HD Fury X3 same as HD Fury 3? How does 3/X3 compare to X4/4?

[Ikaruga11]

So I'm looking to buy an HDMI -> VGA converter, and the HD Fury 3/X3 and 4/X4 were the most recommended, especially for the MiSTer FPGA.

However, according to this website: https://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?tit ... s_for_OSSC



The HD Fury 3 seems to have some ringing/halo artifacts in the image output. Does the X3, 4 or X4 have this same ringing/halo artifact image output too? Is there a firmware update for the HD Fury 3 that fixes this?

[orange808]

Do you really need a DAC?

I'd seriously consider using the MiSTer analog output board. FYI, the truly most recommended DAC is the HDFury Nano DX, but it's not being manufactured anymore. That's unfortunate.

Amiga AGA is the only place I like a DAC. Do you use that mode often? Everything else is fine.

Try the PSX core out for yourself before you decide you absolutely need an external DAC. The image tradeoff is small. The analog output will also allow you to easily chain a GBS control or Retrotink5x to keep the PSX core from dropping sync during games, without adding a full frame of lag using the MiSTer scaler option. Some PSX games change video modes during the game. Someday, there will be N64 core games that will do the same thing. Using a DAC with MiSTer "low lag" is going to drop sync every time the video changes.

[jd213]

The MiSTer analog board is definitely nice for those like me who alternate between a CRT and a flatscreen.

I have to admit that the lower bit DAC in the analog board does bother my OCD a bit, though. Would probably have gone with the digital board and used an external DAC if I knew about it in advance.

Would be nice if the digital board added an additional HDMI port and could also be used like the analog board (scaled output on on port and 240p output on another). Plus the exclusive features of the digital board might come in handy (just noticed it has analog audio input, can this be used to mix in audio from a MIDI module? couldn't find much info on it online)

Maybe a digital board with 4K output will come out someday.

[Ikaruga11]

Do you really need a DAC?

I'd seriously consider using the MiSTer analog output board. FYI, the truly most recommended DAC is the HDFury Nano DX, but it's not being manufactured anymore. That's unfortunate.

Amiga AGA is the only place I like a DAC. Do you use that mode often? Everything else is fine.

Try the PSX core out for yourself before you decide you absolutely need an external DAC. The image tradeoff is small. The analog output will also allow you to easily chain a GBS control or Retrotink5x to keep the PSX core from dropping sync during games, without adding a full frame of lag using the MiSTer scaler option. Some PSX games change video modes during the game. Someday, there will be N64 core games that will do the same thing. Using a DAC with MiSTer "low lag" is going to drop sync every time the video changes.

Yeah because all of my consoles are outputting HDMI. I was just wondering if anyone who owns an HD Fury 3 can tell me if it does/still have has the ringing/halo artifacting or if it's been fixed. Any difference between the 3 and X3, the difference between the 3/X3 and the 4/X4 and which one I should get.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Is the MiSTer analog output board not an R2R ladder with 1% resistors?

[https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardware_MiSTer/blob/master/releases/iobrd_6.1.pdf

1% components are better than 1% in practice but that's before factoring in EMI, thermal noise and unequal heat distribution. An R2R ladder is only going to be accurate to 6-bit RGB. I think that's fine for 8 and 16-bit consoles that didn't have 8-bit color spaces to begin with but not PSX/Saturn/N64. The resistor thermal noise gets ~40% worse when you upscale from SD to 480p/576p.

Using an external DAC or an HDMI to VGA converter, I don't see how an R2R ladder comes close in quality. Ladder is used because it's extremely cheap and 8-bit accuracy isn't always necessary.

Maybe I'm missing something. Sorry for derailing the original question.

[orange808]

Oh yes. There's a loss of quality on 24 bit textures.

The perceived damage depends on the software.

Many of the assets in your games are going to be 15 bit color or 5pbc. In some titles, it's all 15 bit during gameplay.

Some videos will employ full color depth. That should be less vibrant in theory. On the other hand, PSX video was so heavily compressed it doesn't make as much difference as it should. Anything animated or stylized, the damage is going to be even less apparent.

Multiple games did use the full 8 bit (255 colors + transparency) mode for some elements in gameplay. In practice, that means that some foreground models in 3d games or the backgrounds of 2d titles will have degraded appearance. It's easier to make the principal 3d models pop with more color. For a 2d background, it's easier to make "sprites" contrast against non-interactive backgrounds by using a large pallete for the background. Backgrounds also often use more shading and detail than your sprites.

There's another thing, too. Even when degraded, the Mister's degraded 6 bit color (from 8 bit native) will still carry more information than other PSX native 5 bit elements. To the naked eye in gameplay, the actual perceived loss is difficult to predict, because the textures that use more color still have a wider potential output. I also assume the PSX core doesn't just feed naked color data to the analog output to be truncated in a ham-fisted and uniform manner. Once again, the 8 bit dithering algorithm has six bits of color to target while the other native assets remain at the expected five bpc.

I'm not going to tell you the image isn't degraded, because it is. In practice, you have to boot up the games and look at them. I just explained why it's not always going to matter.

Assets didn't use uniform color depth and video compression was expensive.

It matters, but how much (and when)?

[Gunstar]

@RebeL9 might know, he's updated the firmware I believe. I'm not sure where I've put mine otherwise I could've tested if anything has changed on the 480p ringing issue

HDFury4 has a higher pixel clock of 225 mhz (vs 200 on the HDFury 3) if that matters, also supports HDMI 1.4 (vs 1.3). This is the only info I could find about X3 being the same as the 3:


Also picture quality ranked by HD Fury themselves:

Although I couldn't notice any PQ differences between the Nano GX or HDF3 (*480p ringing aside) but it's not like I had some objective test to properly ascertain that.

[kitty666cats]

One thing to consider is that the Nano GX is no longer sold, it's pretty much impossible to find. I never even see them for sale on eBay.

Also, AFAIK the HDFury 4 has forced scaling on the output...? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it scales everything to either 1080p or 1920x1200. Or maybe the scaling is optional, I'm not certain.

[Ikaruga11]

One thing to consider is that the Nano GX is no longer sold, it's pretty much impossible to find. I never even see them for sale on eBay.

Also, AFAIK the HDFury 4 has forced scaling on the output...? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it scales everything to either 1080p or 1920x1200. Or maybe the scaling is optional, I'm not certain.

Yeah. Also, it's recommended to use the 3D Fury firmware with the HD Fury 4 for better results, which is not included by default (the Scaler Firmware is). Not to mention it's over a $100 more expensive compared to the HD Fury 3.

So apparently the X3 and X4 are simply recolored versions of the 3 and 4 that coincided with the 10th Anniversary of HD Fury, hence the X. Apart from the different color and name, they seem to be the exact same devices.

[coderkind]

Does anyone use the Tendak with the MiSTer, and if so does it require additions like capacitors or resistors to get a proper picture?

[orange808]

A lot of people are saying the Tendak internals are unpredictable.

I haven't seen anything about Tendak mods. Is that a thing?

[Overkill]

Hi all,

I have an original HD Fury III, bought at release date. Now I've have taken it from the shelf, after some years boxed, to test it on my MiSTer. I want to confirm it works fine with console and arcade cores before upgrading to a digital board only, for a dual ram setup for the upcoming cores.

I found an issue: On SNES and NES cores I can only have video in PAL, otherwise I lose sync and get image for just a second. And I don't play PAL games.

Anyone found this issue? Those cores work great with cheap amazon DAC - HDMI to VGA with audio out. But image is worst.

Thanks and regards

[orange808]

I found an issue: On SNES and NES cores I can only have video in PAL, otherwise I lose sync and get image for just a second. And I don't play PAL games.

We know where the problem comes from. It's SNES sync jitter. It's curious that you don't have issues with PAL. I have no idea why.

Sync jitter in the SNES core is accurate hardware behavior. The issue was addressed here:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/SNES_MiSTer/issues/264

The NES dev explains that the NES core has granular timed control (the ability to "pause" execution). That allows the NES to avoid emulating jitter.

The SNES core doesn't have that ability. The SNES core has to implement a lot of complex additional hardware that appeared inside the carts, so there probably isn't enough gates. If someone wanted to find out if it's possible, that would mean writing an entirely new SNES core--knowing it may not work out. The gate limitation isn't really related to RAM, by the way. It may occur to you that dual RAM would provide more resources and fix the issue, but the machine doesn't work that way.

[Overkill]

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm still curious why I have issues on HD Fury III and have sync OK on cheaper DAC. I tried 2 unbranded and one from Lenovo and the 3 are OK for SNES Core.

I have changed the dipswitches on HD Fury to try to fix this, but won't work.

That's a pity because for me is a no go for the dual RAM setup with HDMI out only.

[orange808]

...I'm still curious why I have issues on HD Fury III and have sync OK on cheaper DAC...

That depends solely on each particular piece of video gear. Some things are more tolerant than others. It's a lottery.

For instance, I have a couple of recent Extron video processors that struggle with the NES and SNES jitter. In fact, I have multiple video machines that have problems, but most of them aren't good for games, so they aren't worth mentioning. The OSSC can struggle and there are specific recommendations to help mitigate the issue. Some displays are also known to have problems with the NES and SNES. It's a common issue.

If the DAC doesn't like the SNES core, I can't think of any good solutions for direct video SNES core output from the MiSTer using that DAC.

[Overkill]

It's finally working! I updated unit firmware to this one below, after asking about my issue on the HD Fury discord channel: https://www.overload.it/old/menu.php?la ... 709en.html

[orange808]

It's finally working! I updated unit firmware to this one below, after asking about my issue on the HD Fury discord channel: https://www.overload.it/old/menu.php?la ... 709en.html

Thanks so much for reporting back and sharing the link. It seems that many MiSTer users are hunting a reliable DAC.

Links go dead, so I've also archived the firmware here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/y95sygjo ... 3.zip/file

[kitty666cats]

The Neo firmware helps a lot with compatibility, the HDFury 3 stock firmware is very uncooperative with PS4. Once I updated it to Neo, it worked great. I wonder if the Neo firmware also fixes the ringing issues that some people seem to have (but myself and several others I know don't have)

[Unseen]

It's SNES sync jitter. It's curious that you don't have issues with PAL. I have no idea why.

If I remember correctly the SNES only adds jitter to the signal for interlaced output in PAL mode and for progressive in NTSC mode. Most games use progressive, so you will rarely see it on PAL.

[fernan1234]

The Neo firmware helps a lot with compatibility, the HDFury 3 stock firmware is very uncooperative with PS4. Once I updated it to Neo, it worked great. I wonder if the Neo firmware also fixes the ringing issues that some people seem to have (but myself and several others I know don't have)

The firmware probably just ignores HDCP. I'd be surprised if it has an effect on the ringing though. Also if I recall correctly you haven't tested your HDFury with the resolutions that have been reported to have ringing (480p, 480i, 240p) so for all we know yours might have it as well.

[kitty666cats]

The Neo firmware helps a lot with compatibility, the HDFury 3 stock firmware is very uncooperative with PS4. Once I updated it to Neo, it worked great. I wonder if the Neo firmware also fixes the ringing issues that some people seem to have (but myself and several others I know don't have)

The firmware probably just ignores HDCP. I'd be surprised if it has an effect on the ringing though. Also if I recall correctly you haven't tested your HDFury with the resolutions that have been reported to have ringing (480p, 480i, 240p) so for all we know yours might have it as well.

Tested 480p, didn’t see any issues. I’m in a CRT-focused Discord and quite a few people have tested 240p from MiSTer with no issues. Mysterious!

[Overkill]

Well, I only tested 240p also. Didn't notice anything, but my eyes are not the same they used to be!

But I can see the overall image is much better than my cheap amazon DAC. The Lenovo adapter is not bad, but didn't even have audio out.

Now, with the HD Fury III and this Neo FW everything seems to be working fine, so I can finally move to a Digital IO Board and Dual RAM setup for the upcoming Cores.

[kitty666cats]

Well, I only tested 240p also. Didn't notice anything, but my eyes are not the same they used to be!

But I can see the overall image is much better than my cheap amazon DAC. The Lenovo adapter is not bad, but didn't even have audio out.

Now, with the HD Fury III and this Neo FW everything seems to be working fine, so I can finally move to a Digital IO Board and Dual RAM setup for the upcoming Cores.

Yeah, the problem with a lot of the cheapo DACs (and not just ones with the common crappy AG6200 chipset) is that they output/ are expecting an oddball RGB range of 16-255 rather than limited range 16-235 or full range 0-255. HDFury 3 outputs a proper full range 0-255.

All this being said, it's still tough to warrant spending $100+ USD for an HDFury 3. I lucked out and got a NIB one on Facebook Marketplace for $40 USD, and used ones can often be found on eBay for less than $100. So, for folks who really want one, I'd keep an eye on eBay (maybe set up a "HDFury 3" notification)

[fernan1234]

Well, I only tested 240p also. Didn't notice anything, but my eyes are not the same they used to be!

It may be you have a good unit! I was thinking whether the ringing only becomes obvious on certain CRTs, particularly on very sharp ones. When I was using an HDFury 3 and noticed it, I was using a BVM-D24. I can also imagine it'd be noticeable on PC CRTs, which may be what the OSSC user reported some time ago.

[kitty666cats]

I noticed on this link w/ the Neo firmware posted earlier ( https://www.overload.it/old/menu.php?la ... 709en.html ) that they do not support the Neo firmware on the white models of the HDFury 3. I wonder if those (presumably older) white models are more susceptible to this ringing that some people have come across...?

[fernan1234]

I noticed on this link w/ the Neo firmware posted earlier ( https://www.overload.it/old/menu.php?la ... 709en.html ) that they do not support the Neo firmware on the white models of the HDFury 3. I wonder if those (presumably older) white models are more susceptible to this ringing that some people have come across...?

Interesting. Not being compatible with the same firmware would pretty much confirm that they are using different hardware across these units. The unit I had was a white one too so that would also be anecdotal evidence. Sounds like the black units are the ones to go for (if you can find a good deal for a second hand unit).

[SuperSpongo]

I gotta say, HDFury has so many products and dead old websites that it's becoming quite annoying. I don't really want to join a Discord server for firmware.
Their products are not available here anymore but I saw a used "3DFury". Seems to be another niche-case product, but also features a DAC.

If anybody is on the Discord server, could you find out whether this thing also has some kind of jailbreak firmware?
I also have an HDFury2 and Nano GX. Are there any firmware updates worth flashing for those? I read somewhere in this forum that the HDF2 is supposed to have a newer firmware that fixes something with gamma.

[Fudoh]

3DFury is the same as a (X)4, just a different firmware on it. As far as I know you can run all the firmwares on it, basically switching between 3D functionality and scaling capability.

[SuperSpongo]

Thanks fudoh, that's how I understood it as well. Although I did read "Black Edition" on that one italian site and didn't know, whether it would only work one way and not the other (X4 to 3DF, vice versa). A little confusing to say the least

[kitty666cats]

I gotta say, HDFury has so many products and dead old websites that it's becoming quite annoying. I don't really want to join a Discord server for firmware.
Their products are not available here anymore but I saw a used "3DFury". Seems to be another niche-case product, but also features a DAC.

If anybody is on the Discord server, could you find out whether this thing also has some kind of jailbreak firmware?
I also have an HDFury2 and Nano GX. Are there any firmware updates worth flashing for those? I read somewhere in this forum that the HDF2 is supposed to have a newer firmware that fixes something with gamma.

AFAIK the Nano GX doesn’t have any firmware updates…? Wasn’t aware the HDF2 had one. I suggest joining the Discord, as they will only share firmware links via private message