On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

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Sumez
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by Sumez »

Urgh, the forum ate up the first response I wrote. I've tried to recreate it below, but you're getting the short version.
hamfighterx wrote: Not necessarily "bad design" or "unfair", but it's definitely a reason WHY a lot of arcade shooters were designed the way they were, and is worth recognizing. It usually wasn't because devs thought that was the best possible choice from a design perspective, it was quite literally dictated by the business due to arcade operators being more concerned with profitability than gameplay. It's quite impressive that many of these games were still extremely fun despite the restrictions placed on the devs to make the game hard enough that average credit time wasn't too long. You really have to make a compelling game to get people to keep making the decision to pay one more credit to get to that next stage, or to practice and sharpen their skills. And it's totally understandable that people who are nostalgic for these kinds of games enjoy seeing more of them, with similar difficulty, just because that's what they are used to and grew to love.
You're right about the first thing you write. I don't think anyone disagrees that classic arcade design was 100% dictated by the business model.
But saying the games were enjoyable despite this, and filing people's love to it as nostalgia and habit is completely disregarding all the quality elements to challenging design that people love. When the truth is that people resonated with arcade games because they loved being challenged and continuously pushing their own boundaries as their skills improve. And because a game that tries to make the player stop playing after a minute of gameplay is bound by a pretty tight restriction of making that minute enjoyable as hell.

But it's also a little insane to me to limit your audience by steadfastly clinging to being intentionally unforgiving as the only way and just telling potential new players to "git gud". ESPECIALLY when you're no longer trying to make money primarily by selling to arcade operators who want a constant flow of credits to the machine.
This at least we can agree on. It's an old subject and I feel like I've already repeatedly shared my opinions on it to death over the past 20 years - in short I think you can maintain the exact same core mechanical design that dictates the arcade challenge, while also packaging it in a way that doesn't necessarily phrase it as "credits" and "continues", but design a framework that feels much more approachable to new and inexperienced players - and it's kind of baffling how few games still do that. I think just slapping an easy mode on there like M2 does feels more like a cheap cop-out, and not really the ideal approach. DeathSmiles's in-game rank selection was a pretty good idea though, and slightly touches on what I think is ideal - building these features into the game's framework itself, rather than making it cold-ass menu options.
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Lethe
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by Lethe »

dai jou bu wrote:Sounds like you’re doing the shouting thing I mentioned earlier in this thread.
Nobody is "shouting" and 99% of the "shouters" have ditched this site for not being supah hardcore enough. A polite difference of opinion is not zealotry.
Burnouts have this tendency to get wrapped up in their own logic and strawman even harder than the institutions they criticize. Just saying.
Sumez wrote:DeathSmiles's in-game rank selection was a pretty good idea though, and slightly touches on what I think is ideal - building these features into the game's framework itself, rather than making it cold-ass menu options.
Or again, like Hellsinker's idea of having its unlosable Shrine bonus stage kick in if you die too much so you can use it to get back to the extend limit, like a legitimized in-game continue. It has a vestigial normal continue as well, but if you see the Shrine, it gets disabled. There are a huge number of strong ideas sparsely scattered all over the breadth of the genre, the problem is that loud people only seem to look at surface level garbage and not the specificity that makes each individual game tick. (Much like any other kind of media...)

So then, for maybe the most pretentious thing I've said yet: If a given person hasn't tried to break down the ideas found in progressive doujank, I don't think that person is equipped to conversate on what shmups could be. As opposed to having these repetitive baby level discussions about how to Frankenstein traditional shmup design into something it fundamentally isn't.
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XoPachi
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by XoPachi »

dai jou bu wrote: I’m not going to try and explain why games Lately have tried to be more accessible because that’s way beyond the scope of this discussion, so play another game whose design language speaks to you then? Sounds like you’re doing the shouting thing I mentioned earlier in this thread.
I mean...yeah? I went and played other games that suit me.......yeah. But I still remember buying, playing, and the reason I eventually put away Graze Counter. You can stop dismissing people as geriatric boomers yelling at clouds. It's not entirely necessary. I don't even really outright disagree with your opinions. I'm not demanding the genre regress to being exclusively Gradius 3 AC or Fire Shark. But I like to think there are better solutions to what some newer games are offering that won't kill the broader appeal they want. I already implied STG's do this with a decent elegance but there's still room to improve that.

I don't think Graze Counter and it's ilk are unplayable terrible games or even subpar. None of OP's examples are unfun. I don't think anyone here finds those games bad. But their design can feel unfulfilling in the longterm hurting their longevity for me and others. I think that's worth the presented critique. I don't think that easily becoming nearly unstoppable, with little evolution in the strategies should be the weapon of choice for games seeking accessibility. And "just up the difficulty" is a side step to me. The answer isn't "moar boolits" (not saying that was your response though, I'm just putting that additional point out there).
Blue Revolver, Monolith, Infinos Gaiden, and Natsuki Chronicles are huge successes in my eyes in this regard. They still leave room for intuitive problem solving and a great flow state despite their relatively mild bite, simple but adaptable mechanics, and innovative beginner features.
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dai jou bu
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by dai jou bu »

XoPachi wrote:I mean...yeah? I went and played other games that suit me.......yeah. But I still remember buying, playing, and the reason I eventually put away Graze Counter. You can stop dismissing people as geriatric boomers yelling at clouds. It's not entirely necessary.
I bolded the last sentence of your quote. So when is it necessary? Genuinely curious here. I thought I made the right call because your opinion of graze counter gave off the attitude of “this game is too easy for me to not die therefore scoring is pointless (heh),” but as BareKnuckleRoo puts it,
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:I suspect you've never encountered people who struggle with Touhou games even on Easy mode. Yeah, they're out there. Do people who enjoy shmups but aren't any good at them not deserve to have options out there that represent cool, but accessible games?
Graze Counter definitely fits one of those cool, but accessible games. Anyway…
XoPachi wrote:I don't think Graze Counter and it's ilk are unplayable terrible games or even subpar. None of OP's examples are unfun. I don't think anyone here finds those games bad. But their design can feel unfulfilling in the longterm hurting their longevity for me and others.
So… it’s good that we have new shmups that appeal to people who aren’t familiar with the genre and don’t have an interest in playing the classics of the past, but it disfranchises those who’ve been deep in the genre for over half a decade because the challenge is “brain dead” for them? I’d say it’s well been past due for a glut of PC-Engine era shmups to come out after years of drought because I sure missed that bandwagon and sure as heck am not going to blow tons of cash for a copy of sapphire and then spend even more to get it to run properly on the right hardware configuration.
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XoPachi
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by XoPachi »

I honestly did not think this was a topic that people were this touchy about. Not this forum anyway.

Good god, never fucking mind. lmao
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maximo310
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by maximo310 »

My experience with graze counter/ gm is that even on extreme/unlimited extreme (which only increases bullet density/speed), the game systems (especially the fast recharge of auto-shield/graze meter & generous extend rate) make it very easy to circumvent a lot of tricky sections through brute force for the clear. In addition, the game only has local leaderboards, which do not seperate scores based on what type of special option you used ( shield/safety system/break booster). You could decide to milk bosses/enemies until the last second to push score further, even if the boss timers are fairly long & the milks don't feel very engaging compared to other grazing games I've played such as Psyvariar/Cotton RnR.

Even tweaking the auto-shield or limiting how many bullets get removed by the graze counter in a separate mode (with multiple difficulties) could be a good way to have players engage with enemy patterns, and still offer a more balanced approach to the overall game design imo.
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dojo_b
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by dojo_b »

IMO the most important direction for the genre is new and emerging tools to reduce the barrier to shmup-design and mod/level-design as much as possible, so that skilled players can contribute very directly to the gameplay conversation without professionalization. Think SHMUP Creator, and the various fan level communities for say 2D platformers. People should use these tools and strong players should offer feedback and/or votes to highlight cool ideas, even if these ideas are not full-game sized or lack commercial polish.

Re: when to expect "the next Crimzon Clover", my understanding is that Yotsubane had a rare combination of skills and grit: superplayer with a deep understanding of what makes CAVE games special, from visuals to core feel and mechanics to advanced deadly patterns. And an insane work ethic to make it all come together.

That's a damn fine thing, but not a recipe the community can rely on. There's not a software company that can support Cave-tier "bullet pattern / scoring system research", and an indie studio can't be expected to have an expert player on staff. (I mean you can say you expect it, but you'll be disappointed. And the dearth of strong player-designers is surely connected to the trend of essentially "forgiving" designs unsatisfying to the highly skilled) Meanwhile many expert players are getting into their 40s and beyond, with day jobs that pay more than shmup careers realistically could. They might have cool shmup ideas in mind, but not more than a casual interest in seeing them realized. I would like to see the creative energies of people with different strengths and at different levels of engagement to be more effectively invited into shmup-making. And hope that their efforts would gradually increase the quality of design in glossier commercial releases as well.
UndefinedFantastiCat
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by UndefinedFantastiCat »

I'd circle back to Stellavanity for a moment:
A doujin made >10 years ago by now still offers insane replayability even if you ignore the rpg aspect.
2(3) modes: rpg(story), limited rpg(rule), pure(strict rule)
2 characters and 2 types for each: simple (Type C) and complex (Type S)
those two aspects aren't as important, as the next two, though
6 difficulties (Easy to Pandemonium)
And the best one so far: Deathsmiles-like rank system, where your rank (and extra boss you face at the end) is determined by your route through early stages AND:
-overall survival performance for typeC (less hits = cooler boss)
-BOTH scoring in early stages and overall survival performance for typeS

And the scoring is also crazy complex for typeS, while for typeC it's more of a good old "easy to learn, hard to master" approach.

The game just offers you so much depth (for the STG) and while everything may sound overwhelming, easy and normal on lowest rank are one of the easiest clears you can ever get from a complex game.

Very sad that this game is bogging down because of difficulties to find it, as well as how the community stuff unfolded + the sheer grinding needed for proper practice unlocks is another thing turning people away... (that problem is being worked on by unknown group)

Stellavanity is just so good in many aspects for literally every single difficulty step one can imagine, and the ability to tweak your learning curve due to sheer variety of ranks, routes, and difficulties... It can stay forgiving or turn brutal in just couple moments.
If this game would have been released in 2024, I believe it would be able to appeal to a huge crowd...
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Koa Zo
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by Koa Zo »

dai jou bu wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:11 pm not going to blow tons of cash for a copy of sapphire and then spend even more to get it to run properly on the right hardware configuration.
PCEngine Minis were what? $100?
They are still readily available on eBay for around $150
PC Engine Fan X!
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

Koa Zo wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:00 pm
dai jou bu wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:11 pm not going to blow tons of cash for a copy of sapphire and then spend even more to get it to run properly on the right hardware configuration.
PCEngine Minis were what? $100?
They are still readily available on eBay for around $150
For dai jou bu,

You can pick up a PC Engine/Core Grafx/Core Grafx II + a Krikzz Turbo Everdrive Pro and play Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire rom on real gaming hardware without the need for a real NEC PCE CD-Rom2 Interface Unit or a NEC PCE/Supergrafx Super CD-Rom2 Interface Unit add-on necessary. It works like a charm with my PCE, Core Grafx II, Super Grafx, TurboGrafx-16 consoles and Turbo Express portable handheld.

Plan on spending upwards of $450.00+ usd or more just for an RGB modded Super CD-Rom2 Interface Unit add-on alone is the norm these days. Delving into the retro PCE gaming platform hobby nowadays ain't cheap but well worth it in the end with the numerous PCE stg titles made for it (including the latest released PCE stg title of Dinoforce).

It's well-known that the USA region Turbo Duo console sold by TTI plays the Arcade CD-Rom2 title of Sapphire up to a certain extent then hangs up/pauses indefinitely or just pick up a PCE Duo/Duo-R/Duo-RX and properly play Sapphire as it was meant to be played. A burned CD-R of Sapphire plays just fine on real PCE gaming hardware (so there's no need to get the real genuine article of Sapphire indeed).

Sure, all three variants of the PC Engine Mini, Core Grafx Mini and the Turbografx-16 Mini consoles play Sapphire with game saves/save states & high scores + high score initials saved kept in nvram for safe-keeping/posterity (something that the original PCE hardware isn't able to do at the present moment -- yes, NEC or Hudson Soft could've easily added high score & high score initials saving functionality to Sapphire in development {through the Duo's "Backup RAM" utility app} before it was released in limited numbers for Japan back in December of 1995).

PC Engine fan X! ^_~
gray117
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Re: On the Trend of Forgiving Game Design

Post by gray117 »

Some people like candy, just don't eat too much of it.

In ages of accessibility in any genre I think increasingly it's up to you to choose how to play any given game.

It's also ok not to like every shmup even as a genre fan.
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