No interest / demand for a PS2 ODE?

[kamiboy]

Ach so, good to know. Well, I tried to convert a few ISOs into ZSOs and launch them via USB, but to my confusion, while some ISOs worked fine, others would not show up on the list, as if they weren't even there. Then again, I am pretty sure one of the ISO's wasn't showing up either.

As such I was inclined to give up on ZSO anyway, the last thing I want is to spend hours transferring a ton ZSOs using HDLdump only to have half of them not even work. The space I would save is not worth the hassle, and from my experiments the compression ratio was quite underwhelming regardless.

I guess if I did go the exfat route, by booting from a memory card, instead of having self booting hdd, then zso files should work just fine from the HDD, since it is treated as a USB device anyway. I am almost tempted to nix the neat self booting HDD route and go for exfat, it is much less of a hassle, and it seems memory card booting process is much faster than HDD booting...

[Lamprey]

For the PS2 Pat is there a speed difference between the Optical Drive interface vs the HD interface? I can't remember if they are the same on the PS2.

Not sure what you're talking about here. HDD vs Optical drive, HDD is much faster. Much faster loading times, assuming the game accepts it and doesn't need a compatibility mode.

Theoretical comparison between the HDD and optical drive interface if a ODE was made that could read faster than the stock drive? Not sure if that information is available anywhere.

I was wondering if the interfaces are different speeds. I get a HD is faster, but it can only go as fast as the interface allows.

As an example, the orginal XBOX use an IDE interface that both the HD and Optical Drive are connected to. So, in thoery, the interface would allow for the same speeds on both. So, an ODE for the Xbox would have all the speed benefits as the HD.

I can't prove it, but I thought I had read someplace that the optical drive on the PS2 is using the same conrroller as the HD, but has more limited channels (speed) than the HD. If this is true, then an ODE, although convenient, wouldn't have the same load speeds as the HD. Again, I'm not sure this is true, hence why I posed the question.

[fernan1234]

OPL lets you select different UDMA and MDMA modes, the fastest one being significantly faster at loading speeds compared to a healthy disc drive. The lowest MDMA mode is sort of equivalent to a perfectly functioning disc drive (and a few games require this slowest mode to work without issues).

[tongshadow]

I dont understand the need of wanting every mod for every console. First we had the silly PicoPSUs that are nowhere as good as a properly engineered OEM PSU, and now we want ODEs that take away features from the console and perform worse than solutions that have existed for decades...

I agree. Sometimes we get preoccupied or distracted over trivial matters. An extension of the law of diminishing returns is negative utility.

However, a PS2 ODE is not one such undertaking. For some of us (me included) the current options are not acceptable. While having a laser repaired/replaced is a very viable option, they have a shorter lifespan and you still need to find someone with experience to troubleshoot / install. The ease of use and convenience of ODEs (like flash carts) are not to be taken for granted.

I have few pet peeves among your current "solutions." First, I must have been living in a cave if they've been around for "decades." I'm not a huge fan of external devices (looking at slim and not phat variants). The HDD/SDD you mention apply only to specific models of the PS2. The rest will require advanced modifications. I also don't like tinkering with menus, settings, etc. As much as possible, I like my setup to be plug and play. Yes, we will most likely (but not necessarily) lose optical drive functionality (e.g. Satiator, upcoming Flippy Drive, SSDS3, among others) but that is a fair trade-off. While I occasionally watch DVDs using my PS2, it's not the most optimal thing to do.

While I respect your opinion regarding a PS2 ODE and why it doesn't appeal to you, I believe it's something that would serve the community well and that is long overdue.

Interesting perspective, but creating a PS2 ODE isnt a simple task would likely be more expensive than the XStation, the best ODE solution for the PS1.
Anyone willing to undertake this ordeal will need to that keep in mind.

As for the PS2 Slim you have a good point, however a more interesting solution is in the making...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PxuZu9F5pw

[ZellSF]

I'm not watching all of a 48 minute video to check, but that isn't anything new?

It's been known for ages that the early slims (and ONLY the early ones) still have IDE headers that are usable, but it's very complicated and there isn't really a reason to do it.

It's just cheaper and faster to replace your slim with a fat.

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

I'd love an ODE, especially for the slim. OPL is fine, but an ODE seems like a much neater solution than an old router and HDD sat behind my PS2. Also, because I have limited space, I sometimes switch my consoles around, so it's always a bit of a pain to set up the PS2 again, compared to say my Dreamcast which I just plug in and it's ready to go. OPL compatibility is very good now, but it doesn't seem quite as perfect as the ODEs I own and in particular, no option for PS1 games. My slim has scratched a couple of discs in the past and even though I've replaced the ribbon, I'm still wary of using originals, so I mostly just use the drive to run burned copies of PS1 games and the occasional PS2 game that's incompatible. I replaced the laser 3 years ago as well, but it's never seemed as good as it once was (could be something I did wrong)

[tongshadow]

I'm not watching all of a 48 minute video to check, but that isn't anything new?

It's been known for ages that the early slims (and ONLY the early ones) still have IDE headers that are usable, but it's very complicated and there isn't really a reason to do it.

It's just cheaper and faster to replace your slim with a fat.

Not available as a product, gotta go through alot of hoops to install it.

[ZellSF]

The video you linked to doesn't seem to indicate some more readily available product is coming either?

For early slims, you need to solder all the IDE headers and that's never going to be a simple solution.

[tongshadow]

The video you linked to doesn't seem to indicate some more readily available product is coming either?

For early slims, you need to solder all the IDE headers and that's never going to be a simple solution.

Ah ok, I sent the wrong video, this is what we're looking for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e30VG3T3Yxc

[ZellSF]

Sure that's a new product, but it seems mostly an easier solution for people who were already doing these sorts of mods, not exactly a new solution.

[tongshadow]

Sure that's a new product, but it seems mostly an easier solution for people who were already doing these sorts of mods, not exactly a new solution.

By that logic, RGB boards for the SNES Jr./N64 arent new solutions either because it's mostly an easier solution for people who were already doing these sorts of mods.

[gray117]

Effort to make the thing vs. cost vs. people that actually want one who don't have a hd setup...

I've little doubt someone's probably mostly done something like this. But turning out a product and supporting it is another thing...

... The irony is that if one existed around the right price it could really take off just because of the amount of PS2 owners...

[ZellSF]

A fat PS2 is dirt cheap though, and getting anyone to do this mod definitely isn't going to be even if it is slightly easier than before. It's a very niche product. I would be surprised if anyone even would offer to do this.

[gray117]

I dunno there's probably enough of us idiots out there to make it worthwhile just because we like it - not that we need it ... like the PS1 ode market for example.

It's totally beholden to the creator side of it though. Across everything there's only a handful of people even thinking of creating any given ode, much less producing one for the (niche) masses.

[ZellSF]

I should clarify that I was talking about the PS2 M2 solution, not a potential PS2 ODE solution. Which I think would have potentially more mass appeal because of PS1 compatibility.

[drncurry]

I should clarify that I was talking about the PS2 M2 solution, not a potential PS2 ODE solution. Which I think would have potentially more mass appeal because of PS1 compatibility.

Didn't see anyone else point out in this thread that a used PS3 slim with CFW can emulate most PS2 games and would be cheaper than buying a PS2 + ODE. Plus it has several advantages over the PS2. Wireless controllers + HDMI for example.

A better solution would be the PS3 that has hardware emulation, but those go for a premium these days.

[ZellSF]

A softmodded PS2 can use DS3/DS4 controllers through OPL (needs a bluetooth dongle) and there are wireless controllers made for it. There's also a HDMI mod though the component output is good enough that I consider it a waste of money.

The PS3's HDMI output for PS2 games doesn't support 480i passthrough (it can do it, just not through HDMI), so if you're unhappy with its deinterlacing then it's not a good option. The hardware emulation ones are also very unreliable.

[ASDR]

Using a PS3 for demanding software emulation seems like a bad idea. Its architecture is rather weak for that. You'd probably be better off with something like an Intel NUC or even an RPi5. Even the PS3s with HW compatibility add a frame of lag, it's probably quite bad running a SW emulator on weak hardware. PS2 emulation is far from perfect even on fast machines anyway. Why settle for any of this if real HW is still cheap, reliable, easily jailbroken and plentiful.

I still think the obvious solution is to just get a 7000 series PS2 slim for ~50EUR, make yourself an FMCB card (or ask a friend), plug in the network cable, put games on a network share on your computer/NAS/RPi/Router and use OPL. That is dirt cheap, has >95% compatibility, about as comfortable of a solution you could ask for and allows for disc fallback, if needed.

[drncurry]

All great points. Mostly adding to the conclusion that a lot are drawing in this thread. There are a few more cost effective solutions that make justifying the development of an ODE hard.

Everything you're stating about PS3's PS2 emulation is unsubstantiated. The software emulator used on the PS3 is the one developed by Sony for the PS2 classic games on PSN (ps2_netemu). Not a port of a homebrew emulator. The list below shows a 84% compatibility. This does NOT include games that report minor issues. If you include the minor issue games, you get 95% compatibility. https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/PS2_Class ... ility_List

As far as the hardware emulation, I couldn't find anything to support the 1 frame of lag. There is some documentation on the EE emulation (https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/PS2_Emula ... ation_Bugs) specific to certain games. I couldn't find anything about the early PS3s though (ps2_emu). I'm doubtful as the early CECHA and CECHB ps3s have all the important PS2 hardware; EE, RS (ps2_emu). While the later CECHC has the RS and the EE is software emulated (ps2_gxemu). (https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/PS2_GXemu ... ility_List) but its not as complete a list as the ps2_netemu.

[ASDR]

Oh, I didn't know Sony's emu was used with a jailbroken PS3, makes sense, would've been rather tight otherwise with the weak PPE. But that one also has well documented lag. I wouldn't put too much trust in those compatibility lists, those always just mean 'bugs we've found / confirmed'. Who knows how many of those work 100% games have game breaking bugs or annoying glitches 30h into the game. Also I assume the source for ps2_netemu is not available and it'll not be improved further?

It's interesting, Fudoh's page actually lists 2 frames of input lag for 480i PS2 games on hardware backwards compatible PS3s. Ah well, those are anyway a complete pain in the ass to keep running. Just because you have original hardware in a console also does not mean there is no lag. DS has GBA hardware, there's still additional lag over playing GBA on an actual GBA.

In any case, buying one retro console to software emulate another retro console is probably not a good idea, especially in the case of the PS2 which is cheap, available and doesn't have any massive reliability issues.

[drncurry]

Oh, I didn't know Sony's emu was used with a jailbroken PS3, makes sense, would've been rather tight otherwise with the weak PPE. But that one also has well documented lag. I wouldn't put too much trust in those compatibility lists, those always just mean 'bugs we've found / confirmed'. Who knows how many of those work 100% games have game breaking bugs or annoying glitches 30h into the game. Also I assume the source for ps2_netemu is not available and it'll not be improved further?

It's interesting, Fudoh's page actually lists 2 frames of input lag for 480i PS2 games on hardware backwards compatible PS3s. Ah well, those are anyway a complete pain in the ass to keep running. Just because you have original hardware in a console also does not mean there is no lag. DS has GBA hardware, there's still additional lag over playing GBA on an actual GBA.

In any case, buying one retro console to software emulate another retro console is probably not a good idea, especially in the case of the PS2 which is cheap, available and doesn't have any massive reliability issues.

The criteria for each game is listed at the top of the wiki. I am inclined to believe their findings because this was a commercially made emulator. The ps2_netemu seems well researched. I don't believe the source has been made available. There are only hacks to utilize ps2_netemu when launching an ISO or loading from disc.

Fudoh's page? link? I found this site because of the CRT RGB mods. Not up to speed with the community. Interesting is seeing what their findings were. What is the measurement of lag? Time between the controller input press and the output of the screen?

Of course, there's a lot of variables that go into emulation even if the original hardware is present. I looked up the architecture for each system, but I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to draw any real conclusion. The interesting thing about the PS2 emulation on the early PS3s is the PS2 has its own ram. I would imagine from this the PS2 emulation is allowed to run self-contained. Compare that to the DS which is most likely using the extra CPU to run instructions, but then the output must still be intercepted and the output determined. What I don't understand about the PS2 emulation is how the rendered output gets to the screen. Does it go through the PCI bus and get rendered by the RSX? Even then, how does it get to the analog outputs. Does the RSX support analog natively or is there some conversion between HDMI and analog happening internal to the PS3? I wasn't able to find this information.


https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/nintendo-ds/


https://www.copetti.org/writings/consol ... station-3/

[tongshadow]

Aside from PS1 emulation on the PS2 not being perfect, people prefer to play on the original hardware rather than relying on backwards compatibility.
Case in point: The Nintendo Wii. It boasts perfect GameCube emulation and yet we dont see a decrease in demand for GameCube mods and accessories. Why is that? Every cable, ODE and HDMI mods are cheaper on the Wii and yield the same results.

[Osirus]

I dunno, maybe the Gamecube aesthetic is just more appealing. As far as I know the Wii more or less is Gamecube hardware and doesn't use emulation for backwards compatibility. Even I find myself gravitating towards a Gamecube even though I have a Wii modded to boot ISOs from an SD card.

[Rulumi]

The Wii is in a lot of ways is a more powerful GameCube with new security and I/O.

The CPU is mostly the same but more powerful (higher clocks), the GPU is mostly the same but more powerful (higher clocks), the DSP is still here, the GameCube fonts are still on the system hardware. Apart from the new I/O and security controlled by the new IOP, which resides inside the same package as the GPU, the memory layout it's also a bit different, the original GameCube's 24MB of 1T-SRAM is still present as MEM1 and ARAM is replaced by 64MB of GDDR3 RAM (MEM2).

With BC and MIOS present with the purpouse of switching to GameCube mode, the system can take care of taking back the system to pretty much what a GameCube was: lower the CPU and GPU clocks, hide the Wii mode only new hardware that isn't required, the I/O is remapped. Also MEM2 is allocated to 16MB like how the GameCube ARAM was, and used to simulate/emulate the GameCube's ARAM I think.

[ZellSF]

Part of the appeal of the Gamecube is the Game Boy Player, cheap native GBA consolized hardware.

Why is that? Every cable, ODE and HDMI mods are cheaper on the Wii and yield the same results.

For a most people HDMI mods aren't cheaper for the Wii. Lots of people would need to hire someone to install it for them (really expensive) and many of the ones that don't actually value their time appropriately (HDMI kit + installation time = more expensive than plug and play Gamecube adapters). It's only cheaper for those who don't value their own time at all. Even then it's practically the same price.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm using the OPL/HDD method for my PS2, and it's pretty good.

However, I would be really interested in an ODE for a slim model.

[drncurry]

Aside from PS1 emulation on the PS2 not being perfect, people prefer to play on the original hardware rather than relying on backwards compatibility.
Case in point: The Nintendo Wii. It boasts perfect GameCube emulation and yet we dont see a decrease in demand for GameCube mods and accessories. Why is that? Every cable, ODE and HDMI mods are cheaper on the Wii and yield the same results.

I agree somewhat. For me, there is a line between convenience and quality. My PS3 is the original CECHA which has the hardware emulation and having everything in one box is very convenient. As long as the 90nm RSX doesn't crap the bed on me. That being said, I will yield my point about the ps3_netemu software emulator. I experimented with it over the weekend and found it a bit of a pain to get working. I definitely can see how an ODE would be more appealing, at least from a convenience standpoint of not having to screw around the ISOs to make them launch in software emu mode.

[bobrocks95]

As long as the 90nm RSX doesn't crap the bed on me.

It absolutely will, if you care about it you should invest in a delid or chip swap.

[ASDR]

As long as the 90nm RSX doesn't crap the bed on me.

It absolutely will, if you care about it you should invest in a delid or chip swap.

Mine still works after all these years but the console will go into server-grade-fan-noise mode just sitting on the XMB. I guess the paste under the heatspreader for RSX/Cell must be bone dry. And the caps will likely die soon as well. Just not worth the effort keeping that thing alive IMHO.

[drncurry]

As long as the 90nm RSX doesn't crap the bed on me.

It absolutely will, if you care about it you should invest in a delid or chip swap.

Bought it new in Jan 2007 and its seen moderate use since then. Honestly, I'm just as surprised. I don't think I'll delid. I was looking into water cooling, but the blocks are no longer available and the AMD blocks I have are too large.

Definitely will do a 40nm swap if it fails, but I'll run it as it until then.

Mine still works after all these years but the console will go into server-grade-fan-noise mode just sitting on the XMB. I guess the paste under the heatspreader for RSX/Cell must be bone dry. And the caps will likely die soon as well. Just not worth the effort keeping that thing alive IMHO.

Agreed with your assessment. Mine had similar symptoms and I re-pasted it last weekend which fixed it. RSX went from 70C idle to 30-40C idle.