Toaplan games coming to PC (Steam, GOG)

[MJR]

One thing confuses me though with Tiger Heli, the powerup tiles have different graphics compared to M2 version. In M2 version on switch, they appear as arrows, indicating the direction the small helis will shoot. In Bitwave version, there are no arrows, but only single set of tiles, which give you small helis who always shoot at your side. Looks like they are having another version confusion here if they think their version is the only one (no, I couldn't switch versions from the menu).

M2 changed the graphics; BitWave used the original graphics that are on the PCB. M2 also changed the powerups in Get Star in the same way, as it uses crosses on the powerups on PCB just like Tiger-Heli. This is likely a colorblindness thing because they said someone at M2 who is working on ShotTriggers is colorblind, which is also why Teki-Paki has a bunch of colorblind options.

That's interesting.. Thanks!

[Steven]

One thing confuses me though with Tiger Heli, the powerup tiles have different graphics compared to M2 version. In M2 version on switch, they appear as arrows, indicating the direction the small helis will shoot. In Bitwave version, there are no arrows, but only single set of tiles, which give you small helis who always shoot at your side. Looks like they are having another version confusion here if they think their version is the only one (no, I couldn't switch versions from the menu).

M2 changed the graphics; BitWave used the original graphics that are on the PCB. M2 also changed the powerups in Get Star in the same way, as it uses crosses on the powerups on PCB just like Tiger-Heli. This is likely a colorblindness thing because they said someone at M2 who is working on ShotTriggers is colorblind, which is also why Teki-Paki has a bunch of colorblind options.

That's interesting.. Thanks!

Sure, no problem.

I just remembered the helicopter speed DIP switch for Tiger-Heli. How is it implemented? For Japan it should be set to fast and overseas should have normal or slow or whatever it's called. I hope they automatically toggle it when you switch versions, but if they don't know about that...

At least, I think that's how it is supposed to be configured. Need to do more research, but I do know Japan should be set to fast because that's how M2 has it in arcade mode and it can't be changed.

[MJR]

M2 changed the graphics; BitWave used the original graphics that are on the PCB. M2 also changed the powerups in Get Star in the same way, as it uses crosses on the powerups on PCB just like Tiger-Heli. This is likely a colorblindness thing because they said someone at M2 who is working on ShotTriggers is colorblind, which is also why Teki-Paki has a bunch of colorblind options.

That's interesting.. Thanks!

Sure, no problem.

I just remembered the helicopter speed DIP switch for Tiger-Heli. How is it implemented? For Japan it should be set to fast and overseas should have normal or slow or whatever it's called. I hope they automatically toggle it when you switch versions, but if they don't know about that...

At least, I think that's how it is supposed to be configured. Need to do more research, but I do know Japan should be set to fast because that's how M2 has it in arcade mode and it can't be changed.

It can be changed in game settings, default is indeed normal, but I changed it to fast because that how I was used to play it. There are no region settings for Tiger Heli, which surprised me.

I could write a full page praising the level design of Tiger Heli how perfect it is, but I have work to do..

[Steven]

That's interesting.. Thanks!

Sure, no problem.

I just remembered the helicopter speed DIP switch for Tiger-Heli. How is it implemented? For Japan it should be set to fast and overseas should have normal or slow or whatever it's called. I hope they automatically toggle it when you switch versions, but if they don't know about that...

At least, I think that's how it is supposed to be configured. Need to do more research, but I do know Japan should be set to fast because that's how M2 has it in arcade mode and it can't be changed.

It can be changed in game settings, default is indeed normal, but I changed it to fast because that how I was used to play it. There are no region settings for Tiger Heli, which surprised me.

I could write a full page praising the level design of Tiger Heli how perfect it is, but I have work to do..

Okay. I will research the speed settings. Fortunately the operator manual is available in Kyuukyoku Tiger-Heli, so I can check the published defaults from an official source.

Tiger-Heli's level design is essentially perfect, though. It's so damn good that it might be the single most tightly-designed game Toaplan ever made.

Edit: found only one overseas manual so far, and it's in English but with German handwriting on it. Both it and the Japanese manual have fast as the default setting. God damn it Bitwave.

edit 2: I found another manual, this one from Romstar, that has normal speed recommended. I have no idea what to do anymore.

[Some-Mist]

I noticed some sound popping in fixeight in stage 2 that was kinda annoying, but otherwise I had a fun time with it today. idk who the best "ship" is, but zigragi owns and I love his special, but young's special goes through walls which is super useful.

for out zone, I actually do love the port. I love that I don't have to adjust autofire settings for flamethrower vs other guns and that if I use the autofire on the scoreboard I can actually type my initials. Slowdown feels pretty accurate too. In fixeight if you use the autofire on intials it'll spam it through

[donluca]

I might be interested in Batsugun.

Does anyone know if it's actually a completely reprogrammed port or just an emulator?

How does it compare to MAME?

[Steven]

Twin Cobra enemy spawns still are not fixed. There is one thing that I have never mentioned before, and that is the colors. Out Zone seems to have a red tint to everything. I have mentioned that the trucks or whatever on stage 1 flash the wrong color when damaged, but the entire game seems reddish to an extent. Kyuukyoku Tiger's colors look weird compared to M2's release, too. Does anyone else feel this way? It looks so strange to me.

Slowdown feels pretty accurate too.

I haven't played Out Zone that much, but the slowdown in Hellfire is completely fucked, and by that I mean it's completely missing. Hishouzame as well. This is both intentional on Bitwave's part (yes, I asked them about it) and arguably an upgrade since Hellfire runs like shit on PCB, but still...

Does anyone know if it's actually a completely reprogrammed port or just an emulator?

One of the devs said somewhere on the Steam forum for one of the games that these are closer to being ports than emulation, which is an odd thing to say because they are using a new version of the old Shark emulator, which is apparently based on the first release of MAME or something like that.

[RobHimself]

I hope you guys are reporting all these issues to Bitwave's discord at least or whatever their support channel is. How are they going to know if nobody tells them?

[MJR]

I hope you guys are reporting all these issues to Bitwave's discord at least or whatever their support channel is. How are they going to know if nobody tells them?

I believe they are still reading this thread, unless we got them too irritated

[spmbx]

Well, for outzone's version their response was literally "We used the version we found to be the better option", so i'm guessing that goes for a lot of the choices they made. I refunded back then and didn't buy the new ones so there's no way for me to give any feedback.

[MJR]

Well, for outzone's version their response was literally "We used the version we found to be the better option", so i'm guessing that goes for a lot of the choices they made. I refunded back then and didn't buy the new ones so there's no way for me to give any feedback.

Yeah, I remember it, and that was annoying. But it does not necessarily prove that they ignore feedback on general level, unless you want to project it so.

[donluca]

One of the devs said somewhere on the Steam forum for one of the games that these are closer to being ports than emulation, which is an odd thing to say because they are using a new version of the old Shark emulator, which is apparently based on the first release of MAME or something like that.

Thanks, I'll stick to MAME.

[MaXXX]

Is there any reason to buy the new Batsugun port if I already have the Saturn Tribute one?

[Some-Mist]

Is there any reason to buy the new Batsugun port if I already have the Saturn Tribute one?

as someone else said, it being based on the arcade version instead of the saturn port is a plus, but the bitwave version sound does make my ears bleed and I thought the city connection release was just fine. my primary reason to buy is to support a new publisher in the genre. as much as people wanted to shit on the city connection version for input lag (even though I don't see most of their scores posted here), I thought the city connection port met my needs and had a nice arrange soundtrack.

for $8 budget releases, I can overlook a lot of the issues, and their continued patch releases are a plus even though they aren't transparent with bugs and what they're fixing

I wouldn't have believed you if you told me 10 years ago we were gonna get toaplan releases on steam which is a miracle in itself

[Sumez]

The previous eight games got an update today. New patch with fixes?

Did they Fix Eight games?

I hope you guys are reporting all these issues to Bitwave's discord at least or whatever their support channel is. How are they going to know if nobody tells them?

By trying out the games before releasing them, or maybe having a QA process with testers.

[Fingolfin]

The previous eight games got an update today. New patch with fixes?

Did they Fix Eight games?

No they said they’d Fixeight Vimana*….

* not at all the deft pun/word play you made there Sumez you sly bastard but was going for Vimana/mañana

[BrianC]

One of the devs said somewhere on the Steam forum for one of the games that these are closer to being ports than emulation, which is an odd thing to say because they are using a new version of the old Shark emulator, which is apparently based on the first release of MAME or something like that.

The old versions of MAME with the wrong romsets and no sound for some games? That would explain some of the issues.

[Steven]

Still trying to figure out where that weird Hellfire older ROM with the blue lasers came from. Nobody's seen it before, right? Same with this Twin Cobra that seems to have both weird enemy spawns and sometimes less enemies. If anyone has seen one of these before outside of these new releases, please tell me all about it. Like seriously, please tell me. I have some theories, but nothing is certain as of right now. No idea about Hellfire and I'm pretty sure Twin Cobra is just broken, but...

One of the devs said somewhere on the Steam forum for one of the games that these are closer to being ports than emulation, which is an odd thing to say because they are using a new version of the old Shark emulator, which is apparently based on the first release of MAME or something like that.

The old versions of MAME with the wrong romsets and no sound for some games? That would explain some of the issues.

Yeah, I guess so. I'm not really familiar with MAME, as I only used it for the first time about two years ago. I do know that the first release of MAME shares a release date with DoDonPachi, February 5, 1997, which is pretty cool, but probably just a coincidence.

[Steven]

Looks like enemy placement is finally fixed in Twin Cobra. Still not too sure about the widescreen mode and how that works, though, mostly because it kind of looks like enemy spawns might still be a little messed up in that mode. I'd have to play it more to be sure, but I don't really like it because it feels really wrong, so I'll pass.

[Fingolfin]

Looks like enemy placement is finally fixed in Twin Cobra.

Yes — very glad for that. Played three of the four initial Bitwave Toaplan ports this past weekend and noticed significant improvements to Out Zone, Twin Cobra and Truxton (didn’t play Zero Wing at all and likely won’t play that much in future w/ the M2 Zero Wing release from last Summer).

Will be playing Bitwave Out Zone, Twin Cobra and Truxton over the next couple of weeks intending to take some detailed notes to document improvements made since these were released last February: I plan to change my Steam review from not recommended to recommended. Bitwave has continued to update and improve with many patches to all of the initial four Toaplan ports — I really appreciate all of their hard work and commitment to making these Toaplan ports as good as possible.

Kudos to Bitwave and Carl-Henrik: thank you for all of your efforts and for “keeping the faith.” As stated here and in my Steam Out Zone review I had hope that changes for the better would be made! That hope’s been realized and must be acknowledged. I am very happy to do so.

Having seen others here and @Steam the Bitwave developers themselves using the term “ports” to describe their Toaplan work, I’m using that now too (vs emulation). Pretty sure we were all uncertain as to whether these Bitwave Toaplan games were ports or emulation when the initial 4 games were released last February.

These games aren’t arcade TV perfect — nor M2 or Aca Arcade quality emulation — but they are close and faithful ports and they’ve gotten so much better: not perfect and still with some idiosyncrasies — examples being music and sfx are still a bit off* — but now they are fun and much, much more playable.

* noticed when heli’s taking off from carrier after each stage in Twin Cobra it sounds like the heli needs a tune-up: it sounds like the battle chopper’s got some slight engine rumbling/rumbles as if the pilot operator needs to apply choke to engine start up (not certain if helicopter engines have a choke) — yet even that seems to fit w/ the kind of “port charm” vs perfect arcade emulation consistent across these Bitwave Toaplan ports.


Apologies to Sumez, our good sir from Denmaku: got carried away after seeing your “Fix Eight” pun above; only meant to be a bit cheeky calling you a sly bastard. You are always helping others here in a most good natured manner. And your sense of humor is always appreciated!

Edits: will be playing Out Zone, Twin Cobra and Truxton over next couple of weeks and taking notes and then changing my Steam review to recommended; I am super sick with worst cold in years and on top of that conjunctivitis so gonna be moving/playing/posting a bit slower than anticipated

[Sumez]

I think you can sleep well knowing that I took absolute zero offense from being called a "sly bastard"

[Fingolfin]

I think you can sleep well knowing that I took absolute zero offense from being called a "sly bastard"

Well now you’ve done it: you can expect me to call you Sly Bastard Sumez from here on out!

No sleep lost but I do recognize my communication skills/style ruffles many a feather (here and elsewhere/everywhere) so gotta keep it as light and on the “Sunny Side” as possible.

WARNING: A HUGE and Classic Bluegrass Tune Is Approaching Fast!

“Sunny Side of The Mountain” by The Osborne Brothers (dudes who wrote/are famous for “Rocky Top” University of Tennessee’s fight song).
https://youtu.be/kggcVJf1-6A?si=uOAzJ_Tmf77RnEmx

[Steven]

I will continue to call these irredeemable garbage that defiles the very essence of these games until everything is perfect. Not kind of perfect and not mostly perfect. I want perfection and I will accept no substitutes or compromises. I know not everyone can be Hamster or M2 and put out that level of quality, but they should anyway. No excuses.

[Fingolfin]

I will continue to call these irredeemable garbage that defiles the very essence of these games until everything is perfect. Not kind of perfect and not mostly perfect. I want perfection and I will accept no substitutes or compromises. I know not everyone can be Hamster or M2 and put out that level of quality, but they should anyway. No excuses.

I agree with you to a point: it’s not a good reflection of Toaplan quality and design. That is unfortunate. However, Tatsujin sold the rights to Bitwave and it’s up to Bitwave to implement the IPs as they see fit. So at least a good percentage is on Tatsujin for making that financial agreement without guarantees for a certain outcome on Bitwave’s part.

I don’t want to trash Bitwave — I never did.

You are going to give yourself an ulcer expecting Bitwave’s Toaplan games to be “perfection.”

But I know you will do you Steven and I do respect you for that but you might consider trying to contact your Toaplan friends and Tatsujin in order to get the outcome(s) you’re looking for: meant with no disrespect to you, the shmups.system11 community or Bitwave and Carl-Henrik but it would seem that the type of “perfect” Toaplan versions of games you want (and I’d rather have too in a perfect world) are NOT going to come from Bitwave.

Whether or not it is ideal, Bitwave and Carl-Henrik are calling these ports which by their very nature/definition are going to be different from arcade perfection.

I hope you are able to a) communicate with OG Toaplan folks or Tatsujin and “make it so” (Jean-Luc Picard) or b) “let it go” and go play Toaplan on pcb or nearly arcade perfect M2 versions as they — hopefully — continue to be released.

Not wishing to start a war/argument/fight with you Steven — I know exactly what you mean and how well intended and reasonable you are. Godspeed and God Bless and Buddha Bless you and your highest of Toaplan standards.

[Steven]

Believe me, I have been doing exactly as you suggest lol.

It's not even for my own sake; if I want to play these games I'm going to play on PCB if I have the PCB. I just don't want everyone else who doesn't know about MAME or M2 or doesn't have a PS4/PS5/Switch to play these and think that this is how these games are supposed to be. I don't like playing on MAME, so I don't, but at least the audio there supposedly works mostly okay.

I still haven't bought these new ones yet, but I probably will in the next week or so. I'm currently working on the Same! 1P clear and it's really hard, so I'd prefer to focus on that instead of writing bug reports, but...

[Steven]

Bought. I don't know much about these games except for Tiger-Heli, so this will be interesting, especially FixEight. Nobody wants to read my complaining about how broken or not these are, so I won't bother mentioning anything at all here unless there is something that is REALLY bad.

[MJR]

Spoiler

Double post edit double mistake. Is there no way to delete posts?

[MJR]

Something I must mention about Tiger Heli. If you put the game difficulty into "easiest", the enemies fire in much more frequent and aggressive manner than they do in normal difficulty. I have suspected often that the dip/difficulty settings are way off in these releases, but here is the first time it was really blatant. Only way to find a proper difficulty is just to try to play and test each of them, unfortunately.

[Steven]

Yeah the DIPs were not labeled properly in at least one of the previous games. I forgot which one it was. Might even have been all of them.

It feels so weird to play Batsugun without a week of input lag. I haven't played it since Laggy Connection's semi-disaster last year, and although it felt fine at first, then I played it on PCB at the arcade and noticed a massive difference immediately, which itself is odd because normally I have great difficulty detecting lag. Then again I'm playing it here on Steam Deck at 90Hz, so the input lag is going to be pretty low anyway since I think these are capable of running at the refresh rate of infinity while still being their normal-ish gameplay speeds, which is cool.

[emphatic]

Something I must mention about Tiger Heli. If you put the game difficulty into "easiest", the enemies fire in much more frequent and aggressive manner than they do in normal difficulty. I have suspected often that the dip/difficulty settings are way off in these releases, but here is the first time it was really blatant. Only way to find a proper difficulty is just to try to play and test each of them, unfortunately.

IIRC, the original DIP is labelled "Fast/Slow" as the helicopter is faster as well as the enemy bullets.