20th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[Herr Schatten]

As usual, I only did minor changes to my vote. Nexzr and Cotton Rock'n'Roll are the only new entries in my list. The rest got merely shuffled around a bit.

Notably, R-Type Final 2 dropped a bit in my esteem, and that’s explicitly due to the new stages that were added to the main course. I feel that, while the stages themselves are fine, they don’t really fit into the game's difficulty progression and the places where the enemies that drop the orbs for the branching paths appear are awkward. I'd have been perfectly happy if they had just added the missing path with two new final stages to the meaningless fourth orb at the original crossroads instead.

[Sengoku Strider]

As usual, I only did minor changes to my vote. Nexzr and Cotton Rock'n'Roll are the only new entries in my list. The rest got merely shuffled around a bit.

I think Nexzr's caravan mode alone is good enough to get it on my list this time around.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Minor changes only for me, I think. The last couple of years have been challenging from a mental health perspective, a side effect gaming-wise means I've tended to stick with familar titles and drop anything that doesn't click fairly quickly. Or simply get distracted with something else. So while I've played plenty of new/different eligible games, I've not given many a fair crack - Mushihimesama (previously dented by the death of my gaming PC), GG Aleste 3 and a lot on the Darius compilations are amongst those which have fallen victim.

On the up now though, and the familiar stuff has gotten plenty of attention (thanks to a new Saturn and some fresh Switch ports). DOJ is probably going to make it in the end, but the port arrived too late to spend enough time with ahead of this year's vote.

Perhaps with all this Toaplan re-releasing, Taito can give us the Gekirindan re-release we all need (even if you don't know it yet )

[Meriscan]

As usual, I only did minor changes to my vote.

Minor changes only for me, I think.

Same for me. I've bumped up a few new favorites like Raiden DX and Batsugun, the list is mostly the same as the one I did in 2022.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I did think I saw more people list Progear in their submissions than usual. At least for now. While the game hasn't seen much activity on the forum, there are a lot of Progear streamers on twitch right now. Mainly Wes and Omkol, but others show up too. I hope to see it make the top 25 this year. It's very underrated in my opinion compared to the rest of the cave library.

[Steven]

It makes me sad that Merican and I are the only people who love 1941 Counter Attack (so far). It's an awesome game! Go play it!

Notably, R-Type Final 2 dropped a bit in my esteem, and that’s explicitly due to the new stages that were added to the main course. I feel that, while the stages themselves are fine, they don’t really fit into the game's difficulty progression and the places where the enemies that drop the orbs for the branching paths appear are awkward. I'd have been perfectly happy if they had just added the missing path with two new final stages to the meaningless fourth orb at the original crossroads instead.

The way they implemented the paths to those new stages is definitely somewhat awkward, and I too am disappointed that that fourth orb remains unused. The new stage 4.1 has a level of difficulty that is suitable for a final stage; it's WAY harder than any other stage in the game, and yet it shows up at the halfway point. I don't even want to imagine what it is like to play it on R-Typer 3.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I did think I saw more people list Progear in their submissions than usual. At least for now. While the game hasn't seen much activity on the forum, there are a lot of Progear streamers on twitch right now. Mainly Wes and Omkol, but others show up too. I hope to see it make the top 25 this year. It's very underrated in my opinion compared to the rest of the cave library.

Well, it wasn't available outside of emulation until the Capcom stadium released in 2021

[Nahar]

For me, I really tried to balance historical prominence and fun had while playing. It's a hard balance, I know, and I may do some minor changes still, but geez, to choose only 25...

[Some-Mist]

As usual, I only did minor changes to my vote.

Minor changes only for me, I think.

Same for me. I've bumped up a few new favorites like Raiden DX and Batsugun, the list is mostly the same as the one I did in 2022.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I did think I saw more people list Progear in their submissions than usual. At least for now. While the game hasn't seen much activity on the forum, there are a lot of Progear streamers on twitch right now. Mainly Wes and Omkol, but others show up too. I hope to see it make the top 25 this year. It's very underrated in my opinion compared to the rest of the cave library.

It usually falls in the middle of people’s list with a few people who vote it high which is why it’s been at the cusp of the top 25 the past few votes.

The last time I voted was in the 15th annual vote for 2017 which is the last time it was in the top 25 despite the usual suspects still voting it high

Even before the capcom release there was always a small group of people streaming on twitch, and what was awesome is that STG would pop in people’s streams and help them out/discuss strats which was super motivating. The few times he popped in mine he gave me tips on bullet streaming and other advanced scoring techniques like how to leave stray diamond rings on the map to chain diamond jewel cash-ins, which helped me think about and develop new routes

I never expected it to be dethroned from the top of my list, but Muchi Muchi Pork is awfully close. When I figured out how active you have to be on the buttons switching between shots, it felt so cool and fun that it jumped to the top of my list. After I looped 1.01 I had to get the pcb which isn’t something that happens often..which led to even more time sunk into it until I was comfortable getting the more difficult 1.0 clears. I brought it to a meetup one year and I still have a zerst score to knock off my leaderboards

[m.sniffles.esq]

For me, I really tried to balance historical prominence and fun had while playing. It's a hard balance, I know

Well, at least you try.
I know I'm occasionally publicly down on the poll, but it's when I see the results of a "Top 25 shmups of all time" poll and see 16 Cave titles, yet ctrl+f "Galaga" NOT found (or Xevious, or whatever), I can't say I'm impressed at the amount of critical thought and care that's obviously gone into the thing.

[Steven]

The lack of fucking Space Invaders of all things is quite telling. Yeah, I still haven't played it, but still...

And yes, if I had played it, I would have voted for it. That game is part of culture now. The only other one in the entire genre that has that sort of level of awareness is...

uh

Zero Wing lol

[Meriscan]

For me, I really tried to balance historical prominence and fun had while playing. It's a hard balance, I know

Well, at least you try.
I know I'm occasionally publicly down on the poll, but it's when I see the results of a "Top 25 shmups of all time" poll and see 16 Cave titles, yet ctrl+f "Galaga" NOT found (or Xevious, or whatever), I can't say I'm impressed at the amount of critical thought and care that's obviously gone into the thing.

A list like this will always just be a popularity list. I think if someone tried to make an effort and produce a "most historically significant shmups" list, that would be really interesting to read. But a "top 25" list voted by forum users will just reflect what's currently popular. And I don't think that's a bad thing at all. In my opinion, games are such a personal experience, that trying to rate them "objectively" seems like a boring task. I'm much more interested in reading everyone's personal list they put up in the Voting thread.

[Steven]

I think if someone tried to make an effort and produce a "most historically significant shmups" list, that would be really interesting to read.

It would probably look something like this, plus maybe a few others:

Space Invaders
Xevious
Gradius
Tiger-Heli
R-Type
Hishouzame
Kyuukyoku Tiger
Slap Fight (bullet hell ancestry begins here according to IKD)
Tatsujin
V-V
Batsugun
DonPachi
Battle Garegga
DoDonPachi
Zero Wing for the memes

[m.sniffles.esq]

The lack of fucking Space Invaders of all things is quite telling. Yeah, I still haven't played it, but still...

I can actually accept the lack of Space Invaders, as it's more rooted in a gallery shooter, than what is known as the 'shmup' of today

But once we move to Galaxian? Hmmmmm...

Once we move to Galaga? HMMMMMMM...

And while I understand:
A list like this will always just be a popularity list

I interpret the title of the list as a "Cooperstown Baseball Hall of Fame" rather than "Local Pub's Wall of Players that Were Real Fun to Watch"

I suppose other interpretations differ.

[Steven]

I think I played Galaxian once when I was like 9 or 10 years old, and I'm not even sure if it was Galaxian or something else. Some elements of the game are pretty evident, though; many, MANY Namco games make references to Galaxian.

[Mothlight]

Loooooooong time listener, first time caller.

I always find this poll super interesting as a snapshot of a point in time, that sometimes changes dramatically based on availability, and the wild swings that can entail along with the bits and bobs that hold consistent positions on the list.

And while it is neat to see how individual voters cast their ballots (their faves, what they think are the best, what they believe to be the most important, a mixture of All That Jazz), and how those things shift over time with longtime poll contributors, I find it way more interesting to just see what everyone wants to play. I'd throw GG Aleste 3, Progear or even Drainus on a list before Xevious, Gradius or Space Invaders because they're games I'd actually choose to play.*




*Don't worry, I do not believe having now created an account I have the right to vote!

Spoiler

... this year.

[Some-Mist]

I mainly vote and order my list for the games that I keep getting pulled back into regardless of historical relevance or popularity. Games that I have trouble putting down and ones that I keep thinking about even after I’m done with my session. I’ve played quite a bit of galaga growing up, but I’ve never had any drive to go back and play it unless I come across a cab at a pizza place and have a few quarters on me, which has happened a couple times in the early 2010s.

If you asked me to make a top 25 video game list, you wouldn’t find donkey Kong or mario bros in my list tbh.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Galaxian was just Space Invaders (in color), with the added twist that certain enemies would break formation and dive-bomb you, breaking the me/them barrier of a gallery

Galaga--regardless of how much you currently want to play it--didn't really shake the ground like Galaxian, as much as rip it the fuck open. In that, everything that later became known as a vertical 'shooter', 'shmup'--whatever--isn't so much as inspired by Galaga, but to an extent IS Galaga

Waves of enemies in fast moving formations, power-ups, risk/reward system. Free movement was still in the offing, but those basics started there.

[Meriscan]

I interpret the title of the list as a "Cooperstown Baseball Hall of Fame" rather than "Local Pub's Wall of Players that Were Real Fun to Watch"

Sports players at least have statistics where you can try to figure out which players had their best performances. What would the equivalent for shmups? How many games reference its designs or mechanics? How much money it's made? I know this is very much just my opinion, but putting such a list together seems rather cold to me.

Another benefit of doing this "top 25" list as we've been doing it so far, is that it serves as a list of games that MOST people at least like a little bit. If there's something on there that you haven't tried, I would recommend checking it out. I don't think a 'most historically signifcant' shmup list would help out like this. It's hard to imagine we start recommending people to play Space Invaders.

[EmperorIng]

No one votes for Space Invaders or Xevious, because unless you're a 50 year old who doesn't play a shmup made after 1984, you play these games for about 5 minutes each and then move on to play something more fun.

[Some-Mist]

Another benefit of doing this "top 25" list as we've been doing it so far, is that it serves as a list of games that MOST people at least like a little bit. If there's something on there that you haven't tried, I would recommend checking it out. I don't think a 'most historically signifcant' shmup list would help out like this. It's hard to imagine we start recommending people to play Space Invaders.

Referencing the game list of games (63 games) that you should have played at least half of to be qualified to vote is a very good starting point

[TransatlanticFoe]

For me, I really tried to balance historical prominence and fun had while playing. It's a hard balance, I know

Well, at least you try.
I know I'm occasionally publicly down on the poll, but it's when I see the results of a "Top 25 shmups of all time" poll and see 16 Cave titles, yet ctrl+f "Galaga" NOT found (or Xevious, or whatever), I can't say I'm impressed at the amount of critical thought and care that's obviously gone into the thing.

From the voting rules:

"Your list can contain the games you think are the best overall, the most influential, most personally enjoyable, most underrated, etc."

Selection criteria are left wide open, so I don't think it's especially fair to look down on either others' lists or the results as a whole based on what you personally think the list should be about. Just because someone's list is all Cave or Touhou doesn't mean they haven't put thought into it, and I don't think anyone should feel duty bound to put in games they don't like just because they're influential or whatever. If that floats your boat, then by all means create your list that way - it's just as valid.

It's fun to see all the weird shit that people like anyway!

[Some-Mist]

But let’s get real, in the US space invaders/galaga are definitely greasy pizza parlor games

[m.sniffles.esq]

"Your list can contain the games you think are the best overall, the most influential, most personally enjoyable, most underrated, etc."

Yes, the rules state you can vote for whatever the fuck you feel like.

I interpret the title of the list as a "Cooperstown Baseball Hall of Fame" rather than "Local Pub's Wall of Players that Were Real Fun to Watch"

I suppose other interpretations differ.

But let’s get real, in the US space invaders/galaga are definitely greasy pizza parlor games

Which is precisely how the genre became popular enough that people still discuss it on internet message boards 45 years later...

[TransatlanticFoe]

Then why look down on it when it doesn't match your interpretation?

[m.sniffles.esq]

Because I never said that...

What I said was:
Well, at least you try. [sic] I can't say I'm impressed at the amount of critical thought and care that's obviously gone into the thing.

As kudos to someone who stated they were putting critical thought and care into it.

ANYWAY, at the point when you've quoted yourself (from two hours ago) twice in ten minutes...

carry on

Edit: sorry, something I didn't address

Sports players at least have statistics where you can try to figure out which players had their best performances. Sports players at least have statistics where you can try to figure out which players had their best performances. What would the equivalent for shmups?

That's not really how (at least the baseball) hall of fame works. Stats are nice, sure. But if that was the only criteria, Barry Bonds would be in first ballot, but he isn't in at all (and probably never will be). It's based on... everything. Stats, impact, legacy. Did they effect the game as a whole in a positive manner? Elevate it? Things like that.

[AyeYoYoYO]

But let’s get real, in the US space invaders/galaga are definitely greasy pizza parlor games

100%
Those machines ate so many quarters during waits on rainy days.

I respect he foundation 80's shmups made for the genre, and I still love Fantasy Zone best of all the 80's shmups lol

But i could never allow the historical respect and influence towards future games to make me vote for an early 80's shmup for any top 25 list ... they just don't age well.

I think there could def be some dope results if the same team that did PACMAN CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION DX remade some of the best 80's smhups in that smooth slick neon artstyle.

[AyeYoYoYO]

For me, I really tried to balance historical prominence and fun had while playing. It's a hard balance, I know

Well, at least you try.
I know I'm occasionally publicly down on the poll, but it's when I see the results of a "Top 25 shmups of all time" poll and see 16 Cave titles, yet ctrl+f "Galaga" NOT found (or Xevious, or whatever), I can't say I'm impressed at the amount of critical thought and care that's obviously gone into the thing.

From the voting rules:

"Your list can contain the games you think are the best overall, the most influential, most personally enjoyable, most underrated, etc."

Selection criteria are left wide open, so I don't think it's especially fair to look down on either others' lists or the results as a whole based on what you personally think the list should be about. Just because someone's list is all Cave or Touhou doesn't mean they haven't put thought into it, and I don't think anyone should feel duty bound to put in games they don't like just because they're influential or whatever. If that floats your boat, then by all means create your list that way - it's just as valid.

It's fun to see all the weird shit that people like anyway!

Word.

My votes might scrunch some faces, since I'm such a casual shmup player, with no intention to ever get great at them. I play them strictly for fun and visual stimulation, when I've had enough of my favorite genres (2d fighting games, beat em ups, Mario/Rayman 2d platformers, metroidvanias, Cuphead, Kart Racers). For me, theyre like the acidic tangerine segment in the fatty duck dish ... a pallete cleanser.

[Some-Mist]

But let’s get real, in the US space invaders/galaga are definitely greasy pizza parlor games

100%
Those machines ate so many quarters during waits on rainy days.

I respect he foundation 80's shmups made for the genre, and I still love Fantasy Zone best of all the 80's shmups lol

But i could never allow the historical respect and influence towards future games to make me vote for an early 80's shmup for any top 25 list ... they just don't age well.

I think there could def be some dope results if the same team that did PACMAN CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION DX remade some of the best 80's smhups in that smooth slick neon artstyle.

So many quarters. What I failed to mention is that I was a greasy delivery boy at one of those pizza joints during my college years, and we had a galaga machine that I’d occasionally play when I wasn’t out back chain smoking.

Blew away my co-workers because unbeknownst to them (I don’t tell acquaintances I game) I was already enamored by the genre and going for danmaku high scores…so I was crushed em on the leaderboards

[To Far Away Times]

I think there could def be some dope results if the same team that did PACMAN CHAMPIONSHIP EDITION DX remade some of the best 80's smhups in that smooth slick neon artstyle.

If you haven't played it, Space Invaders Extreme is pretty close in spirit to something like Pacman CE. I love the scoring system in it too. There are many ways to rack up points and it's very free form in how you can approach it and what bonuses you want to target. It's the opposite of something like DDP DOJ or Ikaruga where you follow the intended route.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Seconding the Space Invaders Extreme rec. A seriously GREAT game

(I know some prefer IG--which I liked/found interesting, but Extreme is an all-timer)