Batsugun S-Tribute

[Some-Mist]

yea, special is just the "arrange mode" which is something you'll find with some home ports where they'll rearrange the base game w/ different enemy placement, bullet patterns, mechanics, etc.

the one w/ batsugun is pretty easy for the first 5 stages (first loop) and it automatically loops back to the 2nd stage ramping up the difficulty and introducing suicide bullets. I've personally never made it past the 2nd loop but maybe it's time to push past it

the issue with it that EmperorIng brought up is that if you're good enough you get counterstopped in special mode which is when the game will stop tracking the score beyond a certain threshold, so it ruins the competitive aspect of it if you can make it that far

[Flycast]

Wait....there were other episodes of the same game porting released together ? (Or near).

The Saturn version had both original and special on the disc.

yea, special is just the "arrange mode" which is something you'll find with some home ports where they'll rearrange the base game w/ different enemy placement, bullet patterns, mechanics, etc.

the one w/ batsugun is pretty easy for the first 5 stages (first loop) and it automatically loops back to the 2nd stage ramping up the difficulty and introducing suicide bullets. I've personally never made it past the 2nd loop but maybe it's time to push past it

the issue with it that EmperorIng brought up is that if you're good enough you get counterstopped in special mode which is when the game will stop tracking the score beyond a certain threshold, so it ruins the competitive aspect of it if you can make it that far

I mean, there will be a Batsugun Saturn Tribute Boosted by City-Connection, and then (maybe 1 year later) another version by M2? or M2 will make all the other Taoplan's titles but not this?

[Sumez]

Thx for the answer.
I'm a non-bullethell shmups average player. But literally yesterday i've tried Dodonpachi (PS1) and i love it! If all the bullethell are like that, i love the sub-genre! And since this is from another famous bullet-hell team and is a sort of "30th anniversary edition" (1993-2023) i was interested.

Dodonpachi is a very emblematic Cave bullet-hell shooter, and if you like it, you will likely enjoy most of Cave's other games, such as Espgaluda, Ketsui, Mushihimesama and so on (in fact you'll probably love both Mushi games if you enjoy the thematic feel of a game feeling like "summer" - even the ice sea in Futari feels like summer)

Toaplan aren't a "bullet-hell" team, but Batsugun does feel a lot like the Cave games, because it's basically designed by the same guy who designed Dodonpachi and many other later games. If you like DDP, you'll like Batsugun. If you like shooters being on the easier side, and don't have any strict scoring shenanigans, Batsugun will especially be appealing.

Batsugun isn't a typical Toaplan game though. While not strictly bullethell, it does have the feel of one. None of Toaplan's other games really feel that way. Maybe V-V does if we're being generous.

I mean, there will be a Batsugun Saturn Tribute Boosted by City-Connection, and then (maybe 1 year later) another version by M2? or M2 will make all the other Taoplan's titles but not this?

M2 will release Basugun eventually, and it'll be much better than this release. That much is pretty much set in stone.
But we don't know when it's coming. It could easily be a few years. Their pace is extremely slow.

[Flycast]

Thx for the answer.
I'm a non-bullethell shmups average player. But literally yesterday i've tried Dodonpachi (PS1) and i love it! If all the bullethell are like that, i love the sub-genre! And since this is from another famous bullet-hell team and is a sort of "30th anniversary edition" (1993-2023) i was interested.

Dodonpachi is a very emblematic Cave bullet-hell shooter, and if you like it, you will likely enjoy most of Cave's other games, such as Espgaluda, Ketsui, Mushihimesama and so on (in fact you'll probably love both Mushi games if you enjoy the thematic feel of a game feeling like "summer" - even the ice sea in Futari feels like summer)

Toaplan aren't a "bullet-hell" team, but Batsugun does feel a lot like the Cave games, because it's basically designed by the same guy who designed Dodonpachi and many other later games. If you like DDP, you'll like Batsugun. If you like shooters being on the easier side, and don't have any strict scoring shenanigans, Batsugun will especially be appealing.

Batsugun isn't a typical Toaplan game though. While not strictly bullethell, it does have the feel of one. None of Toaplan's other games really feel that way. Maybe V-V does if we're being generous.

I mean, there will be a Batsugun Saturn Tribute Boosted by City-Connection, and then (maybe 1 year later) another version by M2? or M2 will make all the other Taoplan's titles but not this?

M2 will release Basugun eventually, and it'll be much better than this release. That much is pretty much set in stone.
But we don't know when it's coming. It could easily be a few years. Their pace is extremely slow.

Thanks for the info!
In what way the M2 port can be better than this release?

[Sumez]

Less than 8 frames of input lag would be the primary one. M2 are generally recognized for their dedication to responsive controls and an incredibly precise replication of arcade originals. Expect probably new remixed modes (though for their Toaplan releases so far, it's been limited to only a somewhat disappointing "Super Easy" mode) alongside every available arcade revision (ie. both Regular and Special roms) and a whole ton of optional unique gadgets that displays every kind of information you could wish for on screen, similar to their other releases:



But in general, emulating the Saturn port of an arcade game on yet another platform just sounds completely crazy to me, and a point that's been perpetuated for every "S-Tribute" release so far. But if you're fine with that approach, it's probably not a deal breaker.

[Flycast]

Less than 8 frames of input lag would be the primary one. M2 are generally recognized for their dedication to responsive controls and an incredibly precise replication of arcade originals. Expect probably new remixed modes (though for their Toaplan releases so far, it's been limited to only a somewhat disappointing "Super Easy" mode) alongside every available arcade revision (ie. both Regular and Special roms) and a whole ton of optional unique gadgets that displays every kind of information you could wish for on screen, similar to their other releases:

This and Battle Garegga are the 2 game that interests me more actually.
But...
Problem 1: Battle Garegga Rev.2016 is available only on the NA and JP PSN Stores. Batgusun i don't know if it will be available on the PSN.
Problem 2: Physical copies are impossible to find for Garegga.
Problem 3: i can emulate both the Arcade version in a godlike manner, but i find this route not satisfing enough because of the part that i've underlined...

[Steven]

Saturn Batsugun itself is mostly running on emulation instead of being a true port, so you actually have whatever system you are playing it on emulating the Saturn at least partially emulating the PCB. There's a reason that the company is referred to as Shitty Connection other than the fact that that's more or less how it's pronounced in Japanese, too. I really should have tried the PC version the other day when I had the chance and now I regret it.

Anyway, if bullet hell is what you want, go on Steam and find this thing called Crimzon Clover World EXplosion. It's 40% off, although I think that ends in 10 minutes.

[Rastan78]

I double dipped and picked up the S-Tribute Rayforce before the Ray'z version came out. Playing them back to back really highlights the difference in response. I know every time one of these comes out there will be people who say the lag wasn't noticable. IMO this could be bc there just isn't a 1:1 comparison to be made with a better way to play the same title. Trust me if you put in a good few hours with Ray'z, enough to really acclimate to the controls, then directly swap to S-Tribute it will feel like a big stinky butt crack at 6 or 7 frames of lag. And I say that as someone who had fun tooling around with the CC version and doesn't regret the purchase.

Then there's the pricing. When you charge 30 USD for one port without many special features that's a premium price point. Your stepping into near Shottriggers Garegga level of pricing here. If these things were 8.99 then they would well deserve an upgrade from Shitty all the way up to Sucky Connection.

[Bassa-Bassa]

The arranged soundtrack for Tribute is supposedly kind of premium, and very unlikely to be in an M2 iteration, whatever that happens, if it ever happens. It should, as Saturn Batsugun was not an arcade perfect port, but we all may well be dead by then.

[Flycast]

There's a reason that the company is referred to as Shitty Connection other than the fact that that's more or less how it's pronounced in Japanese, too.

I'm sure that this doesn't help the Company lol...

Anyway, if bullet hell is what you want, go on Steam and find this thing called Crimzon Clover World EXplosion. It's 40% off, although I think that ends in 10 minutes.

Too late...

Then there's the pricing. When you charge 30 USD for one port without many special features that's a premium price point. Your stepping into near Shottriggers Garegga level of pricing here. If these things were 8.99 then they would well deserve an upgrade from Shitty all the way up to Sucky Connection.

This Is an interesting OT argument on how the audience perceives the game also on It's price tag and how M2 setted a trend/staple for the Price/Quality.

The arranged soundtrack for Tribute is supposedly kind of premium, and very unlikely to be in an M2 iteration, whatever that happens, if it ever happens. It should, as Saturn Batsugun was not an arcade perfect port, but we all may well be dead by then.

This Is a +1!
But i can't understand If is their streaming quality bad (maybe they have a "shitty-connection") or if the game looks more refined on the background but more blurry in motion that the arcade...

[pja]

Saturn Batsugun itself is mostly running on emulation instead of being a true port, so you actually have whatever system you are playing it on emulating the Saturn at least partially emulating the PCB

I'm sorry but do you have any source for the first claim (that Batsugun Saturn is not a native port but it uses some sort of emulation)? I would personally be very surprised if any Saturn port of the era was actually running an emulator (maybe except emulating some very old systems like these MSX Antiques collections), since I have serious doubts that a Saturn is even remotely powerful enough to emulate a Toaplan board.

[Steven]

Saturn Batsugun itself is mostly running on emulation instead of being a true port, so you actually have whatever system you are playing it on emulating the Saturn at least partially emulating the PCB

I'm sorry but do you have any source for the first claim (that Batsugun Saturn is not a native port but it uses some sort of emulation)? I would personally be very surprised if any Saturn port of the era was actually running an emulator (maybe except emulating some very old systems like these MSX Antiques collections), since I have serious doubts that a Saturn is even remotely powerful enough to emulate a Toaplan board.

Yeah, it was an interview with Uemura-san that was on Gamengai. The website is down now, but there should be an archive of the interview somewhere.

Found it: https://web.archive.org/web/20201010170 ... d=2332&p=5

[The End of Gazelle Was More Dramatic Than Toaplan]

Iona: Did Gazelle have any plans to port other Toaplan games?

Uemura: Well, it was titled Shooting Battle 1, after all (laughs).

Iona: Anyone would assume there would be a 2.

Uemura: I think that was the plan, yes.

Iona: And they only put out one arcade shooter.

Uemura: Akuu Galette. That was made by the staff that I brought from Toaplan.

Iona: Did the same team develop the Toaplan console ports?

Uemura: No. There was a different team that handled the console game line, but even then the same people didn't make Batsugun and Toaplan Shooting Battle. They were all fantastic technicians. They basically copied the game over exactly like it was.

Iona: So the ports weren't in fact made by Toaplan using techniques and knowledge gained on previous Toaplan projects.

Uemura: It was mostly done with emulation, and done well, so even the most hardcore will be pleased with it.

[Sumez]

Honestly, "emulation" is a very vague term when it comes down to the technical side of it.

[Steven]

It also doesn't really matter if a game is being run by a software emulator or running natively in most instances, but City Connection is not exactly known for being able to consistently put out the same level of quality. Can they properly emulate a Saturn that is emulating a Batsugun PCB? We'll find out in a few weeks.

At least they'll have the audio working properly and enemies actually spawning when they are supposed to, which is more than we can say about Bitwave. I just want City Connection Batsugun for the cool stuff in the limited edition, so if the PS4 version is good, I'll probably keep it for Joker Jun to sign when I see him again and then buy and actually play City Connection's PC version instead of on the PS5 or Bitwave's PC version.

Oh cool, there is some more information on the book included in the limited edition now: a message from Yuge-san, interviews with Tataka Yuuko and Joker Jun, and some of the design documents from the cancelled Batsugun sequel will be in there. Probably worth buying just for that, I think.

[Flycast]

Maybe i'm a noob, but:

Screen Size difference ?
(0:38 -> 0:45) (Trailer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOnvWgtvnFY

and there are any real difference ???

(AC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB9CvPjGX5A

(AC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjwbpYQE_o

(Saturn)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPPMqClhpBk

[Manualmartin]

M2 will release Basugun eventually

Eventually can be very long. The first Toaplan releases from M2 still haven't found their way out of Japan. It has never been easier to release digitally on PlayStation and Switch, yet M2 select to ignore (or to put it mildly de-prioritize) everyone outside of Japan.

[Sumez]

I'm talking about a Japanese release, obviously. All modern consoles are region free, so it's really not much of an issue.

[EmperorIng]

Maybe i'm a noob, but:

Screen Size difference ?
(0:38 -> 0:45) (Trailer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOnvWgtvnFY

and there are any real difference ???

(AC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB9CvPjGX5A

(AC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjwbpYQE_o

(Saturn)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPPMqClhpBk

Yes, the saturn port's Yoko mode cuts out the top and bottom of the screen and feels zoomed in. You will notice it for sure on the stage 2 boss when you suddenly find that you have less room to dodge and maneuver.

I don't know if you can auto-rotate this S-Tribute's tate mode but that seems like the only logical way to play and enjoy the game unless you are content with extremely casual credit-feeding.

[Steven]

I don't know if you can auto-rotate this S-Tribute's tate mode

You can

[Manualmartin]

I'm talking about a Japanese release, obviously. All modern consoles are region free, so it's really not much of an issue.

Yes, but you have to purchase the games from specialist retailers in Japan or other importer and get punished with expensive freight or general high prices. Or hustling with other accounts for digital downloads (which is ok on Switch to register, but not possible on PS4 to my knowledge?).

It's a not very player-friendly approach to forcing your fans to jump through hoops to access the games. It would be easier if they just release the games digitally global or make deals with local publishers to sell the games physically outside Japan (like they did with Limited Run for Battle Garegga and Dangun Feveron). Trust me, there are many who wants to do that, so not lack of interest... M2 may be good at porting but they are no saints when it comes to catering to players outside of Japan...

[Sumez]

Yes, but you have to purchase the games from specialist retailers in Japan or other importer and get punished with expensive freight or general high prices. Or hustling with other accounts for digital downloads (which is ok on Switch to register, but not possible on PS4 to my knowledge?).

There are very few ways to even get physical games nowadays outside of ordering them online, so whether I order from the next town over or from Japan isn't gonna make a difference. In fact, Amazon JP often ships faster than any domestic stores lol. I'd definitely not file that under "jumping through hoops" like you do.

The bigger issue of course is cost, but that's completely unrelated. M2's shottriggers titles are already rather expensive compared to the standard for these kinds of releases, so it's really a question of whether you feel like it's worth putting up with that.

It's a not very player-friendly approach to forcing your fans to jump through hoops to access the games. It would be easier if they just release the games digitally global or make deals with local publishers to sell the games physically outside Japan (like they did with Limited Run for Battle Garegga and Dangun Feveron).

I'm sorry, but that claim is absurd. I'll agree as much as a wide international release would obviously be an improvement.
But importing a game via LRG definitely involves hell a lot more loop-jumping than getting it from one of a number of japanese retailers, so that comparison really makes no sense. There's absolutely no logical way limiting your release to a single distributor via some sort of monopoly deal is more player-friendly compared just making a regular physical release in their home region. Even less so when said retailer straight up promises they'll only print a limited supply, and won't reprint even if there's a demand.
I know you're biased in this context of course, but you gotta at least admit as much.

[Manualmartin]

Limited Run is just one example, there're many other publishers, including European that would love to sell the M2 games (in regards to importing). I can understand the toll and shipment costs on Limited Run, don't want to derail there, but will just mention that there is an European store for faster and cheaper shipping being worked on.

We definitively agree on one things at least:
a wide international release would obviously be an improvement

Until that happen I remain firm in my position that M2 are not perfect given their attitude and lackluster interest to cater to players outside of Japan. They should at least do the minimum effort to make the games available globally digitally, they have the rights to do so and nothing is stopping them from selling all Toaplan games outside of Japan.

[pulsemod]

Or hustling with other accounts for digital downloads (which is ok on Switch to register, but not possible on PS4 to my knowledge?).

very easy on PS4/5 as well, pretty much the same situation as switch. obviously more work in adding funds than just having a linked card though.

[Bassa-Bassa]

They should at least do the minimum effort to make the games available globally digitally, they have the rights to do so and nothing is stopping them from selling all Toaplan games outside of Japan.

They should? It's a Japanese company making Japanese products for the Japanese market. Why is that so hard to swallow? Because it's a videogame?

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

I don't subscribe to this idea that it's because M2 only care about the Japanese market, it probably comes down to profitability. First and foremost they're a business and they have to make money; if they could release worldwide and sell another million copies I'm sure they would. They seemed quite happy to do publicity with My Life in Gaming, for example.

Obviously they aren't going to sell another million copies though and both M2 themselves, as well as any third-party publisher who might be interested in localisations, know that these games have a small, hardcore fan base who will just buy the Japanese versions anyway, so it's unlikely to be worthwhile.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I don't subscribe to this idea that it's because M2 only care about the Japanese market, it probably comes down to profitability.

So they don't care enough. Whatever. The point is that this mentality that a Japanese videogame maker owes to the Westerners their own version is nuts, even these days.

Now, I'm not saying that discussion is not interesting - would M2 release proper versions for the West if foreign people weren't importing their games as they unmistakably are?

In my eyes, the less the time they dedicate to non-game creation stuff, the better. And worrying about legal compliance for every freaking country is time consuming for such a small company. Enough that they had to bow to the Nintendo Switch, isn't it? So look at the issue from this perspective, it's not like you can't purchase their games, as it has been said.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Someone from the West who wants it can still get it, the beauty of a physical release.

It's not simple to release it worldwide digitally. There's bureacracy to get it onto the storefronts (presumably why Xbox Battle Garegga was so fragmented - Germany but not UK?!) and at the price point, it's not going to get much casual interest especially if it's in Japanese. So then you have to translate it - so at a minimum that's English, Spanish, Portuguese, French and German. Even if you skimp on a proper translator (which you shouldn't, enough of devaluing skilled work by using something functional courtesy of AI), there's the extra test effort to make sure it all behaves. And then dev effort for bugfixes if it doesn't. Then you have to sell enough to make it worthwhile - which you probably won't because the enthusiasts will have picked up the JP physical release rather than a digital regional release. So you then have to line up regional physical releases from the outset (or you lose your market to the JP physical, courtesy of FOMO).

That's a fuckload of effort for something which isn't exactly selling like hotcakes in Japan.

Better to do what they're doing to get the games out - pick up the casual retro market with Evercade and cheap PC releases.

[Manualmartin]

I've worked with games publishing since the Nintendo DS. It has never been easier to release games globally. Age ratings are free with IARC and translate store texts is super cheap for that amount of characters. There are no manual account managers approving as it's on physical, everything is made in portals and they're already set-up for publishing. So that argument doesn't hold up. They're just literally making it more difficult for players to get the games and limiting their market. As a licensor, it's painful to see. For the hardcore audience here that's dedicated enough, know about the games and how get them or account creation in other regions, maybe it's a small thing, but for general audience no.

Physical are associated with costs, you have to upfront pay manufacturing and shipment, and then sell to distributors - often with price protection. And age rating like PEGI, ESRB and USK comes with 4-figure €/$ cost. There's more work in operations, approvals and actual risks. But those risks are on the publisher side, not the developer side. An European or North American publisher would assume those risk. So not a risk for M2.

[Sumez]

It's not actually more difficult, though? It's just as easy to order a game from Amazon JP or Play-Asia as it is to order it from anywhere else.

The only approaches that actually makes it harder to buy games is the distributors that make a business out of only offering it for a limited time, catering to shelf collectors rather than fans. But we put up with those because we know well those games probably wouldn't have gotten a physical run otherwise.

[Manualmartin]

Getting off-topic, but most physical direct-to-consumer with limited editions now runs "open pre-order" which means they order as many as they get pre-orders of, which minimize scalpers that buy to resell. So if you snooze during the pre-order phase you loose. Some like Strictly Limited still run a certain number but they rarely sell-out directly.

Challenge with physical is that Sony and Nintendo got "minimum order quantity" which means it's difficult to make second runs unless your game is big enough, which applies for all publishers. Could be a situation where you sell 5000 units but only have re-orders of 800 units, then you have to order more and take the risk of having them on stock. And if it doesn't sell you have to discount them and make a loss.

Everything with digital is so much easier now, especially compared to physical. I'm so surprised by publishers who don't go global on Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and Steam. It's so easy now. There's a reason why we get so many digital releases on Steam and Switch, maybe too many...