R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

ryu wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:16 am
Yes. I have no idea why people complain about Sonics's underwater zones. I even like Labyrinth Zone a lot.
Well, I explained my problems with them generally up above. Mainly an issue of the pace slowing down considerably, plus a new physics engine that can be hard to manage, leading to molasses gameplay in combination with not entirely feeling I'm in control of Sonic. Then you layer the breathing timer on top of that (complete with the most harrowing and evil retro timer music ever devised,) and the overall effect can be unpleasant at times. There are times when I die in the water levels and don't feel it's completely my fault. I think to myself, "I bet I wouldn't have made that mistake if I were using the above-water physics." Or "that bubble spawned exactly a half-second too late, causing me to die. Not sure what I could have done in that situation."

I'll fully admit to being dogshit at Sonic games. I'm not suggesting the games should be made easier. But maybe future titles could include an aquatic character, sort of like how Mighty serves as an easy mode for Sonic Mania's combat challenges. So if you struggle to deal with enemies or bosses, you can just pick Mighty. He has his own downsides though (no drop dash, slower progression, no flight) so it's a trade-off. Maybe players who don't like the underwater levels could pick "Mannfred the Mallard" or whatever the fuck, and he'd have more movement options in water. But still the same emphasis on the timer.

There are times when I just think the underwater levels become too slow, too plodding and too oppressive for their own good. I'm sure that's what some people love about those levels though.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

They could use Vector as an aquatic character. That would be cool, especially since he is the third oldest surviving character concept in the entire series but is rarely playable. Pretty sure the only official 2D game with playable Vector is Chaotix, although I may be forgetting something.

There is a really cool hack that adds Vector to Sonic 1, complete with his air dash and climbing abilities from Chaotix and the spin dash, so definitely check it out because it's cool to be Vector in that game and his air dash gets him through the water very quickly. He was originally supposed to be in Sonic 1 as an NPC but got cut, possibly because of time constraints, along with the rest of Sonic's band members, who were supposed to be rescued along the way through the game.
Lander wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:05 pm
Steven wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:45 pm It's always been comparatively easy to break collision in Sonic games, usually by jumping into a hill or something when moving at extremely high speeds, but here you don't even need to do that because you can easily fall outside the game boundary by simply using Knux's (now really slow) glide or something similar in the wrong place to end up between two separate planes on the Z axis. It's really somewhat concerning when this can be done as early as the first act in the first zone.
And the Z axis shouldn't even factor into a 2D gameplay simulation, amateur hour! Even if it does nifty stuff like paths that branch in 3D, a good engineer would keep the traversible space 2D and partition it into a tree structure that you can't accidentally 'escape' from.
They definitely did not manage to get movement on the Z axis done correctly. If you jump over a bunch of stuff while moving fast and the platforms below you start to not align with your position on the Z axis, you can fall to your doom. Fortunately it isn't too big of a problem because I have not found that many places in the game where you can do it, but it still shouldn't be possible. I've done it in Bridge Island Act 1 and Frozen Base Act Tails so far, but I'd be surprised if there are not more places where it can be done.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by null1024 »

The only underwater stage I truly hate is Labyrinth. Lots of hard to avoid spikes while Sonic moves in slow-motion. Nothing like having a spike trap cycle twice while Sonic sloooooooooooowly goes over it.

On a related note, I did have a "fun" moment playing Tidal Plant in OG Sonic Triple Trouble to see if I still actually like that level [I do!], where the underwater physics had me slooooowly careening into an electrified enemy while I was running out of air. As I'm trying to hit the switch to spawn an air bubble after being launched away, I just barely miss it and drown.
Reasonably enjoyable stage, but water physics make for some deeply aggravating interactions.
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XoPachi
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

Sima Tuna wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:59 pm
I'll fully admit to being dogshit at Sonic games. I'm not suggesting the games should be made easier. But maybe future titles could include an aquatic character, sort of like how Mighty serves as an easy mode for Sonic Mania's combat challenges. So if you struggle to deal with enemies or bosses, you can just pick Mighty. He has his own downsides though (no drop dash, slower progression, no flight) so it's a trade-off. Maybe players who don't like the underwater levels could pick "Mannfred the Mallard" or whatever the fuck, and he'd have more movement options in water. But still the same emphasis on the timer.
Actually they kind of did. Tails can outright swim.
And with the introduction of spindashing you can get moving more quickly. Sonic games also tend to have odd but fun physics where once you get *up* to speed underwater, you are -fucking- flying. I never got it but I dont complain. Lol
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

I got the new OLED Steam Deck and although the first game I tested on it was Sonic Mania (it runs perfectly. Good bye Switch version! Never playing you ever again!), I also tried Sonic Generations and although it was kind of annoying to get it working, it was glorious once I did. Played through the entire first half of the game with no problems, which only took like 15 minutes because of how short the game is. It's kind of amazing to have this game running at max settings at 60FPS on a handheld. It will drop a frame or two on occasion, but it's otherwise excellent overall.

I wonder if the Switch could do this; it is technically a PS3 game, but then you look at Superstars, which is almost certainly less demanding, and the cuts that had to be made to mostly run that at 60FPS. Only real problem here is the battery life; I forget exactly what it said, but it predicted about 4 hours of battery. Maybe slightly more. Not great, but considering that I have the old launch version of the Switch, which probably gets about that much time on a heavy 3D game like this anyway, and likely at half of the framerate, I am quite satisfied. I have a feeling that the Switch probably could run this game at similar or slightly reduced settings, but developers probably would consider battery life a concern and lower the settings to increase battery life. I wish Colors and Superstars didn't have Denuvo or I'd get them on PC just for this. I am debating doing it anyway even though I know I shouldn't, especially for Colors.

The old delisted standalone version of CD and All-Stars Racing (the original, not Transformed; can't buy that here because of the region lock) are next on the list of games to test. Origins works, although I need to move my mods over to the Steam Deck.
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Baby step achieved

Post by Lander »

I see it now - Dream Team is Sega's response to Bowser's Fury and / or Spark 3; take series-familiar 3D gameplay, and lift it into a mini-sandbox playground framework for more player agency.
Not quite the full structural upheaval I was hoping for, since there's still a lot of boosting along longwide tracks and rails between open areas, but binning forced 2D sections is a major step forward that Sonic Team have been dawdling on for fucking ever. Fingers crossed they don't regress!

Theme-wise... Ayup, that's a modern Sonic game. Invent a new world with accompanying guide character (I see your cheeky R.E.M. acronayme there) and off they go to the races. Bit odd to invoke the Kingdom Hearts inverted fall imagery in the intro, seeing as the rest is as genki as it gets, but whatever - nicely animated.

Though man, Sonic's VA sounds real tired these days. Feels like like he'd be more at home with an eyepatch and cigar in a double-gritty modern SatAM reimagining, drawling out cliches about how war never changes :lol:
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

God yeah. Its probably the first full 3D game in like 18 years.
I wish some of these places werent so open and flat though.
This looks immediately more fun than Frontiers but thats an exceedingly low bar.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

New Superstars patch removed the infinite Super glitch. I was hoping they'd never fix it, but I am surprised that it took this long.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

I played Dream Team at a friends. Beat it in one sitting.
It's mid. Apple can keep this. Lol

The levels are mostly fine. The mission structure is fine. But it has a lot wrong with it.

The game is 4 worlds....
4 worlds and I wanna say 3 levels each. So thats 12 unique layouts across 4 themes and the last area is bland slapdash nonsense like it just wanted to get itself over with.

I dont know what is up with Sonic lately but the audio mixing in this game is the worst I've ever seen from a major publisher. SuperStars had this problem but it is unbelievably so much worse in Dream Team.
The music, which is mostly boring and forgettable after Scrambled Shores, is so incredibly low while the voices are piercingly sharp and sudden. The terrible, flat sfx have no consistency in volume and things can have a deafening stacking effect like when you unlock a bunch of items at once. The fanfare mashing through the notifications was ear splitting as it played on top of itself getting louder as it did. And the VA is Sonic's worst yet. I'm so serious. Rouge's voice being the worst. I was expecting that because it was bad in TSR. But now everyone has single take, awkward sounding VA. From action sounds to the disjointed flat cutscene dialogue.

Boosting needs to go. I love boosting in Sonic games. But only when theres spectacle, application, or most importantly a resource tight rope. This game has none of those. It's there as a throwaway formality. It's infinite because it just recharges as fast as you spend it with almost no delay. It doesnt look exciting. It doesnt have any interesting use cases beyond extremely telegraphed jumps to other paths. It's there to be there and it doesnt provide anything interesting anymore.

There is a lot more to get into BUT there is some good...

-6 characters up front is nice. Granted its more like 3 since none of the characters have unique abilities but still.

-I like Rouge and Cream just being included. People think that these two *need* to be accompanied by their "teams" but Sonic Heroes was 20 years ago. You dont need to have Shadow or Omega tagging along just because the bat is here. I like Rouge just being included in stuff like how shes a mainstay in Prime.

-Ariem cute

-The levels are FULL 3D. Theres none of the 3D to 2D shit that even wack ass Frontiers horribly implemented. It was a cute call back in Unleashed and acceptable there because there was a very even split of 3D and 2D sections. But they went overkill on that ever since. I want THREE DEE Sonic for once.

-It is very straightforward. Theres no dumb gimmick nonsense. You are platforming from A-B. That's it.
And even when you need to grab things, you are just following different routes performing platforming challenges on structured linear paths to get to it. Simple.
You aren't using a dumbass radar and hints. Theres no cars. Theres no fishing. Theres no terrible autoscrolling flying missions. There's no goofy challenge missions where you play ping pong with music notes against Vector. You aren't finding dumbass Koroks and doing terrible square-peg-in-square-hole Zelda puzzles. You arent stopping to do glorified QTE "combat". Bosses don't take 40 years.
You are simply running and jumping.
For all its faults, the game is refreshingly focused.

-It's 3 levels a world but they're big and boast replay value as they have shit loads of paths. As you unlock characters, more paths and missions become available to you with new gimmicks and unique layouts for the different characters. While the game is short, these levels do see organic replayability. Just get used to the same themes...

Its *worth* playing but its not...great. SuperStars is the WAY better Sonic offering.


(I dont want to comment on control because I didnt play it in the best environment. My friend got a new TV and the delay from an input to an action was like an insane 30 frames of lag.
It has a game mode latency reduction option but it doesnt recognize Apple TV because $2400 smart TV's are incredible products!!!

So it wouldnt be fair to really comment on the feel of Dream Team with that huge external disadvantage. I'll leave that to one of you.)
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Boost gameplay has been needing to go for a long time. But I don't think it ever will. Sega seem curiously attached to such a shitty idea.

"Hey, you know this game where gaining, maintaining and using speed is the primary skill check? How about if we include one button the player can hit that automatically sets speed to max? Brilliant!"

Then fuck up the physics engine as they always do by being lazy, so there's no true momentum, and you've got modern 3d sonic.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

There are ways that something like even boosting can be made to give a different nuanced, spin on things and keep a decent skill floor/ceiling. Sonic doesn't have to only be about rolling down a hill to gain speed.
Manual boosting was at it's best in Sonic Rush because it was a very rapidly depleting resource and you had to find opportunities spam tricks to keep it topped off. And you can use it in those games to make absolutely ridiculous jumps with good timing. If you're not trying to go for all of those tricks and save time taking more daring paths (sometimes avoiding trick opportunities), you absolutely run out of boost. The initial burst being it's fastest and most expensive makes for interesting skill expression on ramps and hills. But they never wanted to push it further.
I was fine with it at first in the 3D games because at least the levels on their own were a lot of fun and beautiful. But Dream Team (and Forces and Frontiers) aren't nearly on the level of those.

But it's clear that, as I said, it's just an aged, thoughtless formality at this point that they don't want to even try to do anything with. And we know why.... Most gamers suck and the most basic sense of speed is too hard for them. Gotta appeal to everyone.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

Today is December 23, 2023. It is the 25th anniversary of a famous Sonic game that you have probably never played: the original Dreamcast version of Sonic Adventure.

If you're not completely obsessed with Sonic, you're probably like "lol what I've played that game" and you're most likely wrong because there are two versions of Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast.

The first is the original Japanese version that has never been rereleased or even released outside of Japan and has some unique stuff and glitches that got removed or fixed in the international version, which is the one that all of the later releases were based on and was later released in Japan as Sonic Adventure International, so yes, Japan has two slightly different Sonic Adventures on the Dreamcast.

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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by cfx »

I "win" I suppose, since I bought an Asian Dreamcast and the Japanese version of this game quite some time before the console was ever released outside Japan.

A very hollow victory given how much I hated the game though. :(

Speaking in general as someone who loved the Japanese Saturn and for action games vastly prefers 2D over 3D, the Dreamcast was a big step down and disappointment in general.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Ouch, nostalgi-owned :(

I'll take some solace from having played the DC international release before DX. That has to count for something, right?
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

I have the original JP release and played a bit of it in a video game store (either Babbages or Gamestop) where the JP version of the game was shown off.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

Lander wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:40 pm Ouch, nostalgi-owned :(

I'll take some solace from having played the DC international release before DX. That has to count for something, right?
At least you can mod PC DX to be essentially on par with the Dreamcast versions and also add widescreen, but I don't know if there is anything the mods don't recreate or fix.

I am probably going to replay the original Japanese release on my launch Japanese Dreamcast (still in beautiful condition 25 years later!) for now, but I installed a bunch of mods last night for the first time and maybe I'll try it like that later. I've had the Steam version for a long time and never played it, but I've heard it's pretty bad.

I'm not even sure how I got the PC versions of SA1 and 2 because they are region locked and not in my Steam purchase history, but it seems that Sega has decided to remove the region lock next year... which makes me wonder why they don't do it right now instead of waiting. Hopefully they get rid of all of their other stupid region locks so I can finally buy Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed without having to take a trip to Guam.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Konsolkongen »

Sonic Adventure DX is a terrible version of a pretty good game, that I still really enjoy and play through regularly :)

Cybershell did a great video showing some of the differences.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SORYL5J1Heg
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

I played the game and I made it to Sky Chase.

I do not like Sky Chase.

As always when I replay this game, I turned off my Dreamcast so I don't have to play Sky Chase.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Konsolkongen »

Sky Chase isn’t very hard. I’m sure you can do it :)
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by BrianC »

My sample of the JP version almost turned me off of getting the US/Intl version. Camera got really funky in some areas, worse than the US/Intl version.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

Konsolkongen wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:32 pm Sky Chase isn’t very hard. I’m sure you can do it :)
But it's so boring~

Not sure if I'll replay the whole thing on Dreamcast since I want to try the PC mods, so I might only play Sonic's thing and then change to PC for the rest of it.

Edit: done with Sonic's thing. Fell through the floor twice in Sky Deck and once in Final Egg. I know people say that falling through the floor doesn't happen on Dreamcast, but it definitely does because it happens to me every single time I play the game on Dreamcast.

General thoughts: Sonic had at least two or three Japanese voice actors prior to Kanemaru taking the role in this game, but I do like Kanemaru the most out of all of Sonic's voice actors. His random English is kind of weirdly good, but I wish they'd given him a bit more to say. It's really weird when you finish the last boss and he's like "Hey guuuy~!また遊んでやるぜ!" and then you're just suddenly by Tails' house where Sonic runs down the side of a steep hill in a very awkward manner and jumps off a cliff, most likely into what would be a bottomless pit in normal gameplay, without anyone saying a word and his theme song gets awkwardly cut off to play the credits and restart said theme song from the start for some reason.

The camera is very terrible and caused me to die a few times due to not being able to see anything or control it properly. The game somehow feels quite unfinished due to how ridiculously unpolished it is. They did rush the game (I have a hard time thinking of a Sonic game that wasn't rushed and I'm pretty sure almost all of them were) and also delay it, as I think it was supposed to launch with the Dreamcast on November 27, but even with the delay it still somehow manages to feel like they shipped a beta version instead of a finished product.

It still has some cool stuff, though, like the music, art direction, really cool graphical effects that had probably not been done much on consoles before (and weren't able to be reproduced on the more powerful Gamecube lol), and how they tried and moderately succeeded in recreating the Sonic 3&K physics in 3D. Even now it's still the only time this has officially happened.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

So there's a port of Sonic Generations coming. I wonder if they'll remove the existing versions of Generations from digital stores like they did with Sonic Origins.

Also going to the Sonic Symphony World Tour in 10 days. Has anyone been to this? Probably not, considering how few shows and locations there are, but it seems that I am lucky enough to have a show that is extremely close to me. I was planning on going to see BUMP OF CHICKEN on that day but I couldn't get tickets (although I did get them for the tour final instead), so Sonic ended up being the substitute.

I also might get to meet Ohshima Naoto next month at some event. That would be pretty cool. I have every Sonic game he made, so hopefully I can get some signatures. Need to go get NiGHTS on Saturn too, since I somehow only have that on PC.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by ryu »

I was disappointed until I saw that they added new stages to the Generations rerelease. Definitely wouldn't buy the game again if all they did was add Shadow as playable character.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

I've been playing Generations recently on occasion and the modern Sonic stages are probably the best Sonic has ever been in 3D, aside from the S ranks being very easy. I'm not really sure what to think of this rerelease, but I'll almost certainly end up getting it, if only on PS5 to avoid shitty fucking Denuvo. Yeah, I know I complain about Denuvo a lot and I really don't want to even mention it at all ever, but it really is a terrible DRM.

The Shadow parts look interesting. He wasn't around until Adventure 2, so they don't have as much stuff to use for him. SA2, Heroes, Shadow, 06 (lol)... and Forces I guess? There aren't a lot of games where he's even playable.

I must say that even now the PC version of Generations still looks beautiful. It looks WAY better than Frontiers, even if Frontiers has more advanced graphics technology. Just more proof that great art direction is way more important than having more advanced techniques and hardware.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

I like Generations' 3d stages fine, although I'm not a huge fan of boost gameplay. But the 2d stuff I found rather bland and uninspired. Especially now that we can directly compare it to Sonic Mania.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Steven »

Generations 2D stuff is indeed terrible, mostly because the controls somehow feel impossibly unresponsive.

Most people seem to not like boost because you just run down a very linear hallway really fast holding the run button, which doesn't require much skill, but it's better than running down a very linear hallway really slowly (at least in comparison) like in Sonic Adventure 2 or the completely broken everything in Heroes. Heroes probably takes way more skill than most other Sonic games just because of how much effort and endurance it takes to put up with how dysfunctional it is.

I'd really like to see an official 3D Sonic attempt to use the 2D physics, and no, I don't mean Superstars lol. I think there was another patch for that game in January, but I don't know what it did. I might even just be wrong and thinking of the patch that killed the infinite Super glitch (that glitch was one of the few reasons I could tolerate some parts of the game, which is not a good sign), so who knows.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Lander »

Gosh, I was half-watching the Sony show thinking Sonic X Shadow was a full-blown sequel to Generations, and that SEGA have absolutely no fucking idea what they're doing.

Well, at least I'm only half right :mrgreen: if that apple arcade game was Sega's response to the free-roamy parts of Bowser's Fury, I guess this is their answer to the remaster duology pack-in element.

Though my answer to it is still but why? - does anyone, anyone at all, see that claw logo and associate it with good things? Shadow is a fine enough rival character if executed with restraint, but it baffles me that they'd call back to the shining example of not doing that as part of bringing the character back into series prominence.

Elephant in the room: Will they do Classic / Baby Shadow to line up with Sonic and Tails' stubby versions, or maintain the idea that he popped out of a vat fully-grown?
Last edited by Lander on Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by XoPachi »

I wonder how the modding scene will go now. Since there's going to be two Generations now, I wonder what will become the better of the two. Seems like a big boost for that scene in general. No doubt there will be higher quality assets and new ones to use.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Lander wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 6:33 pm Gosh, I was half-watching the Sony show thinking Sonic X Shadow was a full-blown sequel to Generations, and that SEGA have absolutely no fucking idea what they're doing.

Well, at least I'm only half right :mrgreen: if that apple arcade game was Sega's response to the free-roamy parts of Bowser's Fury, I guess this is their answer to the remaster duology pack-in element.

Though my answer to it is still but why? - does anyone, anyone at all, see that claw logo and associate it with good things? Shadow is a fine enough rival character is executed with restraint, but it baffles me that they'd call back to the shining example of not doing that as part of bringing the character back into series prominence.

Elephant in the room: Will they do Classic / Baby Shadow to line up with Sonic and Tails' stubby versions, or maintain the idea that he popped out of a vat fully-grown?
Shadow is the original Coldsteel the 'Edgehog: Ouch I Cut Myself. He's an awful character-a straight rip of Vegeta and the start of a lot of Sanic Team shamelessly stealing from Dragon Ball. Yes, I know Sanic went super saiyan in the classic games after collecting the dragem balls, but even so.

Sonc stories are awful and Shadow appeared in the games when the story took more of a front-seat. I think the only good Sonic story I ever encountered was Sonic Battle. :P
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