R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

[null1024]

It looks really neat. My single issue is that the colors genuinely kind of hurt to look at.

[XoPachi]

I'm glad mascot 3D platforming seems to be making more of an honest resurgence. Penny, Lightspeed Lina, The Big Catch, Ratchet, and Spark among others I think I'm missing make me happy to see.

[Steven]

Origins patch 2.0 is up on Switch, but no DLC for Amy or the Game Gear games yet. Nothing on PC at all yet. The most notable new addition is...

a new Sonic Team logo at the beginning. Yay~

They made the beginning of Hydrocity Act 2 different by adding a one-way platform to prevent you from going backwards at the beginning of the act. The hidden Cool Bonus leftover from Mania is still in 3&K for some reason, and the ramp in Hydrocity Act 2 still doesn't launch you high enough to get all of the rings, so they definitely didn't fix the broken physics. White water glitch is still present, as well, and the Sonic CD OP is still way too loud compared to everything else, which is still too quiet. The ugly filter is still present on everything, too, so the games all still look like shit. Great fucking job, Sega.

[Sima Tuna]

White water glitch going unfixed shows they really don't give a shit.

[Steven]

The most interesting thing about the white water glitch is that it's in the original Sonic 3, never got fixed for Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and now it's here in Origins but WAY easier to do and can be done anywhere where you have access to the electric shield and water. As far as I know, the only place you can do it in the original versions is Launch Base Act 2, but I never tested it. Imagine going through all of Hydrocity being unable to see underwater. That would suck, and you can do it in Origins if you want to.

[XoPachi]

Honestly aside from the comics, everything between Mania and the trailers for SuperStars has been poor. I dont know why people say Sonic fans have been eating because we have not unless you really like table scraps.
Two 4/10 movies, a terrible compilation, a shitty faux-Ubisoft game, a sterile racing game, Forces, and a bad remaster aren't exactly a good meal.

SuperStars looks like the first genuinely good thing from Sonic in 6 years.
I guess there was that joke April Fool's VN? Woooooooo...

[Sumez]

Sonic Superstars looks a lot of fun to me. I don't understand why some people are being negative about it, because not a single thing they've shown doesn't look good.
That said, I'm hesitant to look forward to it regardless. I don't think I can afford to expect any new 2D Sonic game to ever come close to what S3&K did and was at this point.

Freedom Planet was probably a much easier sell to people before Sonic Mania came out. Freedom Planet came out during a 2d Sonic drought IIRC.

Freedom Planet is still much better than Sonic Mania.
It's everything a 2D Sonic game should be, shedding the bindings of the franchise allows them to just completely ignore everything that holds back Sonic gameplay despite otherwise being an obvious derivative.

[Steven]

More testing reveals that

Amy kind of sucks in some ways but is cool in other ways. She gets a pass, I guess, although I think her sprites look kind of weird. Some of the sprites make her feet look enormous and it just looks really hideous. I've seen better color usage for her sprites in some ROM hacks, too.

They mapped Amy's hammer throw ability to the same button that flips gravity in Sonic 3&K's debug mode, making it ultra weird to use in that game when debug mode is active

The Super/Hyper Sonic super peel-out glitch that gets you permanently stuck in Angel Island Act 2 is still there

Drop dash still makes you do a 1-frame spin dash in every game except 3&K

The first new Knuckles route in CD is right at the beginning of Palmtree Panic. I was Amy when I found it, so I didn't actually take the route yet.

(Some?) mods cause the game to crash now. Hopefully the important ones get updated to become compatible again.

I have barely had time to play it, though, so I'm sure I will find more stuff they didn't fix. Also, yes, even the Japanese Switch and PS5 versions have Amy and stuff as a download code instead of being on the disc/card.

Also, this is what I got when I scanned the QR code on the back of the little slip case for the rubber coaster that comes with it: https://youtu.be/FfP6VH9EoOI

[XoPachi]

Sonic Superstars looks a lot of fun to me. I don't understand why some people are being negative about it, because not a single thing they've shown doesn't look good.
That said, I'm hesitant to look forward to it regardless. I don't think I can afford to expect any new 2D Sonic game to ever come close to what S3&K did and was at this point.

Freedom Planet was probably a much easier sell to people before Sonic Mania came out. Freedom Planet came out during a 2d Sonic drought IIRC.

Freedom Planet is still much better than Sonic Mania.
It's everything a 2D Sonic game should be, shedding the bindings of the franchise allows them to just completely ignore everything that holds back Sonic gameplay despite otherwise being an obvious derivative.

Freedom Planet is just kind of obnoxious to me in a lot of ways. I'd rather play most Sonic titles over both really.
But yes, SuperStars looks lovely and I've been on board since day one. Mario Wonder aesthetically looks better, but I'm just gonna grab both. Platformers are looking GOOD this year.

[Steven]

So Knuckles still can't go to Sonic's Marble Garden Act 2 boss without debug, but he can go to Sonic's Ice Cap Act 2 without crashing the game now. Yay~

You can now actually get the giant ring at the end of Hydrocity Act 2 as Sonic, but you still die at the beginning of the Act if you are standing in the wrong position at the end of Act 1. The infinite falling debris thing in Marble Garden is also fixed. They greatly reduced the amount of rumbling sound effects, so it sounds weird, but at least the glitch is gone. You can also finally jump off of the things in Act 2 properly. You know the ones. Right? Yeah, those ones.

Amy also has some weirdness going on when you try to use the Tails assist. Unlike Sonic, it is very difficult for her to just jump and have Tails grab her on the way up, although I did manage to do it once. You'll probably have to have Tails start flying, miss, have him descend far enough, and jump again. It's very annoying.

I'll keep checking stuff, but this is what I have found so far.

Also Amy's color palette differs between games. In Sonic 1 and 2 it's a lighter pink and in CD and 3&K it's darker. Yes, I checked using Paint and it really is different. Why is this like this?

[Steven]

Oh cool, Sonic Frontiers has new stuff for Sonic's birthday. With all of the birthday decorations, it actually looks more like a Sonic game now! Apparently the spin dash is ridiculously powerful, but I haven't really messed around with it because I have been too busy checking out stuff in Origins Plus.

They added some new challenges to get pieces of some new artwork. I got every piece and your reward for doing so is that the game puts the commands to access the stage select menus in the tutorial section. You know, the ones everyone already knew about since 1991~1994? Yeah, those ones. Yay~

[Despatche]

I just wanna say that Sonic Superstars and SMB Wonder seem a lot alike in spirit, and I am once again convinced that Nintendo and Sega have just talked to each other constantly for decades now.

Ratchet

Well Ratchet never truly went on the backburner. It survived when all others died. Remember, we still have no new Jak game, because the clown currently running Naughty Dog apparently hates Jak. Yeah, it takes a while for a new Ratchet now, but that's just game development these days. I'm sure they're already working on a next game.

Two 4/10 movies

What. The movies were great. The hell.

Like I get it, Sonic fans cannot truly enjoy anything, but the movies were genuinely great.

[Sumez]

Freedom Planet is just kind of obnoxious to me in a lot of ways. I'd rather play most Sonic titles over both really.

You really do need to skip every story scene in Freedom Planet. That should make the obnoxious go away.
In terms of gameplay and level design, it's brilliant, and does a lot of things I wish the Sonic series would start "experimenting" with. I guess most importantly it doesn't feel mandated to go fast constantly due to some sort of trademark value, but just utilizes the fast movement speed whenever it feels good to blaze ahead, while meshing much better with the slower parts of a stage, allowing for more sensible obstacles. Boss battles especially are a real highlight I think, which was never the case in any Sonic game, 2D or 3D.

Remember, we still have no new Jak game, because the clown currently running Naughty Dog apparently hates Jak.

Man the Jak games are great. It was pretty sad to see Naughty Dog give up that in the favor of junk like Uncharted and TLOU

[Steven]

I just wanna say that Sonic Superstars and SMB Wonder seem a lot alike in spirit, and I am once again convinced that Nintendo and Sega have just talked to each other constantly for decades now.

They do seem alike, which is why I am interested in and will get both of them. Mario isn't normally something that I am especially interested in, but this time is different.

As for the movies... I actually kind of really liked most of the second one and I wish I'd gotten to see it in the theater, but it got a more limited theatrical release here and none of the locations were especially convenient for me. It felt more Sonic-like than the first movie, at least, and Knuckles was awesome. It's worth watching just for Knuckles.

[XoPachi]

You really do need to skip every story scene in Freedom Planet. That should make the obnoxious go away.
In terms of gameplay and level design, it's brilliant, and does a lot of things I wish the Sonic series would start "experimenting" with. I guess most importantly it doesn't feel mandated to go fast constantly due to some sort of trademark value, but just utilizes the fast movement speed whenever it feels good to blaze ahead, while meshing much better with the slower parts of a stage, allowing for more sensible obstacles. Boss battles especially are a real highlight I think, which was never the case in any Sonic game, 2D or 3D.

Even the levels bothered me because they killed flow entirely too often. Slow segments are fine if I'm able to figure them out and blitz them. But most of the time you straight up just...can't. And that annoys me. If the game is emulating a series about earning speed and the characters go fast, it feels like a troll move to throw me into sections when regardless of how good I am I can't have that satisfaction.
And the bosses were spastic things moving all over the place frequently going off screen. I only remember the obnoxious plasma hedgehog thing but I wanted to get the fights over with. They're better in 2 at least. Everything's better in 2 really, but it has it's own issues that bug me outside of the levels.

What. The movies were great. The hell.

Like I get it, Sonic fans cannot truly enjoy anything, but the movies were genuinely great.

mkay

[null1024]

Sonic movie 1 just isn't that great. I truly do not understand why it was so highly rated, other than "it's a video game movie that isn't unwatchable". It just doesn't feel very... Sonic. Has its moments, at least.
2 is better by a lot and by the end really nails the tone and feeling I'd expect in a Sonic movie, but still is pretty rough in parts.

Like I get it, Sonic fans cannot truly enjoy anything

Nah, fuck off with that BS.
20+ years of absurd mismanagement and a lack of direction will make anyone jaded and bitter. In the 00s, Sonic practically survived on the strength of the handheld offerings, since like, Heroes, Shadow, and 06 were increasingly baffling messes [I have a much better opinion of Heroes now than I did 20 years ago, but fuck man, it still isn't a great game; Shadow is fucking trash as a game, and 06 is in the worst "fuck it we ship" state I've ever seen from an actual big-name developer], and then even Unleashed was like 1h of very good Sonic gameplay and then the entire rest is pure padding and combat pulled straight out of fucking Virtua Quest lmao. Colors and Generations seemed like things were looking up again [these games came out over 10 years ago, and even if people bitch about Colors now, at the time, it was considered a fucking godsend that a handful of dumb padding acts and lame bosses were all you had to complain about instead of entire gameplay styles being shit], and then things have been oddly rocky since then.

Other franchises don't survive the kind of quality swings that Sonic has. I'm willing to argue that Sonic is an absurdly strong brand despite Sega's efforts.

Sonic Superstars looks a lot of fun to me. I don't understand why some people are being negative about it, because not a single thing they've shown doesn't look good.
That said, I'm hesitant to look forward to it regardless. I don't think I can afford to expect any new 2D Sonic game to ever come close to what S3&K did and was at this point.

Sega has managed to fumble with Sonic in situations that should have been pure slam dunks.
Given that the handling is apparently competently done though, I'm letting myself be excited.

Freedom Planet is still much better than Sonic Mania.
It's everything a 2D Sonic game should be, shedding the bindings of the franchise allows them to just completely ignore everything that holds back Sonic gameplay despite otherwise being an obvious derivative.

I always felt that the biggest issue it had is that it looks like a Sonic game without really playing like one. It's still quite good, although I personally think saying it's better than Mania is a bit nuts.

[Sumez]

I don't know, I had a ton of fun with it, I had very little fun with Sonic Mania, so it's a simple equation for me.
Sonic Mania is the kind of game I'd really love to enjoy on the surface, especially given how much I love S3&K, and the game trying very hard to mimick that in terms of presentation. It just falls apart when I try to approach it as a game. :\ At first it had me wonder if Sonic 3 had those same issues and I was just blinded by nostalgia. But then I replayed it (for the 30th time), and it really doesn't.

[Despatche]

20+ years of absurd mismanagement and a lack of direction will make anyone jaded and bitter.

No, I'm not putting up with this garbage anymore, never again. The problems have always been in the fanbase, nothing about that wretched "community" makes any sense.

This series has very few genuinely bad games, yet at the same time Sonic was never really good. The series gets considerably more interesting once you hit the 3D years, yet Adventure was never the drastic transformation that something like Super Mario 64 was. Games like Adventure, Colors, and Mania are somehow simultaneously God and the devil at all times. The narrative always demands that you stop after Generations and resume with Mania, yet Lost World is better than Colors and Forces is no worse than Generations. The unhinged turnaround on Dimps's games would make the Pokemon fanbase blush. I'm not even going to get started on that wretched 2006 game, a tear in the fabric of reality that has been corrupting us all ever since.

It's a series that continues to exist solely because Sega wants it to, as they have no obligation to like Nintendo does with Mario. It's a series that has only ever mattered because of Sega's own devotion to it, which is why the "best" the fanbase can ever come up with are endless recycles, and why Sonic fans are at their true best when they try to get away from the series altogether; Penny's Big Breakaway oughta have proved this once and for all. Indeed, the very second these people actually decide on what they want out of this character is the very second that Sonic as a series ends outright.

Sonic should have died during the Saturn years, denounced as the fad it was destined to be, never to return for any reason. This did not happen. The entire hobby is constantly paying dearly for it.

[Sima Tuna]

Sonic was never really good

I disagree completely. Are you really going to argue Sonic 1, 2 and 3 aren't good games? Mania has some problems (lack of originality, puyo puyo reference and one obnoxious boss) but it is a Good Game on the level of the Genesis titles.

What people want from sonic is pretty simple: momentum-based platforming. Comparable to what you saw from the original Super Mario Bros, where you could learn the levels and route yourself to be running at full speed the entire time.

The series keeps repeating itself because Sega doesn't know how to evolve the formula. Sega never figured out how to translate the formula to 3d. Something like Jet Set Radio is closer to the spirit of Genesis-era Sonic in 3d than Sonic Forces or Generations imo. As you correctly stated, Nintendo cracked the code for 3d mario and that gave them a blueprint they've been using ever since 64 to pump out 3d mario games. Sega doesn't have that blueprint because Adventure's mechanics aren't as rock-solid as 64's. Even adventure contains too many sections that play themselves, because Sega couldn't figure out "go fast with momentum" without leaning on the cheat of making on-rails speed sections.

Ironically, Sega's problem is its focus on Sonic's speed. If they could bring themselves to slow the games down a little and develop the momentum more, maybe they could craft a solid 3d sonic engine that works. Something where you can actually see and react to challenges, and where slopes actually affect gameplay.

Again, going back to Jet Set. Jet Set isn't as "fast" as Sonic. But it's very momentum-based and requires you to learn a specific set of skills for controlling your momentum. Jet Set does use grind rails, but it rarely locks you in completely. What I mean is that the grind rails tend to be small boosts of speed you can pick up before a series of platforming challenges. You'll tend to see rails leading up to wall ride platforming sections, where you bounce back and forth between walls and then land on a small platform. So you have to know how to retain speed, how to hit the walls and jump off, and then how to land and cut your speed without over-correcting.

I know some people hate Jet Set's controls (whether JSR or JSRF,) but they do work very well when you get used to them. It's not an easy game to control and the game is difficult on its own merits as well. But it IS a 3d, momentum-based platformer and it works! The game is not on rails to the degree of a modern 3d sonic game and it's not obsessed with pure speed. You can go fast but true skill is more about smoothness and control over your momentum.

That's what I'd like to see from 3d Sonic, personally.

[XoPachi]

I don't know, I had a ton of fun with it, I had very little fun with Sonic Mania, so it's a simple equation for me.
Sonic Mania is the kind of game I'd really love to enjoy on the surface, especially given how much I love S3&K, and the game trying very hard to mimick that in terms of presentation. It just falls apart when I try to approach it as a game. :\ At first it had me wonder if Sonic 3 had those same issues and I was just blinded by nostalgia. But then I replayed it (for the 30th time), and it really doesn't.

I don't think Mania is perfect. I really wish they just did for that game what SuperStars is doing now and just pushing fresher ideas and a new aesthetic. But at the end of the day, I think it had a specific goal, set out to achieve it, and did so just fine. I view it as a safe project for a new team. It feels really the best 2D Sonic has ever played, it's new ideas are really strong, and it does make a very good attempt at reinventing old themes. I put a nice 120 hours on it and can still easily return to it.

[Despatche]

Yes, that's why Superstars is so interesting, it's exactly what Mania should have been. There's still a lot to like about Mania, but it is an actual example of that "wasted potential" or "should have been a slam dunk" language people love to throw around mindlessly. The unique content in that game points to something that could have been truly great, and more importantly achievable, and it is precisely because of this that not many are willing to vouch for Mania over 3. Calling out Mania for what it is remains one of the few things Sonic fans are actually right about, even if they don't have the right language to explain it, and even when they attempt to blame Sega for it somehow.

Can't wait for everyone to get mad about Superstars when they realize Arzest is working on it. Feels like a weird apology for all the drama around Balan Wonderworld. Of course, Artoon/Arzest is "Sonic Team 2" and always has been. They're good people, they deserve better.

puyo puyo reference

Wait. Why would you single out one of the coolest bits about Mania as one of the "problems"? Like, I'm trash at Puyo too, but I'm not going to pretend that the Puyo boss is anything but a feather in Mania's cap.

What people want from sonic is pretty simple: momentum-based platforming.

This is not actually what people want. If it was, they'd be satisfied with what they've been getting for 25 years now. People claim this is what they want in order to make it seem like Sonic Team is perpetually stupid, when the reality is that these people just want to be magically wowed in 2023 in exactly the same way as they were magically wowed back in 1991. They don't seem to understand that this will never happen through any intentional effort on anyone's part. Every old video game series is like this, filled with "fans" who never actually liked any of these games themselves, who are constantly having to be tricked into liking things even as it gets harder year after year.

Sega never figured out how to translate the formula to 3d.

Adventure is exactly this. Secret Rings is exactly this. Colors and Lost World are exactly this. There is no better way of making something called a "3D Sonic" than what we already have, though there are other ways.

As you correctly stated, Nintendo cracked the code for 3d mario and that gave them a blueprint they've been using ever since 64 to pump out 3d mario games.

This is not what I stated at all. This is also completely incorrect. Nintendo got very lucky during a bad situation, making a string of very good games in an era that will likely be thought of as the "Dark Ages" in the future, ignoring that some already think of the N64 and Gamecube years as that.

Even adventure contains too many sections that play themselves, because Sega couldn't figure out "go fast with momentum" without leaning on the cheat of making on-rails speed sections.

That's because nobody can, because the entire concept behind Sonic was a mistake. Everything about Sonic is successfully tricking people into believing that this or that is not on-rails when it actually is. The IP itself limits you, you don't have a choice.

Ironically, Sega's problem is its focus on Sonic's speed.

The actual irony is that it's the fanbase that repeatedly compels Sega to do this. You cannot say this about a series where things like Marble or Labyrinth are seen as "problematic" instead of exactly the kind of thing Sonic needs more of. You cannot say this about a series where a large number of its games (that whole Dimps era that lasted for like a decade) were utterly hated by "fans" until they realized that didn't totally make sense anymore.

The rest of your post just sounds like you recognize the actual problem, but are unwilling to admit it. Me, I'm just glad that Sega does not truly have to worry about this anymore. Again, Sonic is only ever a "pillar" of Sega when they actually want it to be, not when anyone else demands it to be. That's really for the best.

[Despatche]

I disagree completely. Are you really going to argue Sonic 1, 2 and 3 aren't good games?

Okay, I'll bite. I'm putting this in a separate post, because I think it needs that.

What is commonly thought of as "2D Sonic" is a good idea that started off with meh execution, typical for a first game, but egregious in Sonic's case because Sonic 1 was a game that was being compared to Super Mario World. SMW is a somewhat half-hearted attempt at a collection of otherwise excellent ideas (Yoshi? Alternate exits? The Spin Jump? Utterly brilliant), coming directly off the back of the otherworldly SMB3. Sonic 1 does not even begin to compare to that "lesser Mario game". However, Sonic 1 has a very interesting character that a lot of later games lack: it is actually an example of this "Sonic needs to slow down and be more about physics" that you and so many others have started to use in recent years. I'd love to believe that this is the Sonic fanbase beginning to realize what's happening, yet the people who say this currently also blame Sega for their troubles and also keep putting Sonic 2 on a pedestal it does not deserve.

After this is CD. No, not 2, even though 2 physically came out first. CD is directly based on the same design philosophy behind 1, and even though that game is "messy", it along with 1 clearly show that there's something really good there if some enterprising developer were to spend some serious thought on it.

Sonic 2 completely fucked this all up. That is the game where the obsession with speed really started. Sonic 1 already had questionable mechanics like the ring system and the horrendously false sense of "level variety" specific to the Sonic series. 2 takes this to another level by introducing boneheaded mechanics like the Spin Dash, Super Sonic, and removing speed caps like it was no big deal. The monster was freed, and could not be put back in the cage.

Sonic 3 was a desperate attempt to right as many wrongs as they could. There are so many levels in that game that are meant to be a stop sign to the kind of bad thinking that 2 encourages, and unsurprisingly these are levels the public swears they hate. Sonic Team might have overdone it a little with the new shields, which are otherwise a very neat idea, but overall 3 turned out better than 2. Telling the Americans to fuck off and doing it all themselves was a smart move... if only Sega could have done this with literally anything else. Sigh.

Then you have Chaotix and 3D, which are pretty neat techdemo-y games that deserve a better reputation. Chaotix comes off as a game that was meant to be much more than a mere techdemo, and the entire situation surrounding it comes off as dumb company politics. 3D, meanwhile, was likely never meant to be more than a cute techdemo that was meant to hold the line until some shiny new Saturn Sonic arrived, but it does what it does very well. Both games should really should be treated as core Mega Drive Sonic games, and I would argue that Chaotix is a direct followup to CD, which is a direct followup to 1.

Thus, I am willing to call 3 "the best Mega Drive Sonic game", but it achieves that status due to technicalities more than anything else. Dimps showed that it's actually possible to make something besides yet another rehash of 3, and those games tend to be a bit more interesting than the Mega Drive games (or at least 2 and 3) as a result. Especially Advance 2, the first Rush, and probably also Colors DS. Those are some incredibly interesting games that need to be studied a little more closely, as they are examples of actually trying to make workable games about speed as the #1 priority. The world maybe doesn't deserve, but absolutely needs, a new game along these lines.

From here, I'm afraid to go any further. Frontiers and now Superstars have thrown two huge wrenches into this discussion. I don't think Sonic fans really appreciate what Frontiers represents, and I'm hoping they get it together when Superstars comes out. Adding the Spin Dash to the game is incredibly annoying and is yet another example of how Sega cares way too damn much about the fanbase, but oh well.

[XoPachi]

Sonic Advance 2 owned.

[Sima Tuna]

The actual irony is that it's the fanbase that repeatedly compels Sega to do this. You cannot say this about a series where things like Marble or Labyrinth are seen as "problematic" instead of exactly the kind of thing Sonic needs more of. You cannot say this about a series where a large number of its games (that whole Dimps era that lasted for like a decade) were utterly hated by "fans" until they realized that didn't totally make sense anymore.

The rest of your post just sounds like you recognize the actual problem, but are unwilling to admit it. Me, I'm just glad that Sega does not truly have to worry about this anymore. Again, Sonic is only ever a "pillar" of Sega when they actually want it to be, not when anyone else demands it to be. That's really for the best.

I think you're confusing me for someone who dislikes Marble Zone. I agree with you that slower levels are perfectly fine in Sonic games. And especially for 3d sonic game design, I think that sort of thing is needed to move the series away from the autorunner it becomes at times.

The Dimps games are a good example of Sega providing what they thought fans wanted. But fans don't always know what fans want. They want "a good game" but what is good? Some fans didn't like Sonic Advance 2 because it's too fast and too automated. The trick system was a cool idea and I wish Sega had kept it around and worked with it, as a way for players to influence Sonic's momentum while in midair. The drop dash can do some similar things in Mania (causing you to fall faster), although it's rather limited and provides the main benefit when you touch the ground.

IMO the dimps games vary wildly in quality. I have no complaints whatsoever with Sonic Battle GBA. I loved that game as a kid. It's kind of a weird game (strange genre for sonic) but it definitely doesn't suffer from trying to be "too fast" or the game playing itself.

I'm not the biggest fan of the whole Super Sonic mechanic, but I don't see an issue with spindash. Without spindash, the devs would have to be extremely careful with every inch of level design, otherwise they could very easily create sections that softlock the player. The spindash at least always gives you one tool you can use to progress past a single obstacle.

I kind of cock my head in confused dog mode at the whole "know the problem but are unwilling to admit it" bit. This isn't Watergate and there's nothing at stake for me to "admit" a game being shit or not. Sonic wasn't part of my childhood (aside from the Dimps gba games, lmao.) I discovered them later in life and I still think the classic games hold up the best. Meaning Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic CD (my access to sonic 3 was limited). When I play Sonic 1 and go to Sonic 2, I don't feel a dramatic difference in quality between those. They all feel like momentum-based platformers with a mix of more puzzle-like levels with more straightforward ones. YMMV

[XoPachi]

Didn't people like Advance and Rush? I always thought they were all pretty great. Even Colors DS which people don't really talk about at all. I could've sworn the general consensus was those were all pretty good games.

[Despatche]

Unfortunately, the entire "Dimps philosophy" (part of which is just Dimps probably being told to cater to a Sonic 2-worshipping fanbase) was hated for years and years, and Advance 2 was seen as the epitome of it. Advance 1 was the only game that consistently came out unscathed, because of how "safe" it was, almost like Mania but not quite. Only more recently do you have people willing to vouch for anything else with their name on it. Even now you still see people saying "Advance 1 was great, the rest is trash".

I think you're confusing me for someone who dislikes Marble Zone. I agree with you that slower levels are perfectly fine in Sonic games. And especially for 3d sonic game design, I think that sort of thing is needed to move the series away from the autorunner it becomes at times.

Well, you never said anything about any specific zone, so no I'm not confusing anyone with anything. I'm just telling you where the problem is. I'm glad you are not, in fact, such a person.

I'm not the biggest fan of the whole Super Sonic mechanic, but I don't see an issue with spindash. Without spindash, the devs would have to be extremely careful with every inch of level design, otherwise they could very easily create sections that softlock the player. The spindash at least always gives you one tool you can use to progress past a single obstacle.

The problem is that it's a lot more reasonable to be "extremely careful" about making a good level without the Spin Dash than it is about making a good level with the Spin Dash. The mechanic requires you to go out of your way to bulletproof situations that very few other games have to put up with. At least you can pretend to ignore Cape Mario!

I kind of cock my head in confused dog mode at the whole "know the problem but are unwilling to admit it" bit.

Well, your entire post here clearly shows what I'm talking about. You correctly advocate making Sonic something very different from what the fanbase has wanted it to be all these years, yet you're also unwilling to admit that things like Sonic 2 are how we got into this mess in the first place. You insist on blaming the developers for a problem that is being directly caused by the fanbase. If someone were to actually go out of their way to fix the problem for good, the end result would be polarizing solely based on the fact that many fans see what are clear negatives as clear positives. For a group of people that are so utterly concerned with the concept of "game design flaws", it's remarkable that Sonic fans truly do not know where the flaws actually are.

[Squire Grooktook]

Even adventure contains too many sections that play themselves, because Sega couldn't figure out "go fast with momentum" without leaning on the cheat of making on-rails speed sections.

I never really felt like it had more sections like that then the genesis games. There were auto-pilot loop-de-loops in both. But I always liked how Adventure made the platforming feel more flexible due to being able to see ahead. Some stages you can even cool skips by taking advantage of this, like Final Rush is a masterpiece and still probably one of the coolest stages in video game history.

A few months or a year ago I started replaying Sonic Adventure 2 (before getting sidetracked by college and other shit again). I was wondering if I'd end up with a radically different experience of it after seeing Sumez rabidly hate on it so much but...honestly it's still really fun? I kinda stand by my old stance that it's janky but fun and one of the more interesting 3d platformers of the time. Honestly don't understand the hate (granted I'm not a fan of the tails/eggman stages but hey, I even like Knuckles/Rouge gameplay so 2/3 ain't bad).

[XoPachi]

I never really felt like it had more sections like that then the genesis games. There were auto-pilot loop-de-loops in both. But I always liked how Adventure made the platforming feel more flexible due to being to see ahead.

A few months or a year ago I started replaying Sonic Adventure 2 (before getting sidetracked by college and other shit again). I was wondering if I'd end up with a radically different experience of it after seeing Sumez rabidly hate on it so much but...honestly it's still really fun? I kinda stand by my old stance that it's janky but fun and one of the more interesting 3d platformers of the time. Honestly don't understand the hate (granted I'm not a fan of the tails/eggman stages but hey, I even like Knuckles/Rouge gameplay).

I started playing Adventure 2 again this week.

It controls quite strangely in the sense that 4 different, context sensitive, diametrically opposed actions are mapped to the same button. Only really a problem for the speed stages though to be fair. You have to be spot the fuck on with airborne ring trails or you are plummeting to your death. Or you'll try to string ground ring trails and kill your momentum with a roll. Or try to pick something up and just roll. It can get a bit annoying though it *handles* fine mostly.

What stood out is that the level design is really goddamn good. Final Chase, Cosmic Wall, Hidden Base Green Hill Zone, and City Escape of course are so incredibly fun and trying to string all of the neat stuff together is worth the small control annoyances.

I like Knuckles and Rouge. I like their levels. I don't like the objective. I wish they just had A to B levels that took advantage of their moveset like the other 4 characters. Running around for minutes on end aimlessly waiting for the downgraded radar to start beeping is not fun to me. And using the monitors just makes the stages feel pointless usually. The levels either overstay their welcome or feel like I didnt do much to earn a win.
But its not painfully bad and they tend to have great atmosphere.

Issues aside, I think the game is even more fun than when I played it growing up. And I was a fiend for it as a kid.

[Despatche]

But I always liked how Adventure made the platforming feel more flexible due to being able to see ahead.

That's another thing about the 2D games, you just really don't get to see very much of the level at a time. Multiply this by every level being incredibly same-y, and you almost have to use a map to figure out where the hell you actually are. Mario was never as bad about this, because the scale of that game is very zoomed out in comparison, and because Mario games typically don't repeat the same few specific chunks of platforms for an entire level. It's actually very funny, because the Mario games are all 256, while the Sonics are all 320 (except for things like 2's and CD's Special Stages of course).

The 3D games largely "correct" this by giving you such a wide view of the level at any time, limited only by pop-in like any other 3D game. Sure, this applies to those Dimps games even more due to being on such smaller screens, but this is also something people typically dismiss in general, and that's a shame. It was only when Mania came out that I really started seeing people say "Sonic is great when I can see more of the level".

[null1024]

I was going to reply in depth to Despatche's posts, but they're completely unhinged. A complete rejection of everything about Sonic since 2, with a bunch of odd expectations gleaned from a few minutes of footage for a game that ultimately plays like a post-S2 2D Sonic from what we've seen and heard, with a bunch of talking about "this is what the community asked for" despite every mainline Sonic game from SA1 until Unleashed being padded out with outright bullshit that no one asked for.
Sega outright ignored actual complaints that kept coming up [that all these other non-Sonic gameplay parts in 3D Sonic are fucking poorly thought out padding] in favor of dumb shit from gaming media outlets that parroted this as "no one wants to play as Sonic's friends" -- so after 06, we stopped getting to play as them for years, while still not fixing the problem and insisting on alternate gameplay to pad things out, and this happening around when Sega designed the boost formula for the games made things extra dumb, since they had to make miles upon miles of detailed levels that will be completed in like 1:30 each and then fucking made the Werehog stages take forever as a result. Classic Sonic in Generations was made by people who genuinely never understood how Sonic moved in 2D games. Forces retains it and pads things out with the Avatar levels [I won't bitch too much about them as a concept, but remarkably little of Forces has interesting level design anyway so it's a moot point].

Sega never figured out how to translate the formula to 3d.

I dunno. People like the regular Sonic parts of SA1 and SA2 and Unleashed. Colors is all regular Sonic parts, if maybe a little too 2D focused with levels. There's just a bunch of other padding that genuinely no one asked for. It is amazing how quickly I see people new to SA2 immediately want to stop playing once they get to a Knuckles level in it.
Sonic games were routinely praised for the things they get right, and savaged for all the extra shit pasted on to make the game longer than 1.5 hours.

I don't know, I had a ton of fun with it, I had very little fun with Sonic Mania, so it's a simple equation for me.
Sonic Mania is the kind of game I'd really love to enjoy on the surface, especially given how much I love S3&K, and the game trying very hard to mimick that in terms of presentation. It just falls apart when I try to approach it as a game. :\ At first it had me wonder if Sonic 3 had those same issues and I was just blinded by nostalgia. But then I replayed it (for the 30th time), and it really doesn't.

Fair enough. I do think S3&K, despite having a few parts that are worse than anything in Mania, has a bit better stage design as a whole. Mostly S3 has severe problems compared to Mania -- Marble Garden genuinely isn't fun with the sheer amount of "hey, you're moving fast and here's a set of spikes lmao" bullshit that isn't present in the rest of the game, and Carnival Night act 2 is a genuinely obnoxious level on a first run. I guess Sandopolis act 2 is rough too, but the older I get, the more I like it. I wasn't a fan 10 years ago.
Mania's layouts are like really long Sonic 2 levels sometimes, with a few portions that are like Sonic 3 levels with sections that overstay their welcome. Flying Battery in Mania is an impressive level, but not exactly a fun one, either act. Probably the worst example I can think of though, as I actually do like the game quite a bit.