R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari

[Steven]

Run 2 The Right Really Fucking Fast: The Sonic Thread

Lots of Sonic discussion lately, most of it being my fault, so here is an official (???) Sonic thread. Yay.

Spoiler

Sonic Adventure 2 is garbage.

All Sonic stuff is okay, so yes, you can talk about the glorious Sonic R or The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog or Sonic ROM hacks or even SegaSonic Popcorn Shop here if you want. Sonic-adjacent games like Time Dominator or Freedom Planet are also okay. Penny's Big Breakaway is also cool to talk about because the Sonic Mania devs are doing that, so it's close enough.

[Sima Tuna]

My tier list of Darksteel the Hedgehog games based on the ones I've played:

Top Tier:

Sonic 2
Sonic 1
Sonic 3&K (although I've barely played these)
Sonic Mania

"Good" Tier:

Sonic Battle
Sonic Adventure 1 (playing only sonic and tails stages)
Sonic Adventure 2 (playing only sonic and shadow stages)

Mediocre Tier:

Sonic Generations
Sonic Advance 3 (barely played)

Bad Tier:

Every 3d sonic game including 3d blast
All the levels from Adventure 1 and 2 that aren't Sonic, SA1 Tails or Shadow

Unplayed Tier:

Colors
Advance 1
Rush

[Air Master Burst]

OK, here's my Sonic hot takes in one place for the record:

-3D Blast Saturn still has the best special stages in the whole franchise. I also really dig the Richard Jaques soundtrack but I get it if you prefer the Genesis tunes.

-Somehow 3D Sonic peaked on the Saturn; with the combo of Sonic R, Sonic Jam's hub world, and 3D Blast's special stages still being better than any of the legit 3D Sonic games.

-Chao Garden alone makes the Adventure games certified classic bangers.

-Don't sleep on Sonic Rush, it's excellent. The DS version of Colors is shockingly good too.

-Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Rush are both in the running for best soundtrack in the franchise, which is pretty impressive considering the pedigree of the Genesis entries.

-Like half the stages in S3&K are kinda bad and it's a slog to replay because they're mostly frontloaded in S3; they probably coulda made the perfect Sonic game if they'd stuck to a single cart. Honestly you could probably cut everything between Angel Island and Ice Cap and it would be a far better game for it.

-Sonic CD is garbage. Stardust Speedway was the only reason to play that game, and now that Mania has a version that doesn't handle like a shitty romhack, CD can be relegated to the trash heap where it belongs.

[Sima Tuna]

I forgot about Sonic CD. I'd put that in the barely played/not played tier. I remember liking it at the time, but that was years ago and I finished maybe a couple of levels. The music is fantastic. I know people tend to have a very "love it or hate it" reaction to Sonic CD's design. I've heard people say it's the best Sonic game ever made and others say that it's awful. Guess it depends what kind of player you are?

I didn't rank my selections in any particular order within the tiers. My favorite classic sonic game is probably Sonic 2 or Mania. If we count mods (even official ones, as in this case), then the Sonic 1 Ages port with the spin and drop dash is pretty fucking awesome. I know the stages weren't designed to be played that way, but it's just fun! Sonic 2's Ages port can be played with the drop dash too, but Sonic 2 always had the spindash and thus never felt quite as punishing as the first game.

My only major problem with Sonic Mania is this one running robot boss in the movieland stage. It's not difficult in any way, but it takes for-goddamn-ever to kill because it has 4 or 5 phases with all these transitional screens. While the boss is changing phases, you can't damage it and nothing on the screen requires player input. Oh, and I forgot about the Mean Bean Machine boss. That one is mega shit. I'm trying to replay these levels to get better at them. 90% of the time when I play Sonic Mania, I'm playing on the "no save" setting, right? So I reach the end of chemical plant and-oh god-time for another shitty, boring Mean Bean Machine section. It's like playing against level 1 (or lower) CPU AI in Puyo Puyo. Sometimes Eggman busts out a bullshitty play, but most of the time he slooowwwwly crawls towards his inevitable defeat. I can't play puyo puyo well enough to crush him in seconds and skip the shitty boss fight, but he's too easy to ever be interesting or fun to fight. Not to mention the major problem that I didn't launch Sonic Mania to play Puyo Puyo.

[Steven]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention arcade Sonic 1 on the Mega Play. Everything that everyone hates about Sonic 1 got removed from the arcade version: no Special Stages, no Marble Zone, no Labyrinth Zone, and no Scrap Brain Act 3. All of that is gone, leaving only the things that people like.

Too bad arcade Sonic 2 wasn't included on Sega Ages like Mega Play arcade Sonic 1. I wonder what differences it has.

Sonic CD is a weird game. I hated it for the first 7 playthroughs, but then on my 8th I figured it out and I really like the game. The stage design does look like a bootleg, though, and Wacky Workbench exists, but the game can be a lot of fun outside of the more odd places.

[cfx]

My hot takes in no particular order:

1) SonicCD is awesome, at least with the Japanese soundtrack; the US soundtrack kills the atmosphere of the game.

2) Sonic 1 and 2 are great, but I do not like Sonic 3. Everything about the game is overdone, overly busy graphics that make it hard to keep track of Sonic, levels that feel too complex compared to 1/2/CD, and Knuckles is the first of a long line of terrible other characters.

3) Chao Gardens are one of the worst additions to Sonic ever.

4) Knuckles Chaotix is garbage.

5) Saturn Sonic 3D Blast is a very good game, if not what people expect of Sonic. The Richard Jacques soundtrack is awesome as is most of what he did for Sega during this era.

6) The 3D overworld thing in Saturn Sonic Jam is horrible and gives me severe nausea. Do you have to go through it to get to the games? I can't remember but if so that's lousy game design.

I haven't played many of the other games. I had enough of 3D Sonic after Sonic Adventure 1/2 so haven't touched anything else. I own Sonic Generations PS3 but have not played it. I will soon get Sonic Mania.

I have Sonic Advance 2 somewhere among all the other GBA junk I need to sell. It's the only one of those I've played but I found it boring.

I haven't played any of the games in years, so my memory of specifics isn't good enough to write better reasoning or details like most of you have, so truly hot takes I guess.

[Air Master Burst]

Too bad arcade Sonic 2 wasn't included on Sega Ages like Mega Play arcade Sonic 1. I wonder what differences it has.

If I remember right, the only differences in Sonic 2 arcade was that they completely removed time limits, extra lives, and special stages.

[Mortificator]

2D hoghedge MASTER ranking:
Sonic & Knuckles > Sonic 3 > Sonic Colors > Sonic Advance > Sonic 1 > Sonic 2 > Sonic Triple Trouble > Sonic CD > Sonic Generations > Sonic Mania > Sonic 1 8-bit > Sonic Pocket Adventure > Sonic Advance 3 > Sonic Advance 2 > Sonic Rush Adventure > Sonic 4 Episode II > Sonic 2 8-bit > Sonic Boom: Fire & Ice > Chaotix > Sonic Rush > Sonic Chaos > Sonic 4 Episode I > Sonic Rivals 2 > Sonic Rivals > Sonic Boom: Shattered Crystal > G Sonic

3D Soniku mega ranking collection plus:
Sonic Adventure > Sonic Adventure 2 > Shadow the Hedgehog > Sonic and the Black Knight > Sonic Heroes > Sonic Lost World > Sonic Unleashed > Sonic and the Secret Rings > Sonic '06 > Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric

Isometric way past cool seven rings in hand ranking:
Sonic 3D Blast > SegaSonic > Sonic Labyrinth

[guigui]

Sonic games I played to the end : Sonic 1 (at 14 years old), Sonic 2 (at 15 years old), Sonic 3 (at 16 years old).

Sonic games I launched then dropped in 10 minutes : Sonic Adventure, Sonic Colors, Sonic Frontiers

Off topic best Sonic game : Racing all Stars Transformed ?

[Air Master Burst]

Off topic best Sonic game : Racing all Stars Transformed ?

I vastly prefer the OG All-Stars Racing, but that's mostly because I don't care for non-driving segments in kart racers. That said, I think the driving physics took a major hit in the sequel.

ETA: Sonic R is also fucking baller.

[SuperDeadite]

Sonic 2 is the one I fell for as a kid. Rush is damn good too. Recently though I've fallen in love with Sonic 1 SMS. Especially after I've used MSX power to give the tunes a nice boost: https://youtu.be/ZHZUP16OLiE

[cfx]

Off topic best Sonic game : Racing all Stars Transformed ?

I vastly prefer the OG All-Stars Racing, but that's mostly because I don't care for non-driving segments in kart racers. That said, I think the driving physics took a major hit in the sequel.

ETA: Sonic R is also fucking baller.

I may not often agree with your opinions, but I am 100% on these.

[null1024]

I forgot about Sonic CD. I'd put that in the barely played/not played tier. I remember liking it at the time, but that was years ago and I finished maybe a couple of levels. The music is fantastic. I know people tend to have a very "love it or hate it" reaction to Sonic CD's design. I've heard people say it's the best Sonic game ever made and others say that it's awful. Guess it depends what kind of player you are?

CD as a game is very much designed around going back in time and destroying the robot generators. This is a stark design difference that causes it to be really different from pretty much every other Sonic game.
Unfortunately, CD is also very much designed to make it hard to go back in time, with the combination of stage layouts designed to interrupt Sonic when running at full tilt from time travelling and a few parts where you need to hunt for a past signpost at all.
It's very jumbled, and the worst bit is that it's deliberately jumbled. When going back in time, it's a tricky, fairly interesting platform affair, but it doesn't feel very Sonic. When playing straight through and just getting the Time Stones instead, the level layouts are just kind of boring and don't do much apart from like Stardust Speedway, which is an absolutely obnoxious level and reminds me that people hate on Wacky Workbench way too much in comparison [even if it's also not good].

Oh yeah, and the boss design is kind of bad even by Sonic standards, a franchise never known for its well thought out boss battles.

It does a few things really right.
Sonic's handling is snappier, there's no control lock after jumping out a roll [the first 2D game after CD that follows suit is Mania AFAIK].
The camera panning when at speed is great and I wish other Sonic games did it [afaik, it isn't until Advance 2 that something similar shows up again].
The music is great [I vastly prefer the JP soundtrack, the US one is alright I guess, even if Sonic Boom is a cooler theme song], the stage art is great. The whole package is very stylish.
I just don't feel like it ever comes together because of the level layouts.

As an aside, I decidedly remember Sonic CD's reputation falling a lot after Gems Collection [admittedly, this is a fairly rough port from the PC version and uses the US audio in all regions IIRC], and then falling again somewhat after the mobile remake. I'm kind of convinced that a lot of the buzz was from people who didn't really play it, but I'd also accept that a lot of the negativity came from people who didn't really give it a fair shake. I can get why people would love it, but for all its better aspects, I think it's just not good.


Also, on an unrelated note, Mega Play Sonic 1 is by far the best way to play it. No fat, no filler [apart from the final boss, which I will occasionally get really unlucky with and take more than like 3 minutes to beat]. The stage timer is probably a little short if you're not quite familiar with the levels, but that's alright.

[Air Master Burst]

I'd also recommend the 16-bit Triple Trouble remake, they nailed the feel of Genesis Sonic pretty well.

[Lander]

Trash Tier:
Any 3D title that pads otherwise serviceable stages with 2D filler sections.

[XoPachi]

I like Sonic games. :¬()
He jumps and goes "BYOOOP" and it makes me smile.

[null1024]

I'd also recommend the 16-bit Triple Trouble remake, they nailed the feel of Genesis Sonic pretty well.

I have exactly one real nitpick with the game, and it's that the hud positioning is weird vs the Genesis games.
It's kind of annoying since the game otherwise has such good attention to detail with everything else.

[To Far Away Times]

I'd also recommend the 16-bit Triple Trouble remake, they nailed the feel of Genesis Sonic pretty well.

This and Mania are the two shining beacons of quality that escaped from the sea of Sonic turds in the post Genesis era.

Triple Trouble is free too.

[Air Master Burst]

I'd also recommend the 16-bit Triple Trouble remake, they nailed the feel of Genesis Sonic pretty well.

This and Mania are the two shining beacons of quality that escaped from the sea of Sonic turds in the post Genesis era.

Triple Trouble is free too.

Don't sleep on Sonic 2 Absolute or Sonic 3 Complete, either. They aren't really even remakes, though, so I don't know if they're worth mentioning.

Sonic 3 A.I.R. is also nice, but it's still missing a couple of the best fixes from Complete.

[Steven]

Sonic 3 Complete is awesome (and so is Sonic R). It also has a major advantage over A.I.R.: it works on a real Genesis or Mega Drive. It's really too bad they fixed some of the really cool glitches in Sonic 3 Complete, like how it won't let you take Knuckles into Sonic's Ice Cap Act 2, so it's not perfect, but it's pretty decent overall and it fixes way more things than it breaks.

Even Sonic Origins will let you take Knux into Sonic's Ice Cap Act 2, but good luck doing it without using external autofire. I suppose you could just use debug in both cases, but that's no fun.

Off topic best Sonic game : Racing all Stars Transformed ?

Definitely not off topic; if it's Sonic, it's good here. I still REALLY want to play Transformed somehow.

[cfx]

I still REALLY want to play Transformed somehow.

What's the problem? It's on your superior platform of choice:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2124 ... ollection/

Unless it's one of those region locked things? (And I can't tell about that.)

[Steven]

I still REALLY want to play Transformed somehow.

What's the problem? It's on your superior platform of choice:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2124 ... ollection/

Unless it's one of those region locked things? (And I can't tell about that.)

Region locked. Many Sega games are like this for some reason.

[cfx]

Sorry, that sucks.

I take it you don't have a PS3?

[Steven]

I do, but I don't want to play it at 30FPS.

[Air Master Burst]

Definitely not off topic; if it's Sonic, it's good here. I still REALLY want to play Transformed somehow.

It's a bit of a step back from the first, but it's still really good. If you prefer your kart racers with water and air segments you'll be in heaven.

I think the character selection kind of sucks in Transformed, though. It really ruins the classic Sega vibe when you have Wreck-It Ralph, Danica fucking Patrick, and whatever the shit Yogscast is supposed to be all in the same race.

[cfx]

I do, but I don't want to play it at 30FPS.

Ok, well you've gone from

I still REALLY want to play Transformed somehow.

to only wanting to play it if it meets your very specific requirements. Given how often you take potshots at consoles and talk about how PC is always superior, I should not be surprised.

[Steven]

Well yeah, why wouldn't I? Modern consoles are awful and PC is better (although modern games in general are kind of bad), and "somehow" includes various methods that don't involve Steam, although I would prefer not to do it that way.

Oh yeah, while I am here, they are doing some sort of symphony thingy: https://www.sonicsymphonytour.com/

I guess this is going to be like that 30th anniversary thing they did and that was really, REALLY good. Not much is on the schedule yet, but it would be cool to go if they actually play locally.

[Lander]

Any love for Tails' Adventure? That game and Sonic Labyrinth mystified kid me after a few brief encounters by way of the neighbours' Game Gear.

I recall revisiting both through emulation back in the days of Zophar's Domain, and while Labyrinth's slow-by-design conceit doesn't seem much to shout about, Adventure seemed like a competent little metroidvania, if a bit obtuse in places. Perhaps a re-revisit is in order.

Ok, well you've gone from

...escalating from "got PS3?" to telling us how you really feel about no-compromise PC players.

Perhaps we need a Run 2 The Right Rabbling About Platforms thread next

[Steven]

I haven't played that, but I did have the displeasure of playing Tails' Skypatrol once. I guess that is technically a shooting game, now that I think about it... although I don't want to think about that game because it's not good lol.

[XoPachi]

Cannot get into these Freedom Planet games. Anytime I play them, I just want to play Sonic Mania or Sonic Advance instead. 2 especially is just very aggravating in it's flow.

Any love for Tails' Adventure? That game and Sonic Labyrinth mystified kid me after a few brief encounters by way of the neighbours' Game Gear.

Tails Adventure is great and I always wanted it to get a Dragon's Trap treatment or a sequel. It's such a cute game and I miss when side characters got the one off adventures of their own.