Replacing a monitor in a Blast City with an LCD?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I've got a friend who's inherited a Blast City that was retooled for use with PC games (Battle Traverse, Blue Wish Resurrection, etc). The CRT appears to have died, it's totally unresponsive. Finding a replacement tube has been tricky. Anyone have any recommendations on what to purchase as far as replacement screens go if the owner would be happy with a flatscreen LCD? Obviously there'd be a bit of a gap in the bezel but that's not necessarily the end of the world. I assume any screen that's purchased might need to be retrofitted with mounting points for the Blast City. Power supply would no longer be in use as the controls are all being powered by the PC already.

Thanks in advance.

[Josh128]

Theres that new Unico 26" 4:3 that might be viable, but the more it was investigated, the more crappy it seemed to be. But the price was pretty good-- for your application, it might work well.


https://www.retrorgb.com/the-unico-ulm- ... bacle.html

[emphatic]

He could probably put a widescreen monitor slightly bigger than the 29" crt in it if he plans on playing 4:3 games. It could work, hiding the excess screen estate behind the bezel. Blast City cabinets have flat CRTs IIRC.

Or, maybe not...

[Josh128]

On second thought, I think the Unico 26" might be the ideal LCD replacment for this. Its a 768p panel, so it would actually be perfect for 25KHz 384p Blast City / Model 3 games if you slap an OSSC Pro in there and line double + scanlines your arcade board output. Line tripled 240p would also fit nicely with a bit of underscan. So yeah, its probably the best workable solution, even if its not the greatest panel specs wise.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate it. It definitely works like a serviceable option, just have to force the PC into 1024 x 768 resolution it seems to get it looking the best. It's not quite as wide as the Blast's CRT is, but it's basically impossible to find large 4:3 ratio screens now, let alone 29" ones.

[Josh128]

Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate it. It definitely works like a serviceable option, just have to force the PC into 1024 x 768 resolution it seems to get it looking the best. It's not quite as wide as the Blast's CRT is, but it's basically impossible to find large 4:3 ratio screens now, let alone 29" ones.

The Wei-ya / Makvision tri scan M-3129 CRT is no longer produced, but if you could get one, it would be a drop in replacement as it is a 27"/29" 4:3 CRT essentially made for these cabs.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Is using a comparable TV doable, assuming you can fit it under the bezel? I've heard of people swapping the yoke on a TV CRT to use as an arcade monitor, but I don't think it's a rabbit hole I want to suggest as there's more involved there like potential power draw differences. If we could find a replacement CRT that'd be ideal, but I've had no luck tracking one down.

[Josh128]

Is using a comparable TV doable, assuming you can fit it under the bezel? I've heard of people swapping the yoke on a TV CRT to use as an arcade monitor, but I don't think it's a rabbit hole I want to suggest as there's more involved there like potential power draw differences. If we could find a replacement CRT that'd be ideal, but I've had no luck tracking one down.

Mixing and matching tubes, yokes, and chassis are beyond anything Ive ever attempted, unfortunately.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, it's not something I'd want to attempt personally. If I had a local shop that specializes in that service maybe, but definitely not a do-it-yourself kind of thing!

[emphatic]

Is using a comparable TV doable, assuming you can fit it under the bezel? I've heard of people swapping the yoke on a TV CRT to use as an arcade monitor, but I don't think it's a rabbit hole I want to suggest as there's more involved there like potential power draw differences. If we could find a replacement CRT that'd be ideal, but I've had no luck tracking one down.

You could always check Craigslist for 29" TVs. In North America, component inputs seem to have been the norm, so no need to do any Yoke swapping if you can stomach using the native inputs/controls of the television set. Easy to hook up consoles too.

Also, there are projects like these for Component TV sets: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... msg1730133

[Dochartaigh]

What is the size of the indented portion which the monitor sits in now (which is taller than the monitor itself in both width and height)? Dimensions of the inside of the bezel?

People can sometimes fit in 16:9 flatscreens in cabs. They put them in sideways (tate) with a large portion of the screen hidden inside the cab IF there's room to do that of course... then just have the image programmed to fit in the area you actually see.

...would still rather see the CRT repaired. There's places (in Vegas I want to say was the one my buddy used) where you can send your entire CRT boards (main and neck board usually I believe) which will re-do most everything on them, then you essentially just slap them back onto the tube when you get them back. That is assuming the CRT tube itself is still ok of course.

[spmbx]

I'd say see if you can sell the cab as-is for a decent amount and spend what you make on a good oled tv and joystick. It'll look miles better than most anything you'll hack in there from both an aesthetic as a picturequality point of view anyway.

[thchardcore]

Blast tubes are relatively easy to find for matching curvature (compared to say the tube in an Astro City), so I would explore that option and exhaust all possible donor consumer TV sets before moving to LCD satan. The yoke will need to be swapped in almost all cases, so it is a bit more involved, but not that daunting once you do it a few times.

Fitting an LCD might seem like a reasonable approach given the machine's age and your current use case, but it will greatly devalue the cabinet and if you are serious about your games, I'm fairly certain you will regret going down that road.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

You could always check Craigslist for 29" TVs. In North America, component inputs seem to have been the norm, so no need to do any Yoke swapping if you can stomach using the native inputs/controls of the television set.

As it turns out, they recently gave away an old 29" TV to me before the cab's monitor appears to have died. It's got a more noticeable curvature and I've no idea if it has the mounting points necessary to fit in the Blast City, but I'm actually thinking I'll try to pull it apart and see if we can fit it in the Blast City and rig up whatever necessary connectors. I was originally going to use it to replace a 27" CRT but unfortunately there's a few scratches in the middle of the screen, so I'd prefer to keep using my old one. They're not the end of the world and aren't super visible when the screen's on, but I still prefer my slightly smaller, more or less pristine one. I was also worried about breaking the thing if I were to pull it apart to use it as parts as I've never taken apart a consumer TV before... but it can't be that bad to figure out I suppose, just a matter of unscrewing it until the housing comes apart hopefully. And with the scratches on the front I was going to just take it to electronics recycling eventually, so if it can get repurposed to breathe life into the cab that'd be good.

I'll have to confirm the model number on the TV later but if it works I don't think the gaming being done on it is that serious that it'd be ruined by a couple of potentially buffable scratches? It has composite video connections on the back and an RF connector, nothing fancy.

...would still rather see the CRT repaired.

As would I but a) the local guy who used to do my CRT repairs appears to have retired and b) the folks who own the Blast City aren't particularly interested in arcade tech authenticity and would be happy with any easy solution that results in a working monitor.

Not sure about the measurements, my plan is to go visit them and work on removing the monitor as that'd be the first step towards any kind of fix/repair.

Fitting an LCD might seem like a reasonable approach given the machine's age and y]our current use case, but it will greatly devalue the cabinet and if you are serious about your games, I'm fairly certain you will regret going down that road.

Cab value is not relevant to the owners; they don't plan on reselling it. It's just there to be a cool, nostalgic toy.

I'd say see if you can sell the cab as-is for a decent amount and spend what you make on a good oled tv and joystick.

The purpose of purchasing the cab was to use it with the intention as a MAME cab, and it's in a room that already has a TV for other gaming.

[spmbx]

It would basically be a big empty stripped hunk of fiberglass housing a pc and a small hackjob lcd, if you think that offers some value for you then go for it, i don't have any tips other than "no" though. Good luck on the project

[Josh128]

Does it even have the internal arcade PCB hardware in it? If so, what game is it?

Also, Re: the scratched glass-- these are quite easy to buff and polish out with a $20 Wal-mart high speed rotary tool. All you need is the little 1" round sanding disc kits that include the mounting wheel/pad and discs that can be gotten from Ebay or Amazon for cheap. Try to get one that has 1000 grit, 3000 grit, and 5000-7000 grit discs. Then you need a small amount of cerium oxide polishing powder.

You simply start with 1000 grit, which will take material off to level the scratched area. You will see the glass dust flying off the scratch edges as you lightly hit the glass. When you cant see or feel the scratch you will be left with a permanent smudge/blurry spot. Go over that spot with 3000, then 5000-7000, it will become less smudgy. Finally, some cerium oxide water slurry with a low speed drill or a damp rag using circular motions (this works just as well). The scratch will be gone and the glass will be just as glossy and shiny as it was new. Its very satifsying, actually.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It does technically have JAMMA connections inside but I think at some point they were changed; no games I've tried with it have worked, so I think the wiring at some point was adjusted.

Also, Re: the scratched glass-- these are quite easy to buff and polish out with a $20 Wal-mart high speed rotary tool.

Interesting to know! I might give that a whirl, thanks for the tips. If they decide to toss an LCD screen in it anyways, I might be able to repair and repurpose this screen as a primary CRT gaming TV, or potentially pop it in my old Net City whose screen has seen better days. The TV doesn't owe me anything so it'd be interesting to see if I can buff it out for fun I guess.

[Rastan78]

If you have access to a rotary sander you can also put a wool felt polishing pad on there and go right to a slurry of cerium oxide and water. Efficient but a bit messy.

[Josh128]

If you have access to a rotary sander you can also put a wool felt polishing pad on there and go right to a slurry of cerium oxide and water. Efficient but a bit messy.

Cerium oxide alone is not sufficient for scratches deep enough to "feel" with your fingernail. It is for final polish or -extremely light- scuffs only. This is from personal experience -- I attempted it on my first try when I started with a 1/2" diameter conical wool/felt tip for my electric drill and cerium oxide only to see if I could fix some scratches on some of the Hitachi 27MM20/30B dual scan 27"ers I got a couple years back. I quickly realized you have to take off significant surface thickness to eliminate true scratches and a small (~.75" - 1") 1000-1250 grit alumina sanding disc on with a small high speed rotary tool/ Dremel at about 25-35% speed is 100% the way to do that.

Ive fixed scratches so deep that the end result left a pinky-finger tip sized "dent", albeit perfectly smooth and shiny, on the tube where the scratch was sanded, buffed, then polished out. Totally invisible when monitor was on and gaming.

Also, you definitely want to wear eye and breathing protection (N95 equivalent) when hitting with the initial 1000 and 3000 grit. Also monitor the heat generated. You want to take your time because the process does generate heat, especially with the 3000 and 7000 grit discs, which have the texture of leather. The last thing you want is to do is risk damaging the phosphors with a hot spot from buffing.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

If I use the donor TV, I'll likely install it first and see if it's tolerable with the scratches before attempting any buffing, especially since it'd be risking damage if it's the first time I've done such a thing! It'd be something I'd trust more with a professional repair person.

[emphatic]

May not be noticeable in game, but when that white AMI screen in the CAVE games lights up the screen, it will be annoying.

[gray117]

There's square monitors but they're expensive for size - more like 25 inch screen... Eizo were the first to make one and tried advertising it for productivity - turns out prime use is by air traffic controllers.

There's a fairly nice adaptation here using a net city and lg's newer squarish monitor:
https://youtu.be/Zg-wOghYEA0?feature=shared

... Shame not just a tiny bit bigger. We live in hope...

[Josh128]

If I use the donor TV, I'll likely install it first and see if it's tolerable with the scratches before attempting any buffing, especially since it'd be risking damage if it's the first time I've done such a thing! It'd be something I'd trust more with a professional repair person.

Understandable, it sounds intense and complicated but its actually extremely easy and simple. If you change your mind and want to give it a try, PM me and I can help you.

[Rastan78]

Cerium oxide alone is not sufficient for scratches deep enough to "feel" with your fingernail.

You can go pretty deep with the cerium and felt pad on a rotary sander bc you can get a lot of leverage and really bear down. You want to work at a slight angle making a contact patch near the edge of the pad. You can slowly feather out the surrounding area and avoid making an optical distortion.

But you're right there's a limit to how much material you want to remove as a particularly deep scratch will be slow going.

Another option for a deep scratch would be a filler. Which could be anything from a specialty UV cure resin to super DIY clear nail polish from Walgreens. After a good long cure for a few days gently scrape that excess nail polish down with a brand new razor blade, polish with a t shirt and some whitening toothpaste, and yer good to go.

@Josh BTW you might want to try using water when using any abrasive on glass, even if that means taking extra steps to protect your TV. Having a spray bottle on hand will greatly help with cooling. The fine dust particles will stay suspended in the water and you can just wipe up with a towel.

Roo, yeah all that being said I would just enjoy as is and don't let it bother you. I have years of professional experience with this kind of stuff and I've seen a nice CRT on the side of the road that was scuffed up and said nah fuck it. There's a big difference between what I'll do when getting paid and what I'll do to enjoy some games lol.

[Josh128]

Cerium oxide alone is not sufficient for scratches deep enough to "feel" with your fingernail.

@Josh BTW you might want to try using water when using any abrasive on glass, even if that means taking extra steps to protect your TV. Having a spray bottle on hand will greatly help with cooling. The fine dust particles will stay suspended in the water and you can just wipe up with a towel.

Spray bottle w/water is definitely a must for polishing with the cerium slurry. I didnt use it with the abrasive pads though it might not a bad idea for cooling the glass quickly after making some passes with the super fine grit pads. I wouldnt try it while using the HS rotary tool as it would instantly sling the water everywhere.

You get a feel for the heat generated pretty quickly with the fine grit pads and I just make sure to never let it get it much more than warm to the touch. I must say it is quite satisfying to do. Recently, I found an ad for Sammy PN51F4500AF plasma locally in FB market place that was in rough shape and had a fairly big scuff on the glass, but otherwise worked fine. They wanted $30 for it and I was going to get it to replace the panel in my old one, which developed an unrepairable vertical line in it. I was going to attempt the glass repair on it and was curious how doing it on the thin glass vs thick glass of the CRTs would have turned out. The dude never responded so I never got the chance.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Thanks again everyone for your help with this.

Theres that new Unico 26" 4:3 that might be viable

https://www.retrorgb.com/the-unico-ulm- ... bacle.html

This ended up being the route they went. It fits the bezel quite decently. We made a frame for it, screwed it in, seems to work fine. I wasn't able to try anything super graphically intensive on it sadly as they hadn't finished getting games setup on the computer they were going to use with it, but the screen itself looked fine when I tested and installation was pretty easy. We made a frame that hangs on the posts where the metal CRT frame goes, and screwed into that.

[SuperSpongo]

Neat! Did you snap any pics?

[Josh128]

Nice! Wonder what the final word is on the res and input lag, has anything about the model changed? Seems like I remember 1024x768 and around 11 ms input lag?


Let us know if yall ever can test and find out.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Here you go!

https://i.imgur.com/CLgfaaf.jpeg

It fits nearly edge to edge with maybe 0.75" space at the top and the bottom. Will figure out a way of adding a fancy bezel inside so you can't see inside, but when you're sitting at the cab it doesn't look really off at all. I believe it was native res 1024 x 768. I'm not sure how to accurately test the input lag in ms, but when I tried a few shmups like Dodonpachi it felt quite responsive. I didn't have any issues playing.

Actually that's not quite true. There was one issue, but it appeared to be with MAME and not the monitor itself. The latest version appears to default to do frame blending? So things get a bit blurry when things are moving in-game. Not like, unplayable or anything, but I don't remember seeing this when moving things like the cursor in the OS, and we didn't have a chance to poke too long at MAME settings to try and turn it off yet. The monitor itself seems to be just fine and it's just an emulator setting that needs tweaking.

[emphatic]

That looks quite decent for what it is. Maybe slap on a scan line generator in the video chain?