Toaplan games coming to PC (Steam, GOG)

[emphatic]

I have the ROMSTAR version as well. The first enemies won't fire on the first loop, right?

[MJR]

I have the ROMSTAR version as well. The first enemies won't fire on the first loop, right?

Even the first three ones do, if you don't shoot them, and leave them alive long enough. Eventually they fire one shot each back at you as they exit the screen. But yeah, if you keep shooting you won't see enemy fire in the beginning as they are very slow to shoot.

[Steven]

It seems to be the normal ROM, as the energy container is definitely there this seems to be the US version licensed to romstar, with the "winners dont use drugs" screen on the beginning, which I dont remember seeing on Mame or Bitwave. And it also has the little guy emerging from the ship in the intro.

I've only played the Japanese and hard ROMs, but it seems the US version should be identical to the Japanese version in terms of gameplay. You got a good deal on that PCB.

Difficulty seems to be much better tuned than in Bitwave version which still seems to have difficulty all over the place compared to the Mame/PCB versions.

Is the difficulty in the Bitwave thing messed up? I haven't played it for about a year.

This doesn't really have anything to do with anything else, but I finally found the Japanese version of Vimana's arcade flyer. It says Hyper Voltage Shooting instead of Hyper Violence Shooting, so that means the overseas version is better. Spoilers because the image is rather large.

Spoiler

This does explain why the stage 4 BGM title is Hyper Voltage Wars. The Japanese text down below translates to something like "At the bottom of the memories passed on was a battlefield like a raging flame", which also explains the stage 6 BGM title Rekka no Gotoku. At the top is "Escape impossible!!" Yeah I know that's all out of order with the locations of the text on the thing, but whatever. Overall I think the horrific text of the English version is amazing. The Japanese text is cool, but the English version is the best. It's a few pages back, but for reference, here it is again.

Spoiler

[MJR]

It seems to be the normal ROM, as the energy container is definitely there this seems to be the US version licensed to romstar, with the "winners dont use drugs" screen on the beginning, which I dont remember seeing on Mame or Bitwave. And it also has the little guy emerging from the ship in the intro.

I've only played the Japanese and hard ROMs, but it seems the US version should be identical to the Japanese version in terms of gameplay. You got a good deal on that PCB.

Difficulty seems to be much better tuned than in Bitwave version which still seems to have difficulty all over the place compared to the Mame/PCB versions.

Is the difficulty in the Bitwave thing messed up? I haven't played it for about a year.

Almost all of the bitwave releases seem to give different experience on game difficulty than what I am used to have. They all seem to be harder for some reason. First I thought it was because of the game speed, well, it was, but sometimes and in some games the enemy rate of fire and dip switch settings don't seem to match quite what I am experiencing both on Mame and PCB. I've put all of them into easiest mode to make up for it, but even so it backfired on Tiger Heli, where "easiest" setting was actually the hardest. So, I dont know if its because of mistakes with dip switch / difficulty settings or something else.

Unfortunately, I dont have the time or stamina to really analyze the details to back my claims up, but when I played Out Zone on PCB the difficulty matched my experience on Mame - although I havent even had time to look at what the DIP switch settings are at the moment.. but I did get to second loop rather easily whereas on Bitwave release I still haven't been able to.

[Steven]

Yeah, Tiger-Heli's difficulty is weird for sure. Not really sure about the rest, though, especially Batsugun and FixEight because I've played Batsugun once on PCB and FixEight I think twice.

I still don't trust MAME to actually emulate games correctly, though. The only things I trust are real hardware, Hamster, and M2. Tough standards to live up to, but it would be nice if everyone did.

[FunktionJCB]

The only things I trust are real hardware, Hamster, and M2. Tough standards to live up to, but it would be nice if everyone did.

I would live by those standards, if Hamster didn't refuse to release their titles on Steam (while releasing it on every console under the sun, and even mobile phones), and M2 as well (outside of the rare compilation that did make it to PC).

[BIL]

"At the bottom of the memories passed on was a battlefield like a raging flame", which also explains the stage 6 BGM title Rekka no Gotoku.

My favourite trackname in an already distinctive set. The usual English rendering Like Flames doesn't reflect the scale of "raging fire / inferno," but its understatement plays sublimely off the EN flyer's apocalyptic requiem. "Utterly destroyed by the final war."

[ACE1CC]

Yeah, Tiger-Heli's difficulty is weird for sure. Not really sure about the rest, though, especially Batsugun and FixEight because I've played Batsugun once on PCB and FixEight I think twice.

I still don't trust MAME to actually emulate games correctly, though. The only things I trust are real hardware, Hamster, and M2. Tough standards to live up to, but it would be nice if everyone did.

I find it interesting you trust Hamster and M2 over emulation as both of those companies force 60hz modes on all of their games that aren't 60hz natively. This results in inconsistent framepacing.

I'm not sure about MAME as I don't use it, but atleast with FBNeo you can adjust things like CPU clock speed, analog speed, input latency mitigation techniques like runahead, etc. The games being emulated do run at their correct speed and frame pacing.

You have far more granularity with emulation. And of course applying shaders and filters to mimic a CRT display (I have a PVM one that looks spectacular).

The best feature of PC based emulation is the ability to turn on runahead, which can eliminate a game engine's lag. So if the game you're playing has inherently 2 frames of input delay, you can use runahead to eliminate it. Games feel more responsive and its this feature that makes it better than the original PCBs.

[Steven]

I find it interesting you trust Hamster and M2 over emulation as both of those companies force 60hz modes on all of their games that aren't 60hz natively. This results in inconsistent framepacing.

No, they don't always force 60Hz. ShotTriggers has been advertised multiple times as keeping in sync with the PCB, with the most recent one being here: https://youtu.be/L4-z9VRNKcQ?si=XbERqt7H8dzweiKc&t=9

and Hamster occasionally offers native refresh rates. Also, both of them are emulation.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Arrived today after much delay (thanks to our post office's foolery), and in mint condition. Photo shows it's definitely TP-18 and official board. Plays beautifully, compared to Mame or Steam version.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Yep, it's definitely Out Zone lol. That is a pristine-ass board! Is it the hard ROM or the normal one? If it's the normal ROM, check to see if there is an energy pickup on stage 2 at this location:

Spoiler

Some of the earlier normal ROM versions don't have this item box. The Bitwave normal and common ROMs are both missing this item box.

It seems to be the normal ROM, as the energy container is definitely there this seems to be the US version licensed to romstar, with the "winners dont use drugs" screen on the beginning, which I dont remember seeing on Mame or Bitwave. And it also has the little guy emerging from the ship in the intro.

The USA region Alcon jamma pcb was sold/distriibuted by Williams stateside. I had bought one that came with an English instruction manual wth the Williams name on it. Eventually, sold pcb + manual to another fellow shmupper here on the Trading thread.

PC Engine Fan X ^_~

[ACE1CC]

That's correct they are both emulation but the issue with both the ShotTriggers/ACA releases is you'll notice a consistent stutter with scrolling backgrounds. It's obvious in Garegga and Sunset Riders, to give two examples. This is an artifact from having to force 60hz in both those titles.

[BIL]

That's correct they are both emulation but the issue with both the ShotTriggers/ACA releases is you'll notice a consistent stutter with scrolling backgrounds. It's obvious in Garegga and Sunset Riders, to give two examples. This is an artifact from having to force 60hz in both those titles.

It's the other way around; Garegga 2016 and ACA Sunset Riders have a consistent stutter because they're running at accurate speed. If they were forced to run at the PS4/NSW's 60hz, this wouldn't occur. You can observe this yourself in ACA releases that feature a PCB/60hz speed toggle, like XEXEX, Thunder Dragon 2, and Mystic Warriors.

ShotTriggers/ACA use accurate refresh rates as a rule. For a rare example of forced 60hz, see ACA Tetris The Grandmaster 2. Board runs at ~61hz. Hamster were apparently considering this, but Mihara advised them to just lock it at 60hz. Gotch's ACA releases are another major exception. Compare their ACA Darius to M2's Cozmic Collection.

I wish ST/ACA offered 60hz sync as a global policy, tbh. Technically inaccurate, but I'd rather adjust to that than the (admittedly metronomic) hitch.

[ACE1CC]

I stand corrected. Do you know what the speed of Sunset Riders is? All I was able to find is the game had a native resolution of 288x224@60Hz. Which doesn't make sense if its running at a lower speed, which I'd imagine it would.

[Steven]

If you have a VRR monitor it should theoretically get rid of the stutter... or so I hear. I've never used VRR, but if I could find a monitor that fits my requirements for a good monitor and has it, which is extremely unlikely, I'd buy it.

[BIL]

I stand corrected. Do you know what the speed of Sunset Riders is? All I was able to find is the game had a native resolution of 288x224@60Hz. Which doesn't make sense if its running at a lower speed, which I'd imagine it would.

I'm guessing it's just south of 60hz, like an unfortunate multitude of arcade boards.

I believe MAME runs it at a flat 60hz too, but MAME isn't 100% reliable. Latest version has Task Force Harrier clocked at ~56hz refresh, which jives with the ACA release's performance; but the slowdown routine is unemulated, giving you a lightning-fast ship that runs rings around the enemies. (it's meant to be an austere Hishouzame x Xevious)

If you have a VRR monitor it should theoretically get rid of the stutter... or so I hear. I've never used VRR, but if I could find a monitor that fits my requirements for a good monitor and has it, which is extremely unlikely, I'd buy it.

I'm hopeful for that too, if/when M2 and Hamster commit to the current generation. PS5 and Series X have VRR support in 40-120hz range, IIRC. I think it'll be years from now if ever, though.

[Bassa-Bassa]

When Mame has it at exact 60Hz, it's basically always because the actual refresh rate is not really known by them indeed. It could be either, far from 60 or very close to it, though with other Konami games from those years it's usually the latter. Maybe they measured properly TMNT for Mister's recent emulation and it uses a similar hardware to that of SR, so it could be a better source for this info. Not sure if the emulation is complete there, though.

If you have a VRR monitor it should theoretically get rid of the stutter... or so I hear. I've never used VRR, but if I could find a monitor that fits my requirements for a good monitor and has it, which is extremely unlikely, I'd buy it.

I'm afraid that only works if the source is able of outputting variable/custom vertical refresh rates as well, which is not the case of the PS4 or the Switch.

[Sumez]

I could easily run a Sunset Riders pcb through my ossc for a quick measure? Not sure if it's really relevant to anyone though.

[Steven]

I'm afraid that only works if the source is able of outputting variable/custom vertical refresh rates as well, which is not the case of the PS4 or the Switch.

Just another example of consoles lacking features and being disappointing as usual.

[BIL]

I could easily run a Sunset Riders pcb through my ossc for a quick measure? Not sure if it's really relevant to anyone though.

Do it for science! As payment, I'll write a preposterously gory Gun.Smoke fanfic with discomfortingly violent homoerotic undertones. (I would offer a Sunset fanfic, but then I would be... KILLING SHUMPS FARM ;3)

[MJR]

Just wanted to drop a quick side note that I was able to 1CC Out Zone PCB on default settings on my 3rd try, while I was never able to 1CC the Bitwave version on easiest difficulty!

I still am not quite sure how the Bitwave version is exactly different on difficulty, seems to be lot of small things combined. Item drops feel different, as well as enemy fire and rate of fire, while bosses seem to be taking more hits on PCB instead of dying ludicrously fast like in Bitwave version (yes, that makes it harder, but also more enjoyable imho)

It's almost like they took the prototype version, changed back the soundtrack order and added the missing elements but the "Common" version is still prototype version. I can't really prove it, and it may be that I am completely mistaken, of course. I am trying to put my finger on it why the PCB just feels like better balanced and more playable, and that was one of the possible reasons I could speculate.

[Steven]

Alright, I will take a look into the Bitwave version again when I get a chance. I'm not really sure what the status of the difficulty settings is because I thought they got fixed, but if they really are weird they need to know about it.

I guess the easiest way to test the difficulty might be the sealing distance. I haven't really messed around with sealing in this game, but I'm pretty sure you can seal the towers on stage 1. I'm not sure if the sealing distance changes based on difficulty, but if it does it can be a way to check the difficulty settings.

[MJR]

Alright, I will take a look into the Bitwave version again when I get a chance. I'm not really sure what the status of the difficulty settings is because I thought they got fixed, but if they really are weird they need to know about it.

I guess the easiest way to test the difficulty might be the sealing distance. I haven't really messed around with sealing in this game, but I'm pretty sure you can seal the towers on stage 1. I'm not sure if the sealing distance changes based on difficulty, but if it does it can be a way to check the difficulty settings.

I dont think it's just the difficulty settings, other things feel off as well. What do you mean with sealing?

[Sumez]

In most shooters enemies won't fire when you are so close that you have no realistic time to react. Sealing refers to hovering over enemies (or really close to them) to keep them from firing.

I never noticed that was even a thing in Out Zone (since you can't move into any enemies without colliding with them), but maybe that's just because I have the PCB version where you can actually die on stage 1.

[MJR]

In most shooters enemies won't fire when you are so close that you have no realistic time to react. Sealing refers to hovering over enemies (or really close to them) to keep them from firing.

I never noticed that was even a thing in Out Zone (since you can't move into any enemies without colliding with them), but maybe that's just because I have the PCB version where you can actually die on stage 1.

I knew of the concept, and I knew that shmup was better made when you could do that, but I didn't know some damn academic had invented to term for that as well. It's tiresome having to constantly learn terms for things I already knew for decades, but that's the price for having efficient discourse with other people I guess!

As for Out Zone, those damn foot soldier enemies DO shoot me point blank if I get too close in the PCB version, so sealing won't work for them. I suppose that they will shoot you up close was needed for the maze sections to work as intended. As for towers, I never tested. Interesting.

[emphatic]

The running enemies in the maze type sections that chase you around will point blank you even if you're sitting in their lap.

[FunktionJCB]

The Steam pages for the final batch of titles is now up:

Grind Stormer (aka V・V):
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2590 ... d_Stormer/

Truxton 2:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023010/Truxton_2/

Twin Hawk:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023020/Twin_Hawk/

Dogyuun:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023200/Dogyuun/

[Steven]

I sure hope they put the stereo soundtrack in Tatsujin Ou. It's on the PCB, even if you can't select it there, and it is way better than the mono soundtrack, so I do hope it is available.

[MJR]

A fun true story; I bought myself Diablo 4 from steam spring sale on 50% discount to check it out; created myself hardcore character and played on hardest difficulty setting the game allowed me to play.

One hour later I was bored out of my skull, and I started up Kyukyoku Tiger on Steam just to remind me why I liked games in the first place.

Yeah, I'll be getting this too.

[Steven]

I cannot wait for the glorious and endless suffering Tatsujin Ou brings.

[dmk1198]

Toaplan 4 coming

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2024/03/t ... ming-soon/