20th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[DMC]

in a Shoot'Em Up the Z axis doesn't exist.

Then explain Xevious, RayForce, Zaxxon, RayCrisis, RayStorm, Kamui, Soukyuugurentai, and others that use the Z axis.

I would say that in games like Souky, gameplay is primarily 2D but with some 3D elements.
It's essentially a 2d game but with two Z layers (one level is the same as your ship, and the other one is the off-level) but only for some of the gameplay mechanics.
For instance, in Souky, enemies and your shot exists in two Z planes. If the enemies are at the same level as your ship, you can collide with them and hit them with any attack.
If the enemies are not on the same level you can only hit them with the lock-on weapon.
Dodging bullets, however, is entirely 2D (correct me if I'm wrong ofc). In other words, enemy bullets are only on the same level as your ship so there is no Z depth there.

To me that is much more closer to a pure 2D game than a pure 3d game. Xevious, Rayforce, and others I think are similar.

Space Harrier however, dodging occur in virtually 3D. Bullets have a near-continuous trajectory as they get closer and closer to you in terms of depth (Z) as well as moving along the X and Y axis. So here were are not talking about two 2D layers, but so many layers that it looks more like a Continuum--and therefore this game is closer to 3D than 2D gameplay. And both shooting and dodging is virtually 3D in Space Harrier.

Maybe there is an accepted scholar definition? Otherwise, a definition like this maybe would work?
A shmup is a game in which gameplay mechanics are primarily two-dimensional with focus on shooting and dodging, and in which movement is either one-dimensional or moving freely across two dimensions.

The other approach would be to take a family resemblance view and consider a number of elements to belong to a shmup and the more elements are there in a certain game, the more prototypical shmup it would be.
2D shooting mechanics
2D dodging mechanics
Top-down or side point of view
Flying character (helicopter, space ship, witch on a broom etc)
Fixed screen or Auto scrolling
Waves or Stages that can be cleared
Hi score function

[Sengoku Strider]

Glad to see you're doing this again, I was worried it was dead and gone. I've been thinking Deathsmiles is going higher on my list this time. I introduced it to my 4-year old nephew at Christmas, and watching him fall totally in love with it gave me a newfound appreciation for it.

My big question to myself this time around is GG Aleste 3. At the time it received tons of praise, even GOTY awards. I absolutely loved it and still do, but I was also acutely aware it might have been recency bias, or happiness with elements surrounding the game's circumstances granting it a halo. I've been playing it a bunch lately and still enjoying it, but there are elements to its performance and design that make me wonder if it's really all-time top 25 material. It's pushing its hardware spec so hard that some of the slowdown (something I'm not sure I've ever complained about in a shmup) gets erratic. Some of the hit detection seems spotty at times, sometimes you can squeeze through small gaps, sometimes the game laughs at you for even trying. I could also swear it lags at times too.

I'll probably still rate it on my list, the game still always makes me smile, and I think anything that keeps me playing for 3 years is great pretty much by definition. Unless it's something I'm just trying to hate-finish.

What sets Space Harrier apart from Starwing and Panzer Dragoon is in the latter two you're primarily moving a cursor around to shoot stuff.

Top notch post. Rez is a shooter, you do nothing but shoot (except in Area X), but really you're defending a static position, almost more like Missile Command than Space Harrier.

I'd be fine with those games being included, they fit in my mind, I don't think there are too many shmup players who don't have them somewhere in their collection (or hearts). But there are also enough great titles that get squeezed out by half of Cave's catalogue making the list that I'd hate to see more gone.

Maybe a bonus 'shmup adjacent' list for edge cases? Unless that would make for a lot more work.

[Steven]

in a Shoot'Em Up the Z axis doesn't exist.

Then explain Xevious, RayForce, Zaxxon, RayCrisis, RayStorm, Kamui, Soukyuugurentai, and others that use the Z axis.

I would say that in games like Souky, gameplay is primarily 2D but with some 3D elements.
It's essentially a 2d game but with two Z layers (one level is the same as your ship, and the other one is the off-level) but only for some of the gameplay mechanics.
For instance, in Souky, enemies and your shot exists in two Z planes. If the enemies are at the same level as your ship, you can collide with them and hit them with any attack.
If the enemies are not on the same level you can only hit them with the lock-on weapon.
Dodging bullets, however, is entirely 2D (correct me if I'm wrong ofc). In other words, enemy bullets are only on the same level as your ship so there is no Z depth there.

To me that is much more closer to a pure 2D game than a pure 3d game. Xevious, Rayforce, and others I think are similar.

Space Harrier however, dodging occur in virtually 3D. Bullets have a near-continuous trajectory as they get closer and closer to you in terms of depth (Z) as well as moving along the X and Y axis. So here were are not talking about two 2D layers, but so many layers that it looks more like a Continuum--and therefore this game is closer to 3D than 2D gameplay. And both shooting and dodging is virtually 3D in Space Harrier.

Maybe there is an accepted scholar definition? Otherwise, a definition like this maybe would work?
A shmup is a game in which gameplay mechanics are primarily two-dimensional with focus on shooting and dodging, and in which movement is either one-dimensional or moving freely across two dimensions.

The other approach would be to take a family resemblance view and consider a number of elements to belong to a shmup and the more elements are there in a certain game, the more prototypical shmup it would be.
2D shooting mechanics
2D dodging mechanics
Top-down or side point of view
Flying character (helicopter, space ship, witch on a broom etc)
Fixed screen or Auto scrolling
Waves or Stages that can be cleared
Hi score function

Yeah, Soukyuugurentai is basically on 2 planes, and things either exist in one or the other. Then you have stuff like Eschatos, which I have not played for a while, but I seem to remember the Z axis existing there for both collision with enemies and for enemy shots... I think. I think it also has a display option that lets you see where an enemy is on the Z axis in relation to you as well, and if an enemy is sufficiently below you on the Z axis, you can't collide. I think Ginga Force also has something similar to this, and in both games I'm pretty sure enemy shots exist within a 3D space on the Z axis. Kamui does something similar, where enemies below you shoot up through the Z axis, but your shot, like Ginga Force and Eschatos, only exists on the top plane but is capable of hitting everything.

My big question to myself this time around is GG Aleste 3. At the time it received tons of praise, even GOTY awards. I absolutely loved it and still do, but I was also acutely aware it might have been recency bias, or happiness with elements surrounding the game's circumstances granting it a halo. I've been playing it a bunch lately and still enjoying it, but there are elements to its performance and design that make me wonder if it's really all-time top 25 material.

You too, huh? I booted GG Aleste 3 off my list a few weeks ago for similar reasons, but I also really like it, so I put it in the honorable mentions for now.

[Sengoku Strider]

I'm sure it'll still make my list, I can honestly say there haven't been 25 shmups that I've enjoyed or gone back to more over the years. Like, Rolling Gunner is an impeccably designed game, I like it...but I rarely feel motivated to pick it up and play it. I could put a lot of other titles that I respect in that same boat.

I also got big into PC Engine in the interim. Playing on the original hardware crushes the Virtual Console versions I'd been playing for many of them before that. And some games I'd never experienced before...Nexzr's caravan mode might just have been good enough to get it on my list. I also kind of want to give Star Parodier an honourable mention just because of how earnestly adorable it is.

[Nifty]

Guess I'll try to clear this up a bit more now because I do want to get on with proceedings

Peering in a bit deeper again, my personal misgivings about including um... fixed-aiming rail shooters? after having just pared down other categories would be that they're still also knocking on the door of at least a couple other disallowed genres (does still give a rather third-person-y/gallery-y feeling of play that's hard to shake), which is usually a sign that the definition's starting to be overstretched. I also doubt it'd be a one-off, I'm pretty sure it would mean I'd be adding in games like Night Striker as well and pushing even further adrift. Something like GI Joe is probably a shade less separated overall but runs into the same set of problems. Another thing I tend to consider a lot is how far the gameplay moves away if the other mechanics start changing; adding a melee or lock-on weapon or a perspective shift or two to a standard vert is barely a departure, but throw some After Burner flips in here and the entire feel alters rapidly. What with overall opinion already trending towards a more limited approach than what I've been using, it's difficult for me to say these should be divided across boundaries at the moment and I'd prefer not to get too caught up before moving on.


Speaking of, having had double the usual release period between events means there's a lot of ground there to cover, which the thread's begun gravitating more toward anyway. I know it's basically what the usual generic topic is, but given the current situation I think it'd be worth devoting some extra focus to everything that's been happening more recently in collective T25 world, literally or personally.

[Lethe]

I'm sure it'll still make my list, I can honestly say there haven't been 25 shmups that I've enjoyed or gone back to more over the years. Like, Rolling Gunner is an impeccably designed game, I like it...but I rarely feel motivated to pick it up and play it. I could put a lot of other titles that I respect in that same boat.

Considered voting for 15 instead? Listing games you don't want to play can't be right.

[Sengoku Strider]

I'm sure it'll still make my list, I can honestly say there haven't been 25 shmups that I've enjoyed or gone back to more over the years. Like, Rolling Gunner is an impeccably designed game, I like it...but I rarely feel motivated to pick it up and play it. I could put a lot of other titles that I respect in that same boat.

Considered voting for 15 instead? Listing games you don't want to play can't be right.

Oh, I wasn't planning to. I just listed that as an example of why I wouldn't disqualify an imperfect game, because it can still be a better time than something without those flaws.

[Nifty]

Voting thread is live now, let's make this one count

[Steven]

I was going to ask about R-Type Final 3 Evolved, actually, but it looks like you beat me to it!

[reckon luck]

I like Bangai-O.

[Steven]

I really do need to play that eventually.

Consider this my Official-Totally-Not-Official-Vote-That-Unfortunately-Doesn't-Count™ for Space Harrier and After Burner II, of which at least the former deserves to be on the list every single time.

Also Out Zone is good and you should already have played it many times by this point in your life.

Anyway, I know I'm already at least partially insane, but I really thought I put Blue Revolver above Xeno Crisis. Might swap them later if I remember what it was that I had intended to do.

[Some-Mist]

I really want to fit in eschatos, espgaluda ii, and 1944: the loop master but it’s not gonna fit

I really had a blast with gunvein this year too…

[To Far Away Times]

X-Multiply, ZeroRanger, and Cotton Rock 'N Roll are new additions for me this year.

DDP Daifukkatsu, Blue Wish Resurrection Plus, and Blazing Star got the boot to honorable mentions.

G Darius and Darius Burst AC climbed a bit, I wanted to make sure they had staying power, and they did.

[NuclearPotato]

2023 was once again a year where I continued to expand my shmup horizons and played more varied games, helped by me starting to join score tourneys like La Calice Cup. Calice 7 is in fact pretty directly responsible for the presence of Progear and Raiden DX on this list. Progear wasn't too surprising an addition with how much I love horis, but Raiden DX was a real sleeper hit with me (though considering that Raiden Fighters was a formative game for me getting into shmups, perhaps I shouldn't be that surprised). Flying Shark I may have overrated a bit, but hey, that game's got a real something to it that keeps me coming back for more. DDP DOJ made a big climb on my list again, as revisiting it on the PS4 port has made me remember just why it was such an early favorite of mine. Otherwise my favorites are still pretty well set; G-Darius has taken the top spot over R-Type due to being a better score game with more varied content, but R-Type is just so influential and great in its own right that I can't vote it lower than top 2.

[Whisker]

Ah, fudge. Just booted up Giga Wing again. Turns out it's a better game than what I had remembered. I should've given it a 10.

[Lethe]

You still can if you want, edits are allowed.

Going for a sort of 15+10 this time to avoid breaking some self-imposed stipulations. I tried out Cho Ren Sha v1.1 recently and I ended up liking it a lot more than I did in the past (don't know why, there aren't any obvious gameplay changes) - hard mode is just about wild enough to be interesting without getting stressful.

Anyway, I know I'm already at least partially insane, but I really thought I put Blue Revolver above Xeno Crisis. Might swap them later if I remember what it was that I had intended to do.

I'm a little surprised to see you voting for Blue Revolver at all.

[Steven]

Anyway, I know I'm already at least partially insane, but I really thought I put Blue Revolver above Xeno Crisis. Might swap them later if I remember what it was that I had intended to do.

I'm a little surprised to see you voting for Blue Revolver at all.

So was I. It was one of three changes I made about 20 seconds before I posted the list, along with Judgement Silversword, which barely replaced Cotton Rock 'n' Roll (and I feel kind of bad about it because Rock 'n' Roll is excellent), and Cardinal Sins, which kicked Saidaioujou off the list. All three of those final additions were always candidates, but I've been revisiting Blue Revolver for the past few days and I do think it's a great game with a lot of interesting ideas, much like Cardinal Sins, and chaining isn't boring and/or annoying as shit like it is in some other games, and it encourages using every weapon available, including bombs, and I always like games that encourage using bombs instead of punishing the player for using them. Blue Revolver gets it right.

I'm still not sure about the order, so I may go back and change some stuff, but I'm pretty sure that it won't change much from what it is now. The biggest regret I have is that I have spent so very little time with Batrider and Bakraid, about 20 minutes each, and for the entire duration of last year I kept meaning to play them for this list but just didn't for some reason. Same with Hellsinker.

Here is my original finalized (or so I thought) draft list before I changed it immediately prior to voting. It's moderately different, and some of those possible candidates ended up making the final list. Xevious and Blue Revolver ended up switching places, which resulted in Xevious being kicked off entirely and Blue Revolver going from not being on the list to where it is now. Batrider, Bakraid, Gradius Gaiden, Hellsinker, RefRain, and R-Type Delta were basically on the list of potential stuff as a way to remind myself to go play those games some more, but RefRain and Delta were the only ones that I actually did that with.

Spoiler

[25] [Out Zone]
[25] [Hishouzame]
[25] [Slap Fight MD Special mode thing]
[25] [Slap Fight arcade]
[25] [Kyuukyoku Tiger]
[20] [Kaitei Daisensou]
[19] [R-Type]
[18] [Kamui]
[17] [Soukyuugurentai]
[16] [Chourensha 68K]
[15] [Xexex]
[14] [R-Type Final 3 Evolved]
[13] [Crimzon Clover]
[12] [Gradius V]
[11] [Same! Same! Same!]
[10] [Battle Garegga]
[9] [RayForce]
[8] [Image Fight]
[7] [Halley's Comet]
[6] [Xeno Crisis]
[5] [Kiki Kaikai Kuro Manto no Nazo]
[4] [Thunder Dragon 2]
[3] [V-V]
[2] [Blue Revolver]
[1] [Tiger-Heli]

[0] [Mars Matrix]
[0] [1941 Counter Attack]
[0] [Mahou Daisakusen]
[0] [Gradius]
[0] [Super Stardust Ultra]
[0] [GG Aleste 3]
[0] [Cotton Rock 'n' Roll]
[0] [DoDonPachi]
[0] [DoDonPachi Saidaioujou]
[0] [Dangun Feveron]

Possible candidates
R-Type Delta
Armed Police Batrider
Battle Bakraid
Judgement Silversword
Cardinal Sins
RefRain - prism memories -
HellSinker
Xevious
R-Type Leo
Eschatos
Gradius Gaiden

[Nifty]

To give my own point(s) of recent notice - the new additions in the P-47 Aces MK II release look like the exact sort of updates to give it an ideal refresh for the current era and it'd almost certainly get a big long-term rise if I had some way of actually playing it Similar case for Senjin Aleste.
It'd be nice to see Macross II bump up enough to reach the HMs so it can get itself on the permalist.

[Steven]

Oh yeah, Senjin Aleste and P-47 Aces Kai exist. I played P-47 Aces Kai during its location test, but then it took like a year and a half for me to actually see the damn thing in the wild again. Senjin Aleste is really cool, if confusing as hell. Mikado has both of them and Taito Hey has Senjin Aleste.

[Sengoku Strider]

R-Type is just so influential and great in its own right that I can't vote it lower than top 2.

I placed it really high on my list as well the first time I voted, for similar reasons. But over time I felt I had to de-emphasize historical significance in my rankings, because really R-Type was built off Gradius' template, which was itself an evolution of Konami's own Scramble. Things like Space Invaders, Tiger Heli and Xevious have probably had more influence, certainly at a design/mechanical level. Defender might belong in there as well. I didn't think just doing a half-hearted design genealogy was really playing into the list's value; it was how I first found this forum, when I was looking to find out what was really good in the genre.

[NuclearPotato]

You're not wrong; I think what it just comes down to for me is that R-Type is a game that 100% agrees with my sensibilities as a player. It just fits me like a glove, and I'm happy to keep it that high on my personal list as a result.

(On the subject of Gradius, I have the PCE version on my list instead of the arcade because I just think that version of the game is the best possible version of what the original Gradius could be; better balance, more fleshed out music, additional content, etc.)

[Sengoku Strider]

(On the subject of Gradius, I have the PCE version on my list instead of the arcade because I just think that version of the game is the best possible version of what the original Gradius could be; better balance, more fleshed out music, additional content, etc.)

Absolutely! I could take or leave the extra stage, but the PCE's sound hardware and colour palette make every element of that game pop.

[Whisker]

You still can if you want, edits are allowed.

No, it's fine. I'll nudge it up in next year's poll.

[evil_ash_xero]

I like Bangai-O.

Dope game. Not a shmup.

[reckon luck]

I like Bangai-O.

Dope game. Not a shmup.

I’ve voted for it before and I’ll vote for it again. It’s explicitly included in the rules.

[Steven]

R-Type is just so influential and great in its own right that I can't vote it lower than top 2.

I placed it really high on my list as well the first time I voted, for similar reasons. But over time I felt I had to de-emphasize historical significance in my rankings, because really R-Type was built off Gradius' template, which was itself an evolution of Konami's own Scramble. Things like Space Invaders, Tiger Heli and Xevious have probably had more influence, certainly at a design/mechanical level. Defender might belong in there as well. I didn't think just doing a half-hearted design genealogy was really playing into the list's value; it was how I first found this forum, when I was looking to find out what was really good in the genre.

I kicked Xevious and Gradius off for this exact reason. Tiger-Heli stayed because I genuinely enjoy playing Tiger-Heli. It's a really fun game.

[Sengoku Strider]

I'll lose no sleep over it being included, but I gotta admit Bangai-O feels a whole lot less shmuppy than Space Harrier does. I got it when it hit Dreamcast and from the talk I was expecting the next Radiant Silvergun, but instead I got Robotron the sideview platformer or something.

[evil_ash_xero]

I like Bangai-O.

Dope game. Not a shmup.

I’ve voted for it before and I’ll vote for it again. It’s explicitly included in the rules.

Apologies.

[donluca]

A bit late to the party, but as much as I love VS (and god knows how many hours I've poured into it), it is absolutely not a shmup to me.

The same goes for games such as Rez and Panzer Dragoon.

[copy-paster]

Did some changes for the ranks this year since my taste has been different compared to last year.

Dropping Macros II in favor for Darius Extra Version (MD) is one tough decision here, the former is still very good and one of NMK's magnum opus but I just can't resist with the chillness and still challenging nature of Darius MD. I consider it the best incarnation of the game and with lots of features added in, like including all 3 different versions (Old, New, Extra), 26 boss mode, autofire rate settings, cheat codes for practicing stages, sound test and the option to revert the shield behavior close to arcade version (you have to beat the game once to unlock this one).