M2 ShotTriggers DDP Daioujou Rinne Tensei

[DMC]

What I'd really like to do is be able to play this game on something like difficulty 7 from the arcade challenge mode for the entire game. Sadly there is no way to achieve this without having the rewind feature cutting in all the time. You'd still have something that would be very hard to 1cc but it wouldn't be utterly pointless like the default settings. Setting any of the arcade modes to easy doesn't get close to this unfortunately. It barely seems to make any difference to anything.

So, did you try Blue Wish Resurrection?

[DrTrouserPlank]

What I'd really like to do is be able to play this game on something like difficulty 7 from the arcade challenge mode for the entire game. Sadly there is no way to achieve this without having the rewind feature cutting in all the time. You'd still have something that would be very hard to 1cc but it wouldn't be utterly pointless like the default settings. Setting any of the arcade modes to easy doesn't get close to this unfortunately. It barely seems to make any difference to anything.

So, did you try Blue Wish Resurrection?

Wouldn't work with a controller, nor would the demo of the one on steam.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Wouldn't work with a controller, nor would the demo of the one on steam.

Just use JoyToKey then and map your controller to the appropriate keyboard inputs. Easy fix.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Hooked up a brand new Innocn 15.6" oled 1080p portable monitor to my oled Switch in dock mode and running/playing DDP-DOJ Rinne Tensei on it is absolutely stunning/jaw-dropping (as it's running at 60hz in 1080p format with M2's built-in scanline filter and absolutely "no dead pixels" issue to deal/contend with whatsoever). Truly drop-dead gorgeous overall visual presentation through and through -- it doesn't get any better than this, folks.

Just need to get an reputable and reliable HDMI audio extractor amp + a good 2.1 pc speaker setup and it's all good in the audio department (as the oled portable monitor's built-in internal speakers are rated at a measly 1 watt at best). Sure makes quite a difference hooking up a Switch to a bigger sized oled monitor setup indeed.

What would a good but adequate 2.1 pc speaker setup be recommended?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Jonpachi]

OLED screen is gonna have a bit of lag though, correct? There’s not really a good pro gaming OLED yet. It might look nice, but the extra frames would bother me.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

So then it'd be better to go with a pro-led or pro-lcd gaming monitor then? What would be recommended in going that route (to minimize the dreaded "frame lag" issue associated with oled monitors in general)?

I recall in another shmups thread about arcade stg pcbs in general with frame lag issues (including the Cave/IGS PGM-based Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou arcade jamma pcb having "1 frame of lag"). Really fascinating thread/topic nevertheless when you'd think arcade hardware/software would be the all high-and-mighty "gold standard/holy grail" plateau/benchmark (that Mame emulation would strive/attain to replicate at their closest approximate settings) without that particular "frame lag" issue to deal with either. Arcade hardware/software isn't immune from frame lag issues -- so be it. It is what it is.

Even the Exa-Arcadia port of Dodonpachi Sai-Dai-Ou-Jou has "1 frame of lag" besting it's Cave SH-3 counterpart namesake pcb of the same name with "2 frames of lag" issue at hand. That'd make the Exa port of DDP-SDOJ the definitive version to own/play then. It's rare to have a newer arcade gaming platform beat SH-3 based arcade hardware "performance-wise". It's been said Cave really struggled with developing SDOJ on the aging SH-3 hardware but managed to pull through with it.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[ThundergunExpress]

I'm sorry I'm not trying to stir anything up, but when discussing 1 or 2 frames of lag- is it even humanly possible to be able to even tell?

I have seen people complaining about games with 4 total frames of input lag but it feels almost instantaneous to me? Maybe I'm so trash or my senses are so terrible but I don't notice until 5 frames or more.

[mirkvid]

PC Engine Fan, you really gonna brag about that setup and not post pics?!

[brokenhalo]

I'm sorry I'm not trying to stir anything up, but when discussing 1 or 2 frames of lag- is it even humanly possible to be able to even tell?

I have seen people complaining about games with 4 total frames of input lag but it feels almost instantaneous to me? Maybe I'm so trash or my senses are so terrible but I don't notice until 5 frames or more.

It can be noticeable, especially when you're very familiar with a game in one form, and then try to play it on a set-up with a couple extra frames of lag. Vast majority of games, an extra frame or 2 of lag really wouldn't matter. But when dealing with arcade games in general (fighting, shmups, rhythm, etc) it can really make a difference, especially at higher levels of play/skill.

[ThundergunExpress]

Yeah I think my awfulness with the genre is clouding my judgement like I figured lol. I honestly didn't know 1 or 2 frames could be felt by humans and I'm someone who was lucky enough to have several arcades to spend way too much of my youth in.

[evil_ash_xero]

Yeah I think my awfulness with the genre is clouding my judgement like I figured lol. I honestly didn't know 1 or 2 frames could be felt by humans and I'm someone who was lucky enough to have several arcades to spend way too much of my youth in.

Yeah, you can feel 1 or 2 frames. 1 frame is a little more unnoticeable, but 2 frames... yeah, that's no good.
I'm pretty picky, but when you're talking about shmups or old school games, you can't help but notice.

[Steven]

I can't tell the difference between 1 frame of lag and 6 frames of lag in almost all cases. It's all the same to me. Once it hits 7 and above I'll start to notice it.

There are exceptions, though. Playing Slap Fight on PCB seems exactly the same as playing it on PC on the BitWave release, but playing it on MAME feels laggy and gross as fuck, which is part of why I don't use MAME anymore.

[DrTrouserPlank]

What I'd really like to do is be able to play this game on something like difficulty 7 from the arcade challenge mode for the entire game. Sadly there is no way to achieve this without having the rewind feature cutting in all the time. You'd still have something that would be very hard to 1cc but it wouldn't be utterly pointless like the default settings. Setting any of the arcade modes to easy doesn't get close to this unfortunately. It barely seems to make any difference to anything.

So, did you try Blue Wish Resurrection?

Yeah it's not for me. The whole presentation is too grating.

[el_rika]

I'm sorry I'm not trying to stir anything up, but when discussing 1 or 2 frames of lag- is it even humanly possible to be able to even tell?

Many people that play arcade games on a daily basis (shmups in particular) are very sensitive to input delay.

Every extra frame of lag is noticeable.


Also, it is true that the muscle memory can adapt to a higher input delay after some time, but in my experience, anything above 5 frames of lag becomes problematic at high level.

[Creamy Goodness]

In a vacuum I'm not really sensitive to lag, but I am playing Donpachi now and recently played it for a bit on my less optimal setup and it felt way off. I started playing on that device and it didn't really feel laggy until I went back to it.

[samspot]

Lag is all cumulative. A frame or two from your input device, one from your monitor, then you are just a little too tired… add that to 3-4 built in to the game and it all stacks up for a bad time. Slowdown sections or a hot device can affect it too. It’s best to minimize at every chance.

[ASDR]

Some dumb questions, hopefully somebody knows:

- In the control settings M2 has their usual rapid fire options. Considering the PCB auto fire option is enabled is there ever any reason to use this? Do I want some 40x rapid fire shot button assigned for some reason?

- What exactly does that last option in the Other Settings menu do? Translation is something about accurately emulating the original arcade board BGM sound. It's on by default. Is that some kind of filter that makes it sound more like an arcade cabinet or is that some kind of bug-by-bug emulation of the original arcade sound chip?

- Is there a difference between playing White Label and selecting 'Old Game' in the Black Label version? I assume it's the exact same thing?

Also, still bummed out that this port has most of its features reserved for White Label only. Would be so awesome to have all three challenge / training game types for all the modes, including the arranges, super easy, DDP3, Black Label. It's also really annoying that M2 doesn't have a scaling option that just removes shimmering. You can either get integer scaling or stretch-to-screen, but then you get shimmering. Interpolation turns on full bilinear filtering (never go full bilinear...).

[PC Engine Fan X!]

On Cave/IGS's PGM based DDP-DOJ BL jamma pcb release, did Cave go back and fix all the bugs/issues with DDP-DOJ WL or left it as is "unchanged/unfixed" within the overall total BL packaged deal (and the BL version has rectified/fixed all bugs and other issues associated with the WL version, thus making it the "definitive" version that Cave wanted to create from the very beginning of it's development)?

I recall that Cave only manufactured a scant 100 genuine jamma pcbs of the DDP-DOJ BL variant (making it quite expensive/valuable as it already is). Of course, there's the infamous hacked/modified rom of DDP-DOJ BL that allows the ability to "save both high scores and high score initials" with the on-board Varta battery and used on a real DDP-DOJ WL pcb setup.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[eksratu]

I'm a few months into playing this port, and as a shmup newbie who enjoys other Cave games, I feel like I bought into the M2 hype too much. I'm falling out of love with DOJ.

The Rinne Tensei port itself is kinda wack in a lot of ways, from its focus on WL to its strangely laggy menus to the lack of music options (and customization in general) compared to other ShotTriggers releases. And I know it's my own fault for playing on Switch with a wireless controller, but there's also a surprising amount of input lag. I'm not normally one to nitpick about something I can't even notice, but it's pretty rough on the Switch and probably higher than the 3 or 4 frames measurement that gets tossed around.

DOJ itself is also not really impressing me anymore. The audio and visuals are as slick as ever, but I have a lot of problems with bullet visibility on bosses 2 and 4. The needles and light blue mini-bullets blend right into the background! The random spread on most patterns is also annoying, especially in the second loop. It feels like my runs get cut short basically right after Koryuu through no fault of my own. How do I better predict or dodge those extra bullets?

[ASDR]

its strangely laggy menus

The main menu is straight up broken when you first boot up the game and just eats half of your inputs. I found it works fine after actually playing one of the modes, so it's only an issue on cold boot. I generally just play one game per console and just leave the Switch on standby indefinitely, so it's not really an issue for me in practice.

its focus on WL

Yeah that sucks big time.

And I know it's my own fault for playing on Switch with a wireless controller, but there's also a surprising amount of input lag

I really can't confirm this, it feels good to me. Wireless Pro Controller is actually one of the lowest lag options on Switch and basically all wired options are slower. The game itself runs as good as always with M2.


My main issue with this game is just its retarded difficulty. I'm having lots of issues with BL on easy The routing and chaining are just so strict. Hence the really unfortunate decision by M2 to focus to release on the hardest mode of the game...

[eksratu]

I had no idea wired was slower than wireless on Switch. Back when I was playing a lot of Smash, I think the wired Gamecube controllers were roughly the same as the wireless pros. Or maybe the Gamecubes were slightly faster, but it couldn't have been by much. My current 8BitDo Neo Geo pad is comfortable to use for shmups, but I wonder if the adapter is just not super great.

I am going to be keeping my Switch in standby mode from now on--the menu lag annoys me more than it should.

[ASDR]

I had no idea wired was slower than wireless on Switch. Back when I was playing a lot of Smash, I think the wired Gamecube controllers were roughly the same as the wireless pros. Or maybe the Gamecubes were slightly faster, but it couldn't have been by much. My current 8BitDo Neo Geo pad is comfortable to use for shmups, but I wonder if the adapter is just not super great.

I am going to be keeping my Switch in standby mode from now on--the menu lag annoys me more than it should.

There's something messed up about the USB stack of the Switch and wired is absolutely slower. For instance turning on wired pro controller communication in the settings is slower than using it wireless. They keep that off by default for a reason, it seems. Dock also adds a frame of lag for HDMI output.

The Neo Geo CD pads are fun. I have the PS2 version made by SNK and I actually played the Arika DOJ port with it.

The menu bug is kinda ridiculous. I can't remember ever having a commercial game where friggin main menu is broken. Not a good omen, maybe this one needed a few more months in the oven before shipping...

[RobHimself]

Can't say I've had any issues with the PS4 release so far with either input lag or menus.

Anyone find any quirks with the PS4 version?

[Fingolfin]

MSX Mark’s done lots of testing as well but with regard to Switch input lag, Shmup Junkie’s done extensive testing on several levels regarding Switch lag using different setups (i.e. docked vs handheld vs table top) and controller options.

Regarding Switch input lag see below links to Shmup Junkie’s breakdowns: in short, wired inputs are better than wireless Pro Controller however Joycons wireless are the BEST OPTION (regardless of docked, handheld or tabletop wireless) for STGs and lowest input lag on Switch.

Shmup Junkie Nintendo SWITCH Shmups LAG TESTED!
https://youtu.be/U3GKfvuMTpM?si=_bAmbwx3qyQXqjTA

Shmup Junkie Ultimate SWITCH Controller Shootout
https://youtu.be/1H0tri4MQ0c?si=1jtBT9Aoo0qNBgVH

All this certainly applies to playing DDP DOJ Rinne Tensei. Happy shooting!

@RobHimself
No. PS4 has no laggy menus and all around less lag than Switch.

[ASDR]

wired inputs are better than wireless Pro Controller

That's not supported by the video you linked or any other analysis I've seen. It's basically joycons, wireless pro controller and then everything else.

[eksratu]

There's something messed up about the USB stack of the Switch and wired is absolutely slower. For instance turning on wired pro controller communication in the settings is slower than using it wireless. They keep that off by default for a reason, it seems. Dock also adds a frame of lag for HDMI output.

That's good intel on the dock, thanks. My pad connects through the side USB ports, so my lag might actually be coming from that.

MSX Mark’s done lots of testing as well but with regard to Switch input lag, Shmup Junkie’s done extensive testing on several levels regarding Switch lag using different setups (i.e. docked vs handheld vs table top) and controller options.

Regarding Switch input lag see below links to Shmup Junkie’s breakdowns: in short, wired inputs are better than wireless Pro Controller however Joycons wireless are the BEST OPTION (regardless of docked, handheld or tabletop wireless) for STGs and lowest input lag on Switch.

Shmup Junkie Nintendo SWITCH Shmups LAG TESTED!
https://youtu.be/U3GKfvuMTpM?si=_bAmbwx3qyQXqjTA

Shmup Junkie Ultimate SWITCH Controller Shootout
https://youtu.be/1H0tri4MQ0c?si=1jtBT9Aoo0qNBgVH

All this certainly applies to playing DDP DOJ Rinne Tensei. Happy shooting!

@RobHimself
No. PS4 has no laggy menus and all around less lag than Switch.

Yeah these videos seem to suggest what ASDR is--use wireless, not wired.

[Fingolfin]

Shmup Junkie’s tests using Ikaruga on Switch from video #2

Wireless Joycon BT = 3.65 frames

Official Nintendo Pro wired = 5.2 frames
Official Nintendo Pro wireless BT= 4.35 frames

Hayabusa Real Arcade Pro V USB = 4.3 frames

4.3 < 4.35

Different setups — TVs/Monitors and controllers will vary of course.

Curious what tests you’ve seen online that offer other results besides MSX Mark and Shmup Junkie ASDR.

It would seem that there are a number of variables besides lag testing setups that can complicate input lag testing.

[eksratu]

Shmup Junkie’s tests using Ikaruga on Switch from video #2

Wireless Joycon BT = 3.65 frames

Official Nintendo Pro wired = 5.2 frames
Official Nintendo Pro wireless BT= 4.35 frames

Hayabusa Real Arcade Pro V USB = 4.3 frames

4.3 < 4.35

Different setups — TVs/Monitors and controllers will vary of course.

Curious what tests you’ve seen online that offer other results besides MSX Mark and Shmup Junkie ASDR.

It would seem that there are a number of variables besides lag testing setups that can complicate input lag testing.

The first video's segment at 4:21 suggests the opposite, though maybe it was game-specific. His wired pro con had a delay of 124 ms, while over BT it was at 116 ms.

EDIT I think we're talking in circles--Fingolfin, you're right about a 3rd party controller existing that surpasses Nintendo's first-party stuff. That is true. What is also true is that the wired controllers going through the Switch dock have additionally lag over BT on those same controllers.

I tried playing more DOJ today with the joycons, and man I am not a fan of how they feel. But there is certainly a touch less input lag with them than with my 8BitDo Neo Geo thing through its own adapter.

[ASDR]

Shmup Junkie’s tests using Ikaruga on Switch from video #2

Wireless Joycon BT = 3.65 frames

Official Nintendo Pro wired = 5.2 frames
Official Nintendo Pro wireless BT= 4.35 frames

Hayabusa Real Arcade Pro V USB = 4.3 frames

4.3 < 4.35

Different setups — TVs/Monitors and controllers will vary of course.

Curious what tests you’ve seen online that offer other results besides MSX Mark and Shmup Junkie ASDR.

It would seem that there are a number of variables besides lag testing setups that can complicate input lag testing.

But that's what I tried to say, the Joycons are the fastest, the pro controller is faster wireless than wired and most controllers seem to be faster wireless as well. In the first video he tests a 3rd party pro controller that is also about half a frame faster wireless. So there are a few wired solutions that can match the pro controller wireless speed, but that's the exception, i.e. the results of most RetroBit etc. controllers wired was slower than a wireless pro. If you want low lag the best option seems to be use joycons (ugh), wireless pro controller or get that one unicorn arcard stick / arcade stick platform that performs as good as that. That being said I have a hard time telling the difference with that extra half frame of lag in practice... I mostly stick with the pro controller as I genuinely like it and sometimes use a few of my wired controllers from Hori/RetroBit as they offer more MD/Saturn style Dpads.

[Fingolfin]

Yes. Joycons are best input lag wise but who wants to play anything (maybe other than Mario Kart, Super Smash or Mario Party) using joycons for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

I enjoy the convenience and comfort of Nintendo Pro controllers but the analog controllers start to have drift within dozens of hours of play or less (also true for joycons).

We do now seem like we’re in agreement.

I think of Switch USB controller and immediately think of Hayabusa RAP Pro V but there are lots of different USB and wireless options for Switch and though not all are covered by Shmup Junkie, he does test a bunch of likely options with a range of choices.

I still play STGs on Switch but if it’s between Switch and PS4 then I’ll always go with PS4
a) because I don’t play handheld or table top and b) due to input lag issues. Not an option for excellent Switch only titles like Raizon EX though.

PS4’s a whole other set of variables with the PS4 DS controllers literally being like 0 zip zilch input lag and just a wee bit (very technical term there) for USB options (and then of course we could talk a good long while about 360 wired vs wireless….).

I’m a scrub player; in spite of LOFT (lack of fucking talent) I have decades of muscle memory playing arcade games and am very sensitive to input lag. I’m almost 55 (in 4 months) and have arthritis, back pain, etc. Only bring this up because these health issues do factor into playing STGs w/ maximum comfort, maximum mobility, etc and — most importantly — maximum responsiveness for playing.

I uninstalled both all the Shitty Connection Psikyo ports and all of Capcom Arcade Stadium on Switch; when I play those exact game collections on PC it’s night and day how much better and less input laggy they are there (regardless of V-sync). Capcom Arcade Stadium is much better than Psikyo STGs on Switch but there’s still a big enough difference that I don’t ever want or need to play those on Switch again.