some key cryptographic piece of math gets an exploit or some signing key leaks, I don't think this will be feasible.
Kez wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:39 pm I don't think it will be a huge issue personally. Nintendo will surely be aware of the PR risks of banning thousands of legitimate users. I wonder how big the install base of this flash cart will even really be. I don't think it'll be like an R4DS situation, where a huge proportion of users ended up with them. Most people already invested in the Switch ecosystem won't want to risk a ban, especially with how online everything is nowadays compared to back then. It also doesn't seem particularly user-friendly, for now at least.
It's kind of a if your bank account gets hacked, you have a problem, if all bank accounts get hacked, the bank has a problem type scenario. If this only happens to a few unlucky people they might be screwed, but if it becomes widespread then there's no way Nintendo will keep banning people.
Kez wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:39 pm I am generally all for people finding ways to exploit these systems, given they will eventually all be completely abandoned like the Wii, Wii U, 3DS, etc. before it. It's developments like this that keep these old systems relevant. Huge companies like Nintendo will always find some reason or other to engage in anti-consumer practices.
The way my personal ethics here work is that as long as a system is actively supported, manufactured, has game releases, multiplayer / eShop is online I play by the rules. But the second the platform holder abandons it it's all fair game and I truly appreciate all the work the community does to improve and restore these old systems. I think doing it on a current system is really unethical as it screws over game developers, platform holders, online gamers due to cheating, legitimate game owners due to the issues discussed here. The people behind the MIG are not heroes that save us from Nintendo's oppression or indifference, they're just profiteers making a buck on the back of game devs and legit game owners. In 5 years this is all fair game IMHO, but right now it feels shitty.
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