R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

[To Far Away Times]

I finished Superstars. You get what's on the tin, pretty much.

A middling game with some good things lifted straight from other games (physics, classic sonic design) and uninspired everything else. The game never has asinine creative decisions like Sonic 4's losing momentum while rolling down hill, or human/hedgehog romances, guns, edgy hedgehogs out of the early 2000's, werehogs, or Generation's seemingly randomly faked 2D physics, etc... Superstars is just really uninspired and average in everything. Which I guess puts it in the upper echelon of post 1994 Sonic games, but this game isn't fit to lick Mania's boot. Oh yeah and Mania was a third of the price with beautiful sprite work and animation alongside a great soundtrack and excellent level design. So this being $60 is kinda taking the piss.

The first two levels are pretty good but the game drops off quite a bit after that. It's like if Lost Izalith from Dark Souls happened at the 25% mark.

[BrianC]

What is it about Arzest/Artoon botching the music in games? They also botched the music in Yoshi's Island DS and Yoshi's New Island. It doesn't even seem to matter who the composer is.

[cfx]

Having listened to the OST on youtube to make sure it wasn't going to annoy me before getting the game, it is pretty uninspired. But I'll take uninspired over that Crush 40 garbage that was in Sonic games far too often in the past.

[Sumez]

Every Sonic game should have an OST like Lost World. It's by far the best part of that game

[Steven]

Speaking of the music, there is a glitch with Super forms that causes the Super music and the stage music to play at the same time. How joyous. You can combine it with the regular invulnerability powerup music so you can have like 3 separate music tracks all playing simultaneously. Once you finish a stage while Super, the stage clear music (shamelessly stolen directly from Mania, BTW) doesn't play at all. They clearly didn't check Super transformations too much; aside from this, both of those times that I clipped outside of the game boundary somehow where when I was Super.

Speaking of Super, it's spoilers time.

Spoiler

Playing as Super Trip is supremely miserable. She's slow as hell and awkward to maneuver, which is not a great combination. I've never played a Sonic game where Super was not fun to use in normal gameplay before. Super Trip also can potentially bypass areas where you are supposed to change planes, which caused one of the instances of me clipping outside of the game. I got stuck in between planes or something and was forced to die to fix it.

Knuckles also jumps as high as everyone else now. I guess that makes sense given the multiplayer mode, and I'm pretty sure the only reason he couldn't in 3&K was just to prevent him from going into the Sonic/Tails areas.

He also does this weird wall jump thing if you try to climb on a wall when standing right next to it, which is super annoying. Super Knuckles doesn't climb super fast now, either; he's stuck climbing really slowly like normal. This is very disappointing, as the fast climbing was really good. Super Knuckles/regular Knuckles with invulnerability can climb on vertically-oriented spikes now, which is extremely weird, but it made me laugh, so it gets a pass. It makes me wonder if these spikes are actually considered to be part of the terrain with a hitbox instead of separate objects.

Everyone likes the Sonic 1 special stages, don't they?

I wish we could all collectively agree to flush that turd for good. Fucking hate that special stage. It gives me a headache in the eyes to look at it for too long.

Also wondering which genius came up with the idea of 4+ special stages for each normal stage of gameplay. Flow state? What is that? Medals are completely worthless too.

The worst part is when you're jumping around and one of the special stage entrances suddenly APPEARS IN FRONT OF YOU OUT OF NOWHERE!!!!! just as you're jumping over something or trying to jump on a platform and you get sucked in. NooooOOOoooooooooOOOO0000000000000zero00000000OoOoOoOoOoOo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't really mind having so many of them, but their placement is really annoying sometimes due to how they disrupt the normal game. They are easy, but because I have all of the Chaos Emeralds I end up intentionally failing the special stages so I can get back to the normal game faster.

this game isn't fit to lick Mania's boot

A true statement, but very few games are. It's infinitely more fit to do so than Sanic 4, however. Humanity doesn't deserve Sonic Mania, but we got it anyway. Unfortunately, every post-Mania game will be compared to Mania, and I doubt they're ever going to be that good ever again unless Sega gets the Mania devs back, but that's probably not going to happen. Superstars seems like a very amateur effort at best in comparison to Mania, but I don't think I'd actually call it bad, just not especially inspired.

The first two levels are pretty good but the game drops off quite a bit after that.

Speed Jungle is possibly the worst Zone in the entire game, so at least the game gets it out of the way immediately after the pretty good Bridge Island Zone. Bridge Island probably also has the best graphics of the entire game, too, and the graphics seem to get worse as you get further in the game. Maybe it's just me, but I got that feeling.

Overall it seems that a lot of the stage design after Bridge Island Zone is dedicated solely to the purpose of pushing the player forward with no regard for anything else. It's not especially engaging or interesting, and it can be annoying. A lot of the general concepts for the stages reminded me very heavily of Rayman Origins and Legends, but without those games' level of care for interesting stage design.

Never thought those weird circular things from Wacky Workbench would come back, but they are here. There are a few unexpected things from CD in this game, actually, but this was the one that surprised me the most. The spinning poles from CD weren't that unexpected after the circular things, though it's interesting to see them again.

Still, I think the game has potential that can only be discovered with more time spent playing, so I will wait for a while to give my final judgment.

[Steven]

I really wish this game had the peel-out. The animation for it is even in the game, but you can't do it. Sadness.

I fell out of the game boundary again. This shouldn't happen, but it does. I hope they fix it, but I don't know if it's something that can be fixed. I hope they fix this, fix the music glitches, and add the peel-out while they're at it.

Oh, and there is a reason to buy parts even if you never play online, BTW. Your custom thingy that you build with the parts

Spoiler

ends up being the boss of Cyber Station.

[cfx]

Haha, ok, that's cool. And another "reviewer" exposed for not actually playing all of the game, or not paying attention.

[Steven]

100% complete.

Never again.

Overall, I give it a 4 out of 10. If you have any game hardware at all that can play this game, you have game hardware that can play Sonic Mania, and you should do that instead.

Current 2D Sonic ranking

3 Complete
3 & K
Mania
CD
2
2 (with Knuckles)
Classic Heroes
1
3D Blast Director's Cut
3D Blast
Origins Sonic 1 as Tails (currently impossible to complete due to crashing)
Sonic Wings 2
Sonic Wings 3
Superstars regular story mode
Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car (yes, I have played this)
SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter Galaxy Patrol (this too)
Blue Sphere (have you gotten a perfect on all 134,217,728 stages yet? If not, I challenge you to do so!)
Tiny Chao Garden
1 (Master System)
Eraser
Somari
Spinball
Chaotix
Chao Karate
Studium/Crackers
Advance 2
SegaSonic Popcorn Shop
Blast
Superstars post-game stuff
Sanic 4
game.com Sonic Jam

[ryu]

I played the first 4 zones last night and agree that it's not a good game. Although I think it would at least be somewhat fun if it had game overs instead of infinite lives.

[Steven]

Yeah, it's not a bad game, but it isn't that great. Then it falls apart completely once you do the post-game stuff, which is why you'll be glad that the game has infinite lives if you go for 100% completion.

Just now realized that I forgot to put Tiny Chao Garden and Chao Karate in my ranking. Oops.

[Sumez]

Sonic Wings 3 that low?

[cfx]

3D Blast Saturn or Megadrive? If it's Saturn, I'm probably in agreement with your list to that point anyway, except I just don't like Sonic 3 in either form, and I probably can't properly explain why. It just feels bloated, and I also hate the weird dithered graphics, which look much worse than the pixel are in the other games, and also make the action harder to follow.

I know that's a very minority opinion though.

[BrianC]

100% complete.

Never again.

Overall, I give it a 4 out of 10. If you have any game hardware at all that can play this game, you have game hardware that can play Sonic Mania, and you should do that instead.

Current 2D Sonic ranking

3 Complete
3 & K
Mania
CD
2
2 (with Knuckles)
Classic Heroes
1
3D Blast
Origins Sonic 1 as Tails (currently impossible to complete due to crashing)
Sonic Wings 2
Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car (yes, I have played this)
SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter Galaxy Patrol (this too)
Sonic Wings 3
Tiny Chao Garden
1 (Master System)
Eraser
Somari
Spinball
Superstars
Chaotix
Chao Karate
Studium/Crackers
Advance 2
SegaSonic Popcorn Shop
Blast
Sanic 4
game.com Sonic Jam

You forgot Sonic Boom.

I had the same impression of Sonic Blast, but I don't feel it's as bad as its rep after playing it a bit more. Some surprisingly good boss and level designs. Definitely one of the ugliest Sonic games, though.

[null1024]

Blast isn't a good game, but it definitely doesn't deserve to be treated as some kind of hyper-kusoge like I've seen people describe. It's just a normal not great game with kind of ugly graphics. There are like dozens upon dozens of worse GG games.

That also reminds me -- Labyrinth probably doesn't deserve as much hate as it gets either since most people didn't get anywhere near far enough to really judge it [and I think the basic mechanics are fun too, it's basically a golf game], but stage 3-2 onwards really blows chunks, and absolutely fuck Labyrinth of the Castle in its entirety. The game gets bad eventually, but most people I've seen act like it's immediately terrible and it really isn't.

[Steven]

Sonic Wings 3 that low?

Yeah, I am going to move it up. I don't like it as much as Sonic Wings 2, but it's a good game.

You forgot Sonic Boom.

I actually thought about it but left it off because I have only played it for like 2 or 3 minutes on the Astro City Mini.

3D Blast Saturn or Megadrive?

Genesis. I want to play Saturn 3D Blast but it's super expensive and very hard to find here! I've only seen one copy in the 10 years I have been here and it was sealed and the price was equivalent of about $300 USD.

Used is about half that price: https://www.suruga-ya.jp/product/detail/141001211

[cfx]

3D Blast Saturn or Megadrive?

Genesis. I want to play Saturn 3D Blast but it's super expensive and very hard to find here! I've only seen one copy in the 10 years I have been here and it was sealed and the price was equivalent of about $300 USD.

Used is about half that price: https://www.suruga-ya.jp/product/detail/141001211

Wow. I forgot about how it was released in Japan, much later than the US version, and apparently in very small quantities. I think I still have two copies of the Japanese version but even at the time it wasn't that easy to get a new copy of. I had no idea it was that expensive now though. I think it was one of the last Saturn games released, or at least one of the very last first party ones?

I originally wrote Megadrive, but did it even release for the Megadrive in Japan? I don't remember. I've only played the Genesis version on a store demo station back at the time, so I'm not really sure how much difference there is, or isn't, in how it controls or plays in general. But the Saturn soundtrack is so much better that the overall experience of the game is pretty different I think. It's one of the soundtracks Richard Jacques did for Sega, and some aspects of it became standard for Sonic for quite some time, like the end of stage jingle. Not sure how many games used it but I know some after it did.

I always liked the game but reviews weren't good. I think they were a little unfair, in that it was clear many of them downgraded it just because it wasn't a "real" 3D game like Mario 64, or what was to come with Sonic on Dreamcast. I'd certainly rather play it than any of the Dreamcast Sonic games, which I pretty much hate.

[Steven]

I originally wrote Megadrive, but did it even release for the Megadrive in Japan?

Yeah, there is no Japanese Mega Drive 3D Blast at all. It doesn't exist. The core game is identical between MD and Saturn aside from the special stages, which are supposedly the best in the entire series, the graphics, and the music. As far as I know, none of the Saturn music ever reappeared anywhere, but Sonic Adventure famously uses an arranged version of MD Green Grove Act 1 music for Windy Valley. That's like the entire reason that I replay Windy Valley more than any of the other stages in the game, too.

I actually really like 3D Blast. People hate it because it's different and because it was the replacement for Sonic Xtreme, but it's actually a good game, and I greatly prefer it over all of the actual 3D Sonic games aside from Sonic R. Might have something to do with me not knowing about Xtreme until like 2019 or so. Pretty sure those who knew about Xtreme probably still hate 3D Blast. I do want to eventually play the Saturn version, but damn is it expensive and it's barely different from the version I've been playing since it launched. I'd actually rather get reacquire the Genesis cart instead, though.

[cfx]

I originally wrote Megadrive, but did it even release for the Megadrive in Japan?

Yeah, there is no Japanese Mega Drive 3D Blast at all. It doesn't exist. The core game is identical between MD and Saturn aside from the special stages, which are supposedly the best in the entire series, the graphics, and the music. As far as I know, none of the Saturn music ever reappeared anywhere, but Sonic Adventure famously uses an arranged version of MD Green Grove Act 1 music for Windy Valley. That's like the entire reason that I replay Windy Valley more than any of the other stages in the game, too.

I was mainly referring to the end of stage fanfare, which I was sure was reused in other Sonic games, but now I can't find any evidence of that, so I am probably crazy. This game's soundtrack, Japanese SonicCD, and Sonic R are my favorite Sonic soundtracks.

I actually really like 3D Blast. People hate it because it's different and because it was the replacement for Sonic Xtreme, but it's actually a good game, and I greatly prefer it over all of the actual 3D Sonic games aside from Sonic R. Might have something to do with me not knowing about Xtreme until like 2019 or so. Pretty sure those who knew about Xtreme probably still hate 3D Blast. I do want to eventually play the Saturn version, but damn is it expensive and it's barely different from the version I've been playing since it launched. I'd actually rather get reacquire the Genesis cart instead, though.

The thing with that is, all those early pictures of Sonix Xtreme were just some artist concept type things, and while they looked cool with the weird fisheye camera effect, they didn't really even resemble something that could actually be played. I think the other basis of comparison was the 3D world thing you wandered around in in Sonic Jam, and I hated that thing; the weird camera angle for it made me feel ill. I guess it also maybe wasn't liked because it's not a fast game really, which never bothered me; I like playing the 2D games "wrong" and exploring without necessarily making much use of speed too.

Isometric view action games just don't seem to be too popular in general, unless they're called Diablo or one of its many clones.

[Steven]

I was mainly referring to the end of stage fanfare, which I was sure was reused in other Sonic games, but now I can't find any evidence of that, so I am probably crazy. This game's soundtrack, Japanese SonicCD, and Sonic R are my favorite Sonic soundtracks.

That itself is reused from Sonic 3, although the tempo is slower in both versions of 3D Blast.

I like playing the 2D games "wrong" and exploring without necessarily making much use of speed too.

You must like CD and Mania lot; CD is built for that purpose and Mania's stage design was heavily influenced by CD. I still find new stuff in Mania on occasion, including when I played it a few days ago while waiting for Superstars.

[cfx]

I was mainly referring to the end of stage fanfare, which I was sure was reused in other Sonic games, but now I can't find any evidence of that, so I am probably crazy. This game's soundtrack, Japanese SonicCD, and Sonic R are my favorite Sonic soundtracks.

That itself is reused from Sonic 3, although the tempo is slower in both versions of 3D Blast.

You're right. As I'm used to the Blast version, that sounds too fast haha. It has been so long since I have played Sonic 3 I didn't realize it was there; that's definitely what I was remembering, or falsely remembering. I thought maybe it was some side game I had also heard it in, like the later racing games, but it doesn't appear to be there either so apparently I'm just wrong on that point.

I like playing the 2D games "wrong" and exploring without necessarily making much use of speed too.

You must like CD and Mania lot; CD is built for that purpose and Mania's stage design was heavily influenced by CD. I still find new stuff in Mania on occasion, including when I played it a few days ago while waiting for Superstars.

Yes, definitely for SonicCD. Probably Mania too, but I haven't really gotten to spend any real time with it yet.

Back when those games were new, I didn't even like Sonic and Sonic 2 that much, but CD I guess was exactly what I was looking for. It was kind of funny as I had owned a Wondermega, and had gotten so disillusioned with the games on CD that I got rid of it and replaced it with a Megadrive 2 just a little before SonicCD and Keio Yuugekitai came out, the type of games I had been waiting for. It was somewhat later I came to appreciate the first two games.

Oh, you mentioned the Saturn 3D Blast bonus stages. Yeah that's probably the best bonus stages at least in any Sonic I've played. They're fairly similar to the ones in Sonic 2, except with a much better framerate.

[SuperDeadite]

I was mainly referring to the end of stage fanfare, which I was sure was reused in other Sonic games, but now I can't find any evidence of that, so I am probably crazy. This game's soundtrack, Japanese SonicCD, and Sonic R are my favorite Sonic soundtracks.

That itself is reused from Sonic 3, although the tempo is slower in both versions of 3D Blast.

You're right. As I'm used to the Blast version, that sounds too fast haha. It has been so long since I have played Sonic 3 I didn't realize it was there; that's definitely what I was remembering, or falsely remembering. I thought maybe it was some side game I had also heard it in, like the later racing games, but it doesn't appear to be there either so apparently I'm just wrong on that point.

I like playing the 2D games "wrong" and exploring without necessarily making much use of speed too.

You must like CD and Mania lot; CD is built for that purpose and Mania's stage design was heavily influenced by CD. I still find new stuff in Mania on occasion, including when I played it a few days ago while waiting for Superstars.

Yes, definitely for SonicCD. Probably Mania too, but I haven't really gotten to spend any real time with it yet.

Back when those games were new, I didn't even like Sonic and Sonic 2 that much, but CD I guess was exactly what I was looking for. It was kind of funny as I had owned a Wondermega, and had gotten so disillusioned with the games on CD that I got rid of it and replaced it with a Megadrive 2 just a little before SonicCD and Keio Yuugekitai came out, the type of games I had been waiting for. It was somewhat later I came to appreciate the first two games.

Oh, you mentioned the Saturn 3D Blast bonus stages. Yeah that's probably the best bonus stages at least in any Sonic I've played. They're fairly similar to the ones in Sonic 2, except with a much better framerate.

In that case, I'd recommend Sonic Pocket Adventure. To fully complete it you need to explore the stages to find all the puzzle pieces.

[XoPachi]

https://x.com/MegamixMania/status/17157 ... 56857?s=20

[null1024]

There's a lot of footage of Xtreme and well... as cool as it looked, what the absolute fuck were they thinking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzvS_be ... y0jgtYbP2p
This is from the PC version, and all I'm thinking is like, "how do they intend to run this on Saturn at any reasonable speed?" [spoiler: they didn't get it running at any reasonable speed on the machine, they wanted to backport from PC and the entire project just ate shit].

I want to like 3D Blast, but the field of view is narrow and running around looking for the one enemy you missed [or the one Flicky you dropped later on] just isn't fun. Gorgeous game though, and has some really cool music. Was one of the few pre-rendered games I liked the look of when I was younger. I've warmed up a lot to the whole rendered "SGI" look as I've gotten older, but I hated it back then.

[Steven]

I had owned a Wondermega, and had gotten so disillusioned with the games on CD that I got rid of it

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


That's like a $3000 USD game system now if you get it CIB. It is the only Mega Drive that doesn't have RGB, but it is the only Mega Drive that does have S-video. Not a great trade, but better than composite. I see them on rare occasions in town. Most of them are the RG-M2 version, but I have seen a single RG-M1 without its stickers and a random RG-M1 controller that was about 7000 yen all by itself.

[cfx]

I had owned a Wondermega, and had gotten so disillusioned with the games on CD that I got rid of it

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


That's like a $3000 USD game system now if you get it CIB. It is the only Mega Drive that doesn't have RGB, but it is the only Mega Drive that does have S-video. Not a great trade, but better than composite. I see them on rare occasions in town. Most of them are the RG-M2 version, but I have seen a single RG-M1 without its stickers and a random RG-M1 controller that was about 7000 yen all by itself.

Wow. I had the RG-M1, Sega version. I got it new at a now long-defunct import shop, I think it was $600 or $650; still in the period when imports here tended to have quite a markup from most sources.

Back at that time I didn't even have internet access, so RGB in the US was like some black magic that I didn't know enough about to use, even though I had a PVM-2530 that I used for my TV. So I appreciated the S-Video on the Wondermega at that time.

I later sold the Megadrive 2 as well, only to later rebuy it again. Back then I'd get disillusioned with a console and sell it, but learned to stop doing that and only would sell something that I was confident I never wanted again. That didn't happen often; the only one I can remember is the N64, which I have never missed after getting rid of.

[Lander]

There's a lot of footage of Xtreme and well... as cool as it looked, what the absolute fuck were they thinking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzvS_be ... y0jgtYbP2p
This is from the PC version, and all I'm thinking is like, "how do they intend to run this on Saturn at any reasonable speed?" [spoiler: they didn't get it running at any reasonable speed on the machine, they wanted to backport from PC and the entire project just ate shit].

Xtreme always was a fascinating curio. And the music! Terrible waste for that if nothing else.

I imagine they were thinking "wouldn't it be cool if..." and not much further looks terribly unituitive to control - you can see the demo player taking great care not to overshoot in situations where they have to move toward the camera. And some of those jumps from high places look like total deathtraps thanks to the tetrisphere effect.

I can see the fisheye thing being workable if it was just on the X axis - a bit like Lunatic Fringe from Duke Nukem. Hell, the sphere idea could probably still be pulled off with properly-considered design, but not for old-school sonic gameplay with no guardrails.

[To Far Away Times]

Xtreme was never going to be a hit with the fish eye lens camera, but the slower pace and more Mario 64 like 3D platforming was what the series should have evolved towards.

Sega should have learned not to mix high speed and platforming together after Sonic I̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶r̶i̶c̶ ̶2̶D̶ ̶B̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ 3D Blast.

[cfx]

Xtreme was never going to be a hit with the fish eye lens camera, but the slower pace and more Mario 64 like 3D platforming was what the series should have evolved towards.

Nah. More of that is the last thing we needed.

Sega should have learned not to mix high speed and platforming together after Sonic I̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶r̶i̶c̶ ̶2̶D̶ ̶B̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ 3D Blast.

This is true though, at least as far as the Sonic Adventure games go. I don't have enough experience with any 3D Sonic beyond that.

[Steven]

Origins has a new patch, FINALLY. Patch notes say Tails no longer breaks the game and that various bugs are fixed, although it doesn't mention what those are.

I thought Superstars did as well, but that's just because I decided to not read the notification properly.

[Lander]

Watching through the various Xtreme footage that's accrued over the years, I almost wonder if doubling down on weird projective effects would have helped; introduce a third axis of distortion to make depth compress relative to distance, so the player can see further into the sphere. Though draw distance / cell count is already pretty low, so perhaps just fixing that would do.

Someone appears to have salvaged a PC build at some point, which is probably the best rendition I've seen of the effect. Though the LIGHTING NEEDS TO BE REBUILT overlay is a tip-off that it's a reinterpretation by way of Unreal Engine rather than original / official code.

It seems the ever-prolific fan community actually got a version running on saturn hardware too; pretty impressive.

Sega should have learned not to mix high speed and platforming together after Sonic I̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶r̶i̶c̶ ̶2̶D̶ ̶B̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ 3D Blast.

For sure. I've thought for a long time that tying slow-and-precise / fast-fast-fast states to a trigger would be an easy way to merge the Adventure and Boost gameplay models to get the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately, they tried that and failed with Sonic Lost World, so the idea is probably dead and buried for good.